MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:58 pm**

I just picked up a wonderful original 1916 touring. It came from Bristol, TN where it had been sold new and never left. All original. Original top, upholstery, floor mat etc.. it’s really fantastic and has all the right details an early 1916 should have: tapered leaf spring in the rear, non tapered in the front, 4 rivet rear fender brackets, riveted windshield brackets, rear end with higher drain plug and one half with ribbed backing plate and one without etc...here are some pictures. Truly a Rip Van Winkle Model T:

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:59 pm**

Forgot to add that the gentleman I got it from owned it since 1961.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:20 pm**

Excellent find Alex! Congrats! Thanks for sharing the pictures. I especially liked the upholstery pics. The spark and gas quadrants appear to be steel? Will you consider preserving it? If so, I have some NOS Babbitt thrust washers I’d send you...beautiful specimen!

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:22 pm**

....should have Previewed first

I meant Excellent Find...

Fixed .... Chris

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:12 pm**

Alex
Will you please show us a photo of the oil filler cap?
Does the steel oil filler cap have 3 flutes or 6 flutes and Ford script?
Also, the engine number, or when it was built?
Thanks for showing your wonderful car.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:14 pm**

Jim, I’ll take more pictures tomorrow. It’s an April casting date and the oil fill cap is a three flute with a Ford script. First time I’ve seen a three flute type with a Ford script.

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:39 pm**

Wow wow WOW! That car is INCREDIBLE! I too look forward to seeing more photos of it!

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:53 pm**

Thanks Alex, that is what I was hoping you had for an oil filler cap. A few months ago I saw another original 1916 with the 3 flute steel cap with the Ford script. The touring was still owned by the family that bought it new. I have one also, that was on an engine that I bought about 40 years ago. The MTFCI Judging book says the 3 flute steel caps are recent reproductions, and never used by Ford. I don't think so.

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:44 am**

Jim, The Judging Guidelines are WRONG!

Here is documentation from factory drawings from Bruce McCalley’s encyclopedia on cd rom.

Around 4/15 to somewhere around 5/16, all Fords had a 3 flute, steel oil filler cap with a Ford script. This was an entire years worth of cars, plus all the parts stock that was sold during that time! Don’t know how/why the Judging Guidelines could miss that, especially since its well documented in a reference that’s been around for a while.

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:56 am**

The oil cap issue on the 1916 Ford was adressed about two years ago in the "MTFCI Judging Guidelines and Restoration Handbook". In the current Seventh Edition, the three fluted cap with the Ford script is identified and clear photogaphs of the caps used in 1915 and 1916 are clearly identified in the "All the Same, Huh?" sections of the document. There is no question that the three fluted cap was used in 1916. I hope this clears up any misinformation about the current Guidelines.
Russ Furstnow

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:12 am**

Alex,
Please document this beautiful car with oodles of pictures and send them off to the magazine editor!
Keith

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:37 am**

How about the brake pedal extension. If it’s an aftermarket what brand would it be. Very nice original example that ought to be well documented.

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:52 am**

I am absolutely going to document this car. The only thing getting changed is I am taking the Kingston carburetor off and replacing it with a straight thru NH. I would be very happy to send many photos and info to the magazine editor. Who is it and how do I get their information? I will post more photos here in a bit

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:59 pm**

More pictures, this time with the top up.

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:26 pm**

Alex, How about an ‘open door’ picture of the cowl lamps? Are the reflectors round or square and do they appear to be silvered? I’m very much enjoying your revelations

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:08 pm**

Aleesa will let you know how to send full size photo files.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=946

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:04 pm**

Wow....so stunning.

There is simply nothing better in the old car world than an unrestored car in good shape, wearing original paint, etc. On this car, the paint coming off completely in big patches is atypical of the way black Ford paint (that was flowed on the black era cars) wears over time. So...it makes me wonder if this car is wearing a very old repaint (maybe 1930's). I'd have to look at Bruce McCalley's book to see when they started flowing on paint. I think it pre-dates 1916.

I'd love to get up close and personal with this car and really put my eyes on it. If this is original, flowed on paint, it should show striations in the black body paint but not the fenders and running boards. I've mentioned it before here, but I am utterly fascinated with original paint on old cars and have spent countless hours examining such cars.

I like the spot where the driver's heel has worn through the floormat. Part of what makes unrestored cars so interesting are the places where there's evidence of human interaction with them.

