Rear axle binding

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pron022020
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Rear axle binding

Post by pron022020 » Sun May 22, 2022 8:06 pm

I am in the process of rebuilding my rear axle and I have almost finished. I have barely any endplay that is within specs but now there is binding as opposed to earlier when I had a little more endplay than I like. This is with an original ring and pinion, new seals, and original hyatt bearings. It is pretty tight and hard to turn. Unsure if I should run it or take it back apart and pull a thrust washer shim.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by John kuehn » Sun May 22, 2022 8:24 pm

You can pull the axles apart and evenly sand off the surfaces of the brass thrust washers a little at a time to achieve a non- binding fit. It might take a few times to get a good fit. There are earlier posts on the forum with people doing it this way. You can do it with a belt sander while keeping an even surface. There might be an issue with the ring gear fit.
Others will have other opinions I’m sure.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by speedytinc » Sun May 22, 2022 8:39 pm

When in the process did it get tight?
Assembling the diff & axle assembly with the 2 housings vertically everything should turn freely & the axles should be naturally centered in the tubes @ the outer ends. If not, bent tubes, assuming your axles were checked for no bend. You can confirm by rotating the ring gear whall watching the axles turn top & bottom as held vertically. If she turns freely, without bind spots. thrust washers are set fine.
Next step. what inner seals did you use? The neoprene cone type inner seals are way too tight fit & really need some trimming or they will destroy themselves in short order. Did the outer bearings slide in easy or did they need a hammer? The felt outer type cup seals make for extra friction. Many friction points added along the way. At the end of this the axles normally dont move freely when completely assembled.

This is just the axle & doesnt include the drive shaft fits & possible added friction points, which there should be NONE of if everything is correct with it & gear mesh.
When completely assembled the u joint should turn with a wrench. Fingers wont do it. Drag is to be expected, but not binding or noticeable spots of increased drag.
There should be a little noticeable backlash checking @ every 1/4 rotation or so of the ring gear.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun May 22, 2022 8:43 pm

A used gear set might not have the same clearance all the way around the ring gear. I'd take several measurements with the gears meshed in several different positions. If there are differences, you may have to go with a little extra clearance, and be sure the tightest measurement is not too tight. If a used pinion is assembled with a used ring gear it did not run with, they may not get along.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by Allan » Sun May 22, 2022 10:33 pm

"Pull a thrust washer shim"? If this is a rebuild there should be no shims necessary. Whereabouts in the assembly are they fitted? Usual practice is to custom fit the new bronze thrusts so shims are not needed.

If you have not fitted a paper gasket between the housings, try it with one. If the binding is less, you are on the right track. If it is still too tight though, You could remove both the paper gasket and a shim, and try again. Presumably the shim is thicker than the gasket, so the latter assembly process should open up the clearance to improve the binding situation.

Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by pron022020 » Sun May 22, 2022 10:49 pm

Here is some more information and answers.
This is with an original matched set ring and pinion from the same rear end. I guess some clearance is going to happen because of wear.
Maybe binding isn't the correct word, more like an even tightness all around but it still can be turned just very hard. When I started it was very loose but the babbit thrust washers were worn as hell.
I had to sand off some of the brass thrust washer on the passenger side to get the ring to come in far enough for a good mesh. Everything was okay there until I started on the drivers side. In accordance with Chaffin's book I attempted to get as close to zero end play as possible and the way I had to do that was add more thickness. I am running the two steel washers, the brass washer, and a .015 shim. Nothing on this side was ground down. I am now thinking I should pull the shim and my problems will probably go away.
I am running the neoprene boot seals. I didn't have any trouble getting them on but they grip tightly so I suppose friction adds up as well. The bearings went into the sleeves fine without any tools so no problems there.
I have a gasket in between the housings but I don't remember much of if any difference between having one and not because it is very thin.

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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by Craig Leach » Sun May 22, 2022 10:54 pm

Hi Tyler,
Are you using a ford pinion bearing or a modern pinion bearing? I found a modern one that was not machine concentric. I was not paying attention to it and found the ring & pinion clearance changed when I changed the rotation on the pinion housing. drove me nuts ( of coarse it's a short drive ) If you are using a modern pinion bearing set up try rotating the pinion spool and see if the binding goes away.
Craig.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by pron022020 » Sun May 22, 2022 11:01 pm

Original pinion bearing. Most everything in the set up is original save for outer bearing sleeves, seals, and new brass thrust washers.

