What year is my T?

[Alabamacpa55]

I purchased a Touring a few months ago and it came with a 1997 tag receipt that says it is a 1919. The engine number is 6186775 which is a 1922. It has light switch and amp meter on the drivers door panel but has electric start button on the floor. It has kerosine lamps with brass top and brass doors and a Bauer Fatman steering wheel. How can I determine if this is in fact a 1919?
Thanks for any help!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Best thing you could do to help us help you, is to post a photo of it here.

Congratulations on your "new" Model T and welcome to the hobby!

[jeffstag]

amp meter on the drivers door panel?

The first thing I'd check is if the engine number matches the number on the title. You may have a challenge there.

[John kuehn]

You need to post some pics of your car to get an accurate ID of what you have. The engine no. could be out of another T. Could be it has a 1919 body but a later engine or vice versa.
Sounds like your car could be a T from the low cowl era but pics will determine if it is.

[Alabamacpa55]

[Alabamacpa55]

amp meter on the drivers door panel?

The first thing I'd check is if the engine number matches the number on the title. You may have a challenge there.

Alabama doesnt have a title for cars before about 1974. The engine number on the tag receipt matches the engine.

[speedytinc]

The demountable wheels are the early '19-20 style. The top saddle? Was the thru the body mount this early? I dont think so. Top, W/S & side lights fit, except for the brass trim. Cant see the dash or coil box area. Wouldnt be the first bitsa T. 19's have a lot of distinctive features like the Ignition switch & amp meter & wheels, which it do have.

[Alabamacpa55]

amp meter on the drivers door panel?

The first thing I'd check is if the engine number matches the number on the title. You may have a challenge there.

Alabama doesnt have a title for cars before about 1974. The engine number on the tag receipt matches the engine.

[Jim Sims]

From what I understand, the front top bow mount that drops down from the edge of the body was only used in 1922. This may explain the top saddle coming thru the side of the body.

[John kuehn]

According to the T encyclopedia that is on this website the top iron bracket going through the rear panel appeared in the 22 model year. This car appears to be a low cowl 22 model. The T’s from 17-22 are almost alike body wise. I have a 21 Touring and I found dating the T’s in the era before the high cowl cars can be confusing.
It’s the details that Ford added along the way you have to look for in getting your car dated correctly.
If you have a clear title and your car runs and drives well I wouldn’t worry about it. Just go by what’s on the title.

[Alabamacpa55]

[Rich Eagle]

That appears to be a low steel dash. Weren't those only used in 1923?
Rich

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

According to the T encyclopedia that is on this website the top iron bracket going through the rear panel appeared in the 22 model year. This car appears to be a low cowl 22 model. The T’s from 17-22 are almost alike body wise. I have a 21 Touring and I found dating the T’s in the era before the high cowl cars can be confusing.
It’s the details that Ford added along the way you have to look for in getting your car dated correctly.
If you have a clear title and your car runs and drives well I wouldn’t worry about it. Just go by what’s on the title.

Also has narrow arm rests which suggest a '22 body??

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

That appears to be a low steel dash. Weren't those only used in 1923?
Rich

I think the dash is wood Rich.

[John kuehn]

The switch on the drivers side isn’t an original set up. It could be the car started out as a non starter car since it still has the earlier original coil box with the ignition switch that’s shown in your last group of pics. I don’t know the reason the a 26-27 switch was put on the drivers side inside panel. A previous owner changed the wiring around and added a water pump supposedly for better cooling and did a few other add on’s it appears.

[Rich Eagle]

Yep, you are right Jerry. I spoke too soon.
Rich

[Norman Kling]

It's hard to date the bodies between 1919 and 1922. They are very similar. Which way does your windshield open? Does the top part fold to the front of the back? I believe that changed somewhere between 1919 and 1922. I have a 22 Roadster and the windshield moves back into the car. It has a low steel firewall. However it has a 26 engine. It also has a small drum ruckstell but has the later shifter on it. It has a low head. Many of these cars were modified sometime during the past and any year parts which would fit together were used. Also some aftermarket replacements have been used. I just got through working on a 1920 Touring which looked very similar to yours. The windshield folded forward toward the radiator. It had low radiator. It does have the rear saddles mounted on arms which had a 90 degree bend and fit to a bracket behind the upholstery. My 22 Roadster also has that kind of saddles. I have kerosene cowl lights and taillight but have electric headlights and a starter and battery. The tail light has been converted to electric.
Anyway, I think you might have a car which a former owner thought was a 19. Or you have a car which has a combination of parts from different years. It might have been a former basket case and not all parts in the basket were from the same car.
Another thing to consider, is that the assembly plants used up their supply of parts before starting the new model. Some plants built the newer car earlier and others built it later. Also some states dated the cars the date first sold, so cars sold in the fall were registered as the following year. And if some last year model cars were not sold before the first of the year, they were dated when first sold.
Anyway, it won't make any difference unless you plan to enter in shows where they do judging. If you plan to drive at on tours, just leave it as is. It looks better than many which are being driven. Looks like a good car to me.
Norm

