Vacuum

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Craig Leach
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Vacuum

Post by Craig Leach » Mon May 23, 2022 9:25 pm

I think I have seen vacuum gauges on Montana 500 dashes in the past. If not has anyone run a vacuum gauge on there model T and know what the vacuum is under acceleration? I know this changes with altitude just looking for ball park figure from hard acceleration to WOT.
Thanks.
Craig.


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Re: Vacuum

Post by fschrope » Wed May 25, 2022 1:19 pm

Vacuum gauges are useful as test gauges, but little more. They can give you a hint of leaky valves, intake manifold leaks, unbalanced cylinders and general condition of an engine.
Bottom line - you will have very high vacuum while coasting and practically zero at full throttle.... or anything in-between at partial throttle.

A little story - maybe 40 years ago, someone was selling them as a gauge to help you save gas. The idea was to keep the vacuum as high as possible for maximum gas mileage.
A fellow I knew had one on an 806 IHC gas tractor. I asked him how it worked. He said fantastic and it paid for itself many times over. He was always kind of a blowhard. When you need power to pull a plow, you are operating at close to 100% power and will practically no or at least very low vacuum. Low vacuum means more power and more work. Less vacuum means less power and less work. To get the field plowed, you need power to get the work done.
As for the Montana 500, I have no idea of why they would have such a gauge. Still, they are fun to watch when you first put one on, but they are soon pretty forgotten about.


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Re: Vacuum

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed May 25, 2022 1:27 pm

Looks like this double of a double-post snuck up.

Fred
the vacuum gauge can be used to optimize ignition timing at a given throttle setting or RPM. If you are running a battery powered ignition with fully variable timing potential, you should be able to squeeze out just that much more power. It would work with magneto powered ignition, but there are only one or two possible timing settings available at speed and I'd think seat-of-the-pants would be pretty good, with the gauge simply verifying proper setting.
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Re: Vacuum

Post by mike zahorik » Wed May 25, 2022 3:27 pm

Recently, made a plate that fits between the carb and the intake manifold. This plate is made from 1/4 aluminum and has a 1/8 inch tube that reaches into the air passage. Just for fun a connected my OTC vacuum gauge with a long hose on it, so I could see my engine vacuum as I drove. It's kind of interesting. When the engine is idling, the vacuum is around 20 inches. Coasting causes the vacuum to increase to 25 inches. Hard acceleration causes the vacuum to drop to 5 inches or less. At 25 MPH I see about 17 inches of vacuum. One interesting point is that at a slow idle, the vacuum gauge needle will oscillate quickly. I believe at this slow speed, the vacuum gauge is actually seeing the vacuum pulses of the cylinders. I thought of installing a vacuum gauge permanently, but changed my mind. I just capped the vacuum port. It was an interesting experiment. Mike


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Re: Vacuum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 25, 2022 3:41 pm

The gauge twitching at idle when connected near the carburetor may indicate a valve issue, such as leaking, sticking, or carbon fouling, or a valve timing issue, or possibly a worn throttle shaft or loose throttle plate. Long shot: A worn cam lobe. A closed throttle in high gear at 25 MPH or so ought to give a very high, steady reading, perhaps 28" or more.

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Re: Vacuum

Post by Craig Leach » Wed May 25, 2022 4:58 pm

Thanks Mike,
That is the info I was looking for. I didn't think to check this before I started this project. I wouldn't want to drill a hole in a U&J manifold anyway. After years of testing firetruck pumps I'm very a where of the relationship between intake & discharge pressure. There is a long formula involved but it comes down to roughly 2Hg = 1PSI so if you have lets say 5 Hg to start with at the intake and a pressure reading of 2 PSI that would be a discharge pressure of 4.5 PSI. I'm only using one gauge so I can only get one side of the story of what is going on.
At a very slow idle in a model T a fluctuating vacuum gauge reading may be as much a result of the firing order as a valve or cam issue because the intake flow has to reverse direction in the manifold from 1.2. to 4.3. cylinders. Most modern 4 Cyl. engines fire 1.3.2.4. and don't have the rotating mass to idle as slow as a model T can.
Thanks everyone.
Craig.