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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by Craig Leach » Sun May 22, 2022 11:41 pm

Hi Tyler, do you have the radius rods on & tight? If so try loosening them to see if that changes the bind. Just putting out there things I have run across over the years.
Craig.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by speedytinc » Sun May 22, 2022 11:42 pm

RE read my post again. Narrow down the issue before adding outer seals & bearings. Vertical position, assembled W/O a gasket, the ring gear should rotate freely., if a little friction is felt, adding the gasket will add enough clearance to move freely. (This is without the D/S.) Or remove some material from the brass washers, or use a .010 shim in place of the .015 shim. If on the passenger side. (Dont mess with the gear side once you have the gear mesh set.)
Zero end play? Between the axle ends is ok, the fiber washer canl free up a little on its own, but not for the carrier. .005 is good clearance, .015 is too much for the carrier clearance. Out of spec, but way better than too tight if that were the only 2 options. Done. Previously to this, the ring/pinion mesh should have been set up. Which it sounds like you did to know where to place the shim?.

Removing material from the passenger side does not effect gear mesh. (maybe you misspoke) This done on the drivers side, under the ring gear. (Unless you are building a rear end with 2 speeds in reverse & 1 speed forward) The passenger side sets the clearance for the carrier between the 2 housings. Once the carrier is set with the proper clearance, the friction from later parts comes into play.

Once fully assembled it will take a wrench on the u joint or an axle nut to rotate the axles. This is normal, but there should be even friction & no bind points. Your pre rebuilt unit rotated freely because all the normal friction points were worn away.
You should address the inner neo seal as I said. Everyone I have revisited that was not modified was shredded useless.
I have build a lot of rear ends & I think I have come up with the easiest idiot proof methods for myself. Building a good rear end is a methodical set of specific operations. As I recall the books dont have all the answers. Good luck.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by Allan » Mon May 23, 2022 5:29 am

It has been reported on the forum that new bronze thrust washers are thinner than those made available previously, so they need less material removed to set the pinion mesh and less to take out side play within the housings. However, if you have a whole steel washer plus .015" shim, that's way more than I would expect. had previously been necessary to remove. Perhaps an expert eye run over your diff centre is called for.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by pron022020 » Mon May 23, 2022 7:52 am

Radius rods are not attached right now.
I will take a peak at the inner seals and maybe make some mods. It sounds like to me that I might be OK at least if I understand what John is saying. The mesh is good and it is an even tightness all the way around - no binding points. I will still probably take it apart and either pull the shim out or take some material off of it and see what happens.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by speedytinc » Mon May 23, 2022 8:40 am

pron022020 wrote:
Mon May 23, 2022 7:52 am
Radius rods are not attached right now.
I will take a peak at the inner seals and maybe make some mods. It sounds like to me that I might be OK at least if I understand what John is saying. The mesh is good and it is an even tightness all the way around - no binding points. I will still probably take it apart and either pull the shim out or take some material off of it and see what happens.
The D/S has to be perfectly perpendicular to the rear end to set the gear clearance. The weight of it hanging unsupported can give a false, extra clearance. Over supported will make the mesh tighter. The way I combat this is to attach the left radius rod, left housing & D/S together for gear mesh testing. Everything is in the exact position that it will be running in when fully assembled.
The next step is to get the proper carrier clearance with the right side housing bolted down. I remove the D/S & radius rod for this step.
Done with those parts until the axle assembly is finished.(including outer brgs & seals) (unless running 3-1 gears.) Then the D/S has to go on before the right housing.
With standard gears, the rear end is removed from its vertical position to be final complete assembled on the ground with bearings & seals R rods & D/S.


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Re: Rear axle binding

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon May 23, 2022 9:46 am

lots of good advice which would be hard to improve on regarding your issue

the only thing I will add is that since you mentioned the outer seal rubber boots were very tight on the axles, is that they will fail almost immediately if they are not very well lubed. Ideally they would have been installed AFTER the rear end was built, and a heavy-bodied/viscous lube laid down on the seal lip to protect from seizure on the axle before everything got fully lubed from the differential.
Scott Conger

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