[speedytinc]

That appears to be a low steel dash. Weren't those only used in 1923?
Rich

Do you mean firewall? It looks steel to me also. If so, they were an early 23, 23 item AND sold as replacement for wood firewalls from that point on.
There is no dash & the coil box has the switch, which could have been a non electric car originally. The later ign switch was a poor solution to getting the ammeter & light switch. Easily made right. (or more correct)

At what point (year) would one expect a dash mounted switch even on a non electric 20's T? 23 & later?

[Wayne Sheldon]

Something funky here. The three panel rear tub and narrow inside tack strips make this a very late 1920 through 1922 body. The problem is that the no dash panel and the switch on the coil box as a non-electric feature was discontinued by 1920. All open bodied model Ts had the dash panel whether they got the starter or not before the three panel bodies began.
Not a big deal. I would probably call it a 1921 or 1922 because that fits the body better. But be prepared to field questions about the dash and switches. However, you would likely run into other people that recognize the anachronism.
You could later get and install the proper dash panel and switches. That would make the car much more correct, and it it looks really good now!

It can be difficult to understand why something like this might have been done. A lot of cars "restored" in the 1950s and 1960s had wrong year pieces used on them. People in the '50s and '60s didn't know nearly as much as research has taught us since then. Your car appears fresh enough that it likely was restored well after then. But the changes could have been made earlier, and then passed on through a later restoration.

[John kuehn]

To add to the confusion for trying to ID the T open cars from 17-22 I got some advice from Leon Parker about these cars in that era. I emailed him about some body metal details for my 21 Touring and he reminded me that there were up to 5 body makers that made the bodies for Ford.
Include that along with the ongoing changes that were happening in this era and you’ve got a lot of questions when trying to restore one of these cars and especially if it’s not totally complete! Been there and done that!

[Allan]

If it had the pressed steel U shaped one piece running board supports, that would make it a 1922 here in Australia. It's much hatfrr to change a frame out than any of the peripheral stuff.
Allan from down under

[Rich Eagle]

"Do you mean firewall?" by speedytinc » Wed May 18, 2022 3:18 pm.
Ford did not use the word Firewall. The items 3634H and J were referred to as the dash.
What we are calling the dash is actually the Instrument Panel. Item 6602BRX for 22-25 open cars.
What makes it look like a steel dash is the metal strip on the side.
It fooled me.
Rich

[Dan Hatch]

David: I am in TRUSSVILLE. If I can help email me.

2DAACC88-5C6A-48F8-BF42-D3438769AEE0.jpeg (34.02 KiB) Viewed 2521 times

Sent you email too.Dan

[Scott_Conger]

The body with the saddle arms coming out of the body rather than "L" arms, combined with a two-man top, upright windshield and an engine with 1922 S/N would make me call this a '22

Missing instrument panel doesn't bother me, and other than a 1921 or earlier coilbox, that's the only thing "wrong" for a '22 that I can see and could easily go missing sometime throughout the years with no loss to the car's operation after very minimal modification.

nice looking buggy

welcome to the hobby

[Oldav8tor]

David - don't be upset by all the comments. Cars with parts from other years are pretty common and should not distract from the enjoyment of your car as long as everything works the way it should. It's a nice looking Model T BTW.

To add to the confusion, I'll add my comments: the windshield appears to be same sized panels with a center hinge which would be pre-1917. I also notice there is no bellcrank for the choke on the firewall, nor is their evidence one was ever mounted there, suggesting it was originally on a non-starter car. Further evidence it was a non-starter car is the coilbox with the front-mounted switch and the existence of both mag and battery terminals poking thru the firewall. FWIW - 1919 T's had provisions for a starter but they were not standard equipment.

