MTFCA Forum

Yesterday, I saw an imported car with the darkest blue/black paint I've seen on a modern car. I believe it was an Infinity. I'm willing to bet this is close to what Ford used.

There are a few modern brands that have been using solid colors for the last several years. Toyota, Scion, and Dodge are the brands that come to mind. Some of these solid colors would look right at home on 10’s-30’s cars. They are awfully shiny tho... the new paints have a certain sparkle built into them that seems out of place on old cars. I will be keeping my eye out for the midnight blue...

In order to match the original factory paint, the body of the 1915 town car in the thread below was painted an extremely dark 1940s or 50s Cadillac blue approximately 65 years ago when it was owned by the late Dwight Madsen. (It was painted in the body shop of Warren Cadillac in Minneapolis.)

A casual observer viewing the car in person may think it is black but it is, in fact, blue (In person, it is slightly more obvious that it is blue than what is indicated in the photos.)

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1276634284

How much $$ Larry ? I’m willing to bet the original blue was very recognizable as blue……….but with now 110 years ( or in Eriks example, 60 years ) worth of environmental pollution, oxidation, and age to the clear body varnish, it would likely look almost black. Makes absolutely no sense to me to paint a body “almost black” when the fenders are black. You’d be amazed what the Mona Lisa really looked like originally. Just paint it what pleases you.

I was only commenting on a modern car I saw. I have two 13's, and although they are dark, they are still not dark enough for me. I understand that finish used to be called blue black, not midnight blue.

I’d like to see what ford called it. Do you have that in any of your archives?

Extremely dark blues were very common. The sample books of paint manufacturers show them next to lighter colors, so the color is not necessarily weathered varnish, either.

The contrast of dark blue with black may be subtle but that was the point - it wasn't to show off or be loud or gaudy. It was meant to be quietly elegant. This was especially important for formal cars. A bright or gaudy limousine was a clear sign of moral vacuum.

Ford did not advertise its colors. In-house material only refers to "blue ground" or "blue rubbing" and so on. Fords at an early 1913 auto show were described as "blue-black" with black and brass trim.

Other "blue-back" cars include Buick, Premier, Cadillac, Reo, Maxwell and the Chalmers 30.

Other blue color names include "midnight blue" used on the Jeffery Six, "Richelieu blue" used on Paige and Chalmers, "Royal blue" used on the Ford Six, Everett 30 and the Abbott-Detroit and and of course "Packard blue." However, most descriptions of blue are very basic - a "rich, dark blue" or "dark blue" and so on.

Again, opinions….. you know what they say about everyone having one. Here is a subtle example , made in my hometown of Elyria, ohio. Very subtle, huh?

My point being, for everyone’s “opinion” , there is usually a counter opinion. Many of these things are unknowable, and just opinions.

The hood and body on mine is dark blue with black fenders and splash aprons. The blue looks darker in that light than it really is, but,I love it. All the leather and top is black.

That's a gorgeous color, Frank, just beautiful. I think you really nailed it. I remember being impressed by it when you first posted pictures of that car.

Tim, Mrs. Potter Palmer's custom-painted heliotrope Studebaker-Garford limousine shows there are always some exceptions, even if it takes a wealthy Chicago hotel widow to do it. Fortunately Garford limousines came standard with more conventional color options.

Here are a few blues from a c 1910 catalog. The darker blues are closer to what Ford appears to have adopted in 1911.

Slim, you write with a lot of ford authority but I still see nothing other than your opinion, and some aged paint chips. There are maybe more blue 1912 fords around this area, than other places. They are all a bit different and all are beautiful. IMHO

Is there a modern paint number from NAPA, Pittsburgh, House of Color, Eastwood, etc. for the 'Midnight Blue'? I would like to apply this color to my T.