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Re: Vacuum

Post by mike zahorik » Wed May 25, 2022 7:36 pm

I doubt if my engine has a valve problem of any sort. Recently, I had hardened seats and brand new valves installed. The engine has a relatively new Stype 280 cam. The car runs just fine. At a slow RPM, many 300 or so, the average vacuum is about 19-20 inches, but the needle fluctuates 2 or 3 inches. Then as the RPM is increased, the fluctuation goes away. At 300 RPM there is 5 vacuum pulses per second in the manifold, I think that a sensitive vacuum gauge may respond to that. Mike


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Re: Vacuum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed May 25, 2022 8:05 pm

I would expect it to respond at or near the intake ports, but down near the carburetor I would think it would be smooth, or perhaps "rolling" slightly. A twitch, as I said, might indicate an issue. With new valves, a slightly tight or loose adjustment at one valve might cause it, by reason of changing that valve's timing slightly.

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Re: Vacuum

Post by Craig Leach » Wed May 25, 2022 9:25 pm

Hi Mike,
Sorry I didn't intend to get someone else's engine critiqued just get info I should have gotten before I started this project. As I understand part of Ed Winfield's theory on the 2 up 2 down engine was to correct the the firing order issue. Anyway he was successful at beating a lot of overheads that did not.
Thanks again.
Craig.

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Re: Vacuum

Post by A Whiteman » Thu May 26, 2022 5:06 am

Bottom line - you will have very high vacuum while coasting and practically zero at full throttle.... or anything in-between at partial throttle.
Can we clarify what vacuum is referred to please?

My vacuum powered windscreen wiper on my Colonial TT (connected by a tube from the inlet manifold) does two things: It goes well under acceleration and high revs (lots of vacuum as the engine sucks the fuel mixture through) and it almost does not work at low engine speed (no sucking through the inlet = little vacuum). You know the story - dark rainy night, can't see so slow down, so does the wipers, can see even less so go slower ...
At a very slow idle in a model T a fluctuating vacuum gauge reading may be as much a result of the firing order as a valve or cam issue because the intake flow has to reverse direction in the manifold from 1.2. to 4.3. cylinders
Quite right.


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Re: Vacuum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu May 26, 2022 9:34 am

The wiper should work well at idle and low speed with light throttle. Most of them will stall at WOT or near it, even at higher engine speeds. A vacuum reservoir with a check valve between the reservoir and the manifold can reduce or eliminate the nuisance. The reservoir volume would need to be about one US gallon. Larger is better, if you have room and drive in rain often.


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Re: Vacuum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu May 26, 2022 9:42 am

The engine can move a certain volume of air at any particular crankshaft speed. If you restrict the intake via the throttle, the manifold pressure will drop. Opening the throttle has the opposite effect. Manifold pressure will approach ambient atmospheric pressure at wide open throttle, especially at low engine speeds. Exactly what the manifold pressure will be at any given engine speed is affected by a great many variables. Engines that show several inches of vacuum at WOT when under load and running at or above the horsepower peak may benefit from a larger carburetor and/or less restrictive exhaust.


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Re: Vacuum

Post by John Codman » Thu May 26, 2022 9:51 am

A Whiteman wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 5:06 am
Bottom line - you will have very high vacuum while coasting and practically zero at full throttle.... or anything in-between at partial throttle.
Can we clarify what vacuum is referred to please?

My vacuum powered windscreen wiper on my Colonial TT (connected by a tube from the inlet manifold) does two things: It goes well under acceleration and high revs (lots of vacuum as the engine sucks the fuel mixture through) and it almost does not work at low engine speed (no sucking through the inlet = little vacuum). You know the story - dark rainy night, can't see so slow down, so does the wipers, can see even less so go slower ...
At a very slow idle in a model T a fluctuating vacuum gauge reading may be as much a result of the firing order as a valve or cam issue because the intake flow has to reverse direction in the manifold from 1.2. to 4.3. cylinders
Quite right.
That's backwards from what should happen. In the vacuum wiper days, the major criticism was that the wipers would slow or even stop under acceleration. The wipers work off of intake manifold vacuum which drops when the throttle plate is opened. Some cars had a second diaphragm on their mechanical fuel pumps to act as a vacuum pump under acceleration. Try breathing in through a drinking straw, and again with your mouth wide open. That's what happens in the intake manifold.