[Alabamacpa55]

It's hard to date the bodies between 1919 and 1922. They are very similar. Which way does your windshield open? Does the top part fold to the front of the back? I believe that changed somewhere between 1919 and 1922. I have a 22 Roadster and the windshield moves back into the car. It has a low steel firewall. However it has a 26 engine. It also has a small drum ruckstell but has the later shifter on it. It has a low head. Many of these cars were modified sometime during the past and any year parts which would fit together were used. Also some aftermarket replacements have been used. I just got through working on a 1920 Touring which looked very similar to yours. The windshield folded forward toward the radiator. It had low radiator. It does have the rear saddles mounted on arms which had a 90 degree bend and fit to a bracket behind the upholstery. My 22 Roadster also has that kind of saddles. I have kerosene cowl lights and taillight but have electric headlights and a starter and battery. The tail light has been converted to electric.
Anyway, I think you might have a car which a former owner thought was a 19. Or you have a car which has a combination of parts from different years. It might have been a former basket case and not all parts in the basket were from the same car.
Another thing to consider, is that the assembly plants used up their supply of parts before starting the new model. Some plants built the newer car earlier and others built it later. Also some states dated the cars the date first sold, so cars sold in the fall were registered as the following year. And if some last year model cars were not sold before the first of the year, they were dated when first sold.
Anyway, it won't make any difference unless you plan to enter in shows where they do judging. If you plan to drive at on tours, just leave it as is. It looks better than many which are being driven. Looks like a good car to me.
Norm

Windshield folds towards the rear.

[Alabamacpa55]

David: I am in TRUSSVILLE. If I can help email me.
2DAACC88-5C6A-48F8-BF42-D3438769AEE0.jpeg

Sent you email too.Dan

Thank you! I just sent you an email. I was hoping I wasnt the only one around with a "T"!

[Alabamacpa55]

The body with the saddle arms coming out of the body rather than "L" arms, combined with a two-man top, upright windshield and an engine with 1922 S/N would make me call this a '22

Missing instrument panel doesn't bother me, and other than a 1921 or earlier coilbox, that's the only thing "wrong" for a '22 that I can see and could easily go missing sometime throughout the years with no loss to the car's operation after very minimal modification.

nice looking buggy

welcome to the hobby

Thank you!

[DHort]

If you could open the door and look down at the floor you might see the serial number stamped into the body. Then you might have the year. I do not know what the area of the body is called. Dan Hatch is also one of the more knowledgeable people on the forum, so you are lucky to have him so close.

p.s. I would say 1919.

[Alabamacpa55]

If you could open the door and look down at the floor you might see the serial number stamped into the body. Then you might have the year. I do not know what the area of the body is called. Dan Hatch is also one of the more knowledgeable people on the forum, so you are lucky to have him so close.

p.s. I would say 1919.

Thanks! I cant wait to pick Dan's brain!

[Chris Instness]

To add to the windshield discussion, the windshield to cowl brackets appear to be the earlier riveted type used starting 1915, as opposed to the later brackets that held the windshield frame with bolts on the side.

[kmatt2]

Your Model T ‘s touring car body is from 1922. The 3 panel back section with the rear 2 man top brackets going threw the body, plus the front top brackets that are dropped down are typical 1922 production. Your windshield is 1915-16 and the coil box with the switch is late teens. It wouldn’t be to hard to change out the coil box to a 1922 type with out the switch and add a 1922 dash and instrument panel with the key and amp meter, going back to stock wire loom and loosing the 1926 instrument panel in side panel. I wouldn’t worry about the hole in the side panel where the 1926 instrument panel once was. Make a pocket with a hidden back flap that goes into the side panel where the 1926 switch was. This is where you hide your hip flask from the feds, it is 1922 and gin is not allowed anymore by the US Goverment.

[Been Here Before]

First off, no did respect to the car or the new owner. But it begs the question, Is the car a bitsa?

The model T was a vehicle with interchangeable parts, so those that survive fall in to questionable realm of a factory with original parts, or a reproduction (re-manufactured) with original parts?

One other possibility...as the cars were shipped un-assembled to a period dealer, the dealer may have assembled a vehicle from extra parts in their garage.

Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2017: HOW MANY Ts STILL EXIST? STILL ON THE ROAD?
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1512690810

[J1MGOLDEN]

It looks like an early Johnny Cash Cadillac, his was a 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, etc.

That T is a 19, 20, 21, 22.

The firewall looks like wood to me.

That would make it earlier rather than later.

[speedytinc]

It looks like an early Johnny Cash Cadillac, his was a 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, etc.

That T is a 19, 20, 21, 22.

The firewall looks like wood to me.

That would make it earlier rather than later.

Yes in enlarging the pix, its wood.