Hey Jay,

People with dark blue cars have posted a few of their recommendations. They are:

Mercedes DB-332 (Diamont Uno 4635 A)
Mercedes DB-904

All of these look great, and from photos of the cars posted you could use them with confidence. Keith Townsend's beautiful fore-door 1911 is DB-332 (also known as Diamont Uno 4635 A), while Roger Byrne's handsome runabout is DB-904. You might consider DB-904 for a car in the 1913-14 range (wheels and body, the rest black) or one of the other dark blues like DB-332 for an earlier 1911-12 car. They might be able to give their experience using the colors.

Here are some photos of Keith and Roger's cars that they posted here before. Also, a 1913 article describing brand new Fords as "blue black, with black enamel and brass fittings."

I have to wonder if anyone REALLY knows what Ford's midnight blue looked like. I think McCalley's book described it as "almost black, blue". The 1911 touring that I'm restoring was painted green in 1949, but was never fully disassembled until now. What original paint that I've found under the green on the bottom of the fenders and some areas where the original paint crept in looks to me more like "mostly black, black". Even in sunlight.

I've read that some speculate that the original blue hue faded away over time. Could be, but it still looks really, really black where it had been protected from UV rays.

I need to decide in the next month or two what color of paint I'm going to use, but I have to wonder if black isn't really closer to original than some of the nice looking darker blues used on other restored Ts from that era.

I've read material somewhere on Ford T-era painting practices, and it looks to me like the varnish and paint used by Ford up to the Duco era was inconsistent in formulation, color, gloss, and durability. They put some crazy stuff in their paint. Besides the inconsistencies in formulation, there were inconsistencies in the methods of application and the conditions under which the paints were applied.

A friend of mine has an F150, about '19 or '20 that is "blue" but almost black.

I've commented previously about the blue color used by Ford in 1911-1913 and I want to include some interesting color covers from 1911 "Ford Times" magazines. I know these covers are artist renditions of the Ford Torpedo and Ford Touring, BUT the drawings clearly show that the blue used on these cars was a dark blue, and not really a black-blue as has been discussed on this posting. Note the color difference between the top, which is black, and the body color. We don't have any Ford color charts available, so I believe these artist renditions are all we have from 1911. I've also included a photo of my Torpedo as a comparison. I hope this helps. Russ Furstnow

Here's a cleaned up version of that beautiful torpedo and touring.

Russ, the 1913 article describes blue-black, so could there have been a slightly lighter shade used in, say, 1911-12?

Were just the bodies in the 1911-1913 era painted dark blue, with the fenders, running boards and splash panels black, was everything dark blue?

Here is a beauty, IMHO. Sorry, can’t give credit , just a pic I stole. I’ll say it again…..why would a company paint a body an almost black color?? It just makes no sense. Age and oxidation make the few surviving examples appear so dark. Again, just my opinion. Still waiting for slim to post some FoMoCo archival info. Thanks for your examples, Russ! . I

This little girl agrees with me !

From what I've seen, old varnish turns brown with age. Varnish-based paint would do likewise. I think any of the older, oil based paints do it. Old furniture can begin to look like it was painted a muddy brown. Newer paint bases seem to turn yellow. Sunlight aggravates the changes. I think it's due to oxidation and photo-degradation. The best way to determine the original color of a very old car would be to analyze a small paint sample to determine what pigments were used. That would get you in the ball park, but you'd still need to determine proportions used and whether the original base was clear, amber, reddish, or whatever.

The jury is out on what color to paint the fenders, splash shields, running boards and hood. McCalley's book and the says that these items "may" have been black but were also painted body color (blue). The MTFCI Guidelines say that runabouts had these items painted body color, but tourings may have had these items painted in black. It is clear as mud, but for me, but I would paint the fenders, splash shields, running boards and hood body color for 1911 and early 1912, and late 1912 Fords would have these items painted black. Just my thoughts, Russ Furstnow

I agree with Russ. There appears to be an evolution on how blue was used, gradually moving to more black parts.

1911-1912:
Overall blue except frame and axles, gray striping

1913:
Blue wheels and body; hood uncertain, everything else black. Early year cars striped gray, later year cars drop stripes from body

Just a note, the color that Keith used is DB 332, and I've updated the previous post with the new and correct designation.