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Re: Vacuum

Post by mbowen » Thu May 26, 2022 9:55 am

:shock:
mike zahorik wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 7:36 pm
I doubt if my engine has a valve problem of any sort. Recently, I had hardened seats and brand new valves installed. The engine has a relatively new Stype 280 cam. The car runs just fine. At a slow RPM, many 300 or so, the average vacuum is about 19-20 inches, but the needle fluctuates 2 or 3 inches. Then as the RPM is increased, the fluctuation goes away. At 300 RPM there is 5 vacuum pulses per second in the manifold, I think that a sensitive vacuum gauge may respond to that. Mike
A 4-cylinder 4-cycle engine sucks twice per revolution, so, at 300 rpm there will be 600 vacuum pulses per minute, or 10 per second.
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Re: Vacuum

Post by A Whiteman » Thu May 26, 2022 6:06 pm

Yes this does seem to be confusing, so lets think it through.
Bottom line - you will have very high vacuum while coasting and practically zero at full throttle.... or anything in-between at partial throttle.
Following this theory, logically if vacuum increased the slower the engine went then it would become strongest when the engine stopped?
Try breathing in through a drinking straw, and again with your mouth wide open. That's what happens in the intake manifold.
Well, I can only go by what actually happens with the vacuum wipers when I drive my own vehicles. Low engine speed, low throttle, less sucking through the manifold = less vacuum - the wipers go slow. Throttle up and they go faster.

As to the example of breathing in through a straw - you can suck liquid up - even thick milk shakes (by vacuum). There is not much Volume of material, but the vacuum pressure does the work. Breathing in with an open mouth has no vacuum for picking up liquid no matter how close you get to the dish it is in. In both examples the vacuum is created by the lungs expanding - the 'pump' is the same in each case working the same way/power. Vacuum and pressure are affected by the volume (size) of the opening when the 'pump' is the same in each case.

For the example of an engine, the closing of the throttle reduces the opening compared to it being wide open, so why does vacuum increase instead of dropping?
Because it changes the 'pump' power - without fuel the engine dies. The vacuum in an engine inlet is created by the engine sucking air into the cylinders on the down stroke of the pistons. As Miles shows above, the faster the engine, the more air/mixture is sucked in - the higher the inlet vacuum.
The slower the engine runs, the lower the inlet 'vacuum' is because less air is being drawn in by the 'pump'.
The 'pump' in each case is NOT the same between 'low' and 'high' throttle - significantly more power used at high throttle which changes the math relating to the large opening of the throttle plate. So the breathing through a straw or open mouth analogy is not valid.

Just listening to the inlet you can hear the air being sucked through - vacuum present.
Some cars had a second diaphragm on their mechanical fuel pumps to act as a vacuum pump under acceleration.
In the case you refer I think you will find the diaphragms were added to help out at LOW engine RPM where the inlet vacuum dropped.

Once the engine starts responding, the vacuum does then increase. I have spent MANY hours driving in the rain in low gear at high throttle to keep those wipers working. This is the number one reason wipers went electric as soon as they could!


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Re: Vacuum

Post by speedytinc » Thu May 26, 2022 6:15 pm

Your experience is opposite mine also. I had a 57 ford.
@ low speed & idle the wipers worked. @ acceleration they would stop dead.

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Re: Vacuum

Post by A Whiteman » Thu May 26, 2022 6:22 pm

Other issues not covered - the location of the inlet vacuum was taken.
Yes, there is a transition period as an engine accelerates. On deceleration the wipers will still work too, slowing with the engine speed.
Various manufacturers did different things to try and overcome that.
My experience are with 1920's/30's systems.
@ acceleration they would stop dead
How did they run at high engine speed?