Again, Slim………I see a whole lot of your definitive info put forth with little or no info other than your opinion. You do know factory literature is notoriously unreliable. AND , even worse is a small blurb from a magazine writer. There is another “researcher” who loves to rely on 3rd or 4th party magazine articles and factory propaganda for history. The “ blue black” line could have just as well been “blue over black” or “ blue and black” AND where in any ford literature does it call the paint “midnight blue” ?? Midnight Blue is meaningless. There wasn’t a ford dealer anywhere to go and buy midnight blue, as far as I’m aware of. I’m not from Missouri , but show me some original paint under a hinge or some other protected place, and I’ll believe it. Thousands and thousands of autos painted the same exact “almost black blue” I’m not buying what you are selling.

It’s funny, this club split many years ago over this type of judgment issues, right or wrong, and I’ve always believed Bruce when he wrote so many times over so many decades that some things aren’t knowable. For every fact, there are plenty of contradictions. I say enjoy and embrace your T. If you restore it, do it with love.

Find a dark blue you like. If you want to duplicate original paint's texture, odor, surface characteristics, wear and aging characterisitcs, and color, you'll have to make your own.

I have stayed out of this discussion, because I have a dog in the fight. I chose DB 332 for my car and am happy with it based upon a variety of sources of anecdotal evidence, articles, as well as sage elders who are no longer with us.

Regarding the artist's rendition of the 1911 touring, I have never seen a period photo of a 1911 that shows pinstripe on the flat panel below the seat riser, nor "boxes" pinstriped on the hood. The drawings also show what looks like brass plated steering column and hand brake. I believe that artistic liberties were taken to enhance the aesthetics of the illustration, including the brighter paint color, to make the picture pop!

The 1912 Ford parts book list fenders and running boards for 1911 and 1912 available in blue. Black is not a option listed.
On wheels, they ask that you specify color: red, green, blue or gray (French or Pearl).

That information tells me that 1911 and 1912 cars were ALL blue. I don't believe black fenders, running boards, and splash shields were an option in 1911 and 1912. If someone wants their fenders, running boards, and splash shields black, that is would be their choice, although historically inaccurate in my interpretation.

I'm not picking a fight with anyone, it is just my interpretation of the Ford facts and I chose to be as historically accurate with my 1911 as possible.

My 1919 touring is a completely different story and historically inaccurate. I definitely colored outside the lines when I chose to paint it sky blue with black fenders, running boards, and splash shields!

: ^ )

Keith

My mother always told me to never discuss politics or religion at the dinner table, and I think I'll add "what color was a 1911-1913 Ford painted" to that list of topics to never discuss!!!

Had no idea how frisky paint can get.

Keith, great info on the run boards. Body color makes more sense. I adjusted the list above, but to reiterate, here's the revised version again. Let me know if there are anythings that can get refined.

1911-1912:
Overall blue except frame and axles. Gray striping
1913:
Overall black except blue wheel and body, hood uncertain. Gray striping, later year cars on wheels only.

If someone has a 1913-14 parts list, check the hood and fenders to see if any color for those parts is mentioned. I kind of get the feeling that the 1911-12 cars were one thing, and the 1913 maybe 1914 cars were another. But there are lots of questions about when changes got made, whether running of year end, and how these changes reflected the assembly process on the dawn of mass production.

Price list of parts doesn’t specify a color for 56” tread but specifies blue for the 60” tread all years. The hood section reads,”specify color”.

I hadn't looked at this thread since the two initial posts. Did not know this discussion was going on.
I had made comments about colors of cars on two of Tom Rootlieb's photos threads, totally unaware of this discussion! I hope I don't come to regret that?

Was 56" tread the standard car dimensions?

Corey Walker wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:35 pm

Price list of parts doesn’t specify a color for 56” tread but specifies blue for the 60” tread all years.

Was 56" tread the standard dimension for most of the cars?

Neal-
Standard tread is 56". Southern "wide track" is 60"

Here is a link for all years' parts book, manuals, and promotional material:

http://www.cimorelli.com/mtdl/default.htm

: ^ )

Keith