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Re: Vacuum

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu May 26, 2022 6:30 pm

vAdrian

The situation you describe is perfectly 100% opposite of what every other vacuum windshield wiper user in the world would describe. I'm not saying what you experienced is not true, but I will say that your vacuum system or your wiper had a problem in the form of a small vacuum leak in the line to the wiper, the vacuum reservoir, or the diaphragm of the wiper motor.

any vacuum gauge put on any car or device with an internal combustion engine, will generally show a higher vacuum in the intake manifold at idle, than it will at high RPM under acceleration and often even at steady state high RPM. With that said, in the case that you site, I would say that somewhere in your system, there was a small vacuum leak which limited the vacuum available at THE WIPER MOTOR at low RPM (low flow) and that problem was somewhat overcome at higher RPM (higher air flow). Vacuum is simply a pressure differential across a conductance path, with leaks or obstructions in conductance being instrumental in the quality of the vacuum or under what conditions the pressure differential will be greatest.

Poke a hole in that straw, then suck in slowly...little or no fluid will tickle your palate. Suck violently on that straw and you'll get a little refreshment (there will enough FLOW in the pressure differential to overcome the small leak). I believe that is precisely what is happening with your wipers.
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Thu May 26, 2022 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vacuum

Post by speedytinc » Thu May 26, 2022 6:34 pm

They didnt. They would completely stop. @ a moderate ,even speed, say 30mph,they moved slowly. Any acceleration, they stopped again.


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Re: Vacuum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu May 26, 2022 7:19 pm

Some things that are essential to get good service from a vacuum wiper system is that the wiper motor be in top condition and free of wear, gummy lubricant, sitcky valves, leaky gaskets, etc. All vacuum connections need to be tight and free of bends and any other obstruction. The wiper motor switch/valve must also be tight and free of any obstruction. If a booster type fuel/vacuum pump is present, it needs to be fully operational or else bypassed. The wiper linkage needs to be free of defects, excess wear, and be properly lubricated. Wiper blade rubbers need to be clean, live rubber, and ideally the windshield will be free of excess scratches and layers of bug goo. Wiper arm spring tension needs to be correct, also. I've had good service from vacuum wiper systems that work properly. They are generally quiet and smooth in operation and most had infinitely variable speeds. A booster type pump with a bad diaphragm can allow air to leak into the system and can allow oil to be drawn from the crankcase into the intake manifold.

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Re: Vacuum

Post by Craig Leach » Fri May 27, 2022 12:25 am

I'm sorry guys I live in Arizona and have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to windshield wipers. My wife uses them so she doesn't have to use a squeegee at the gas station. And I really have no idea what that has to do with engine performance but then I'm digressing aren't I. Squarell!!
Craig.


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Re: Vacuum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri May 27, 2022 8:11 am

Many people use them to smear smashed bugs and road grit across their windshield This gives a more uniform coating of bug goo and also lightly sands the windshield, which provides cool optical effects, especially during those boring, early morning and late evening commutes. Modern beetlemobiles feature rear window wipers, which allow you to smear dust, cat whizz, and bird goo across the rear window without leaving the driver's seat or having to deal with loutish "service station" attendants.


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Re: Vacuum

Post by speedytinc » Fri May 27, 2022 8:22 am

Thanks for this post,Txgoat, you made my day! :lol:

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Re: Vacuum

Post by Duey_C » Mon May 30, 2022 2:35 am

Lest we forget, some used to tell us there is no such thing as vacuum, just a lack of atmospheric pressure. Holy cow...
I'm a vacuum supporter.
They used those silly vacuum wiper motors into the 60's. An old Falcon driving friend commented in the 80's how poor they were.
:)
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Re: Vacuum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon May 30, 2022 7:46 am

There is no such thing as vacuum, and there is no such thing as cold. There is more or less heat, or no heat at all, and there is more or less pressure, or no pressure at all. What we commonly call hot or cold, or pressure or vacuum, usually refers to differences in levels of heat or pressure between two environments. You might as accurately say that your ruptured tire "sucks out" as to say it "blows out".


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Re: Vacuum

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon May 30, 2022 7:50 am

Do you suffer from IRON POOR BLOOD? Get Dr. Grabow's European Vacuum Patent Pills at your drugstore NOW, and enjoy a surge of youth-like pep, vim, and vigor! 100 pills only 50 cents! Guaranteed to be absolutely pure!

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