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:14 pm**

Priceless photos. How rare these are becoming.
Thanks for sharing
Rich

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:39 pm**

More photos. I tried to get a picture of the body number. It’s stamped in the wood rather than on a metal plate. It also seems to have a 4 16 before the number which probably means April 1916 like the engine which would make sense. Carb is off but it’s a Kingston Model L. I am putting a straight thru on it as I said previously.

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:42 pm**

I also noticed the hole in the floor at just below the brake pedal. The pedal has an extension on it so maybe he was brake conscious? It would be interesting to see if the brake drum was worn or or scarred due to excessive use of the brake. Just a thought! Very interesting looking at the details in the cars driving history.

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:40 pm**

Nice. Looks like it has a Turner timer.

Posted: **Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:46 pm**

That's a super find !
Can't wait to hear that it's alive again !!

Posted: **Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:42 am**

I'd like to see details of the common sense fasteners.

Posted: **Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:42 am**

Wonderful pictures. I am interested to see pictures of the original front and rear seat frames for 1916. Could you take some pictures of the seat frames with the cushions removed please? I am a bit confused how much woo against steel is included in the 1916 Tourings.

Posted: **Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:31 am**

Great to see this original state.
My 1916 seems to have the original engine and many features to be correct for 1916 but also some unknown hands have worked on it in the past - after all I would say they did not spoil it.
Your T (engine) is just 22 days younger than mine and about 79000 engines built in between - what makes it an average of abt. 3590 engines a day.

Wish you best success in keeping it in that original condition and at the same time having driving fun.

Cheers from Germany (where it had snow tonight - so the T keeps on sleeping)

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:05 am**

Alex said, "I am putting a straight thru on it as I said previously."

It's your car, so of course you can do what you want with it. But I recommend that you consider a Holley G carb for the car.

The Holley G is a great carb, and one which would have been supplied on 16's from Ford originally. I had one on my '15 Touring for many years and many thousands of miles, and they run quite well.

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:14 am**

The G is not only correct for 1916, as Mike says, it's also prettier.

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:29 pm**

I love this topic. This is what should be on the forum as opposed to the nonsense you usually see. As far as the oil cap goes, I saw a nice original at Bakersfield for $40. I didn't need it, so I left it for someone else to find.

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:16 pm**

I appreciate the comments. The carb can always be changed back. I’m keeping the original Kingston carb with the car and putting it on the shelf for now, but I’ve found the straight through to really be the best running carb on my other cars. Like I said it can always be put back on. The only other thing I am doing to the car is putting white tires on it. Holley G carbs are ok but not the greatest running in my opinion. I will post more pictures of details on the car for everyone to see.

Posted: **Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:30 pm**

Alex,

That is a great car and thank you for posting the pictures. More of us need to do this with the cars we have to save the details for all to see. The un-molested originals are getting very hard to find and what's left is not always restored 100% original in every detail so something is lost forever unless we document the ones we have left. You can not post too many pictures of these cars.

Posted: **Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:09 pm**

Beautiful automobile. Thank you.

Posted: **Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:23 pm**

Alex, can you take more photos of the magneto horn, front and back. The trumpet seems much larger than any with which I am familiar. i guess it follows the brass flared bell units fitted to the earlier cars, but it does look bigger than the usual type.

Allan from down under.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:06 am**

I stopped by to have a good look at this 16.
It's just as original as the 15 I picked up 2 years ago.
Alex still has the original cardboard which was under the rear seat, to keep the side cutrains from getting scratched.

Posted: **Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:31 pm**

Thanks for this, Alex. I'm a CT native and would be interested in exchanging war stories with you when I'm back east. I'm from pretty close by in Norwalk where my family still lives.

Posted: **Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:08 am**

Charley-
Please start a thread with pictures of your 1915.

: ^ )

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:07 am**

Fantastic car. I really like the steering wheel. Is it one piece or two pieces?

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:13 pm**

I believe it was the one piece, when I saw it.

Posted: **Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:14 pm**

Excellent car...
Mine was made a month later, in May of '16.

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:47 am**

Whatever happened to this post? I don’t know how I overlooked it back in April. This car is from Bristol, TN.
I have a 1916 Touring that came from Morristown, TN which is about 70 miles south of Bristol via I-81. This car was bought from the original Family, that bought the car new, in late 50’s to early 60’s. The car was restored then but it had all original wood with number stamped in passenger side riser. I would be the third owner.
I was interested in seeing more pictures of this Rip Van Winkle car. Was this post resumed somewhere else?

Here is a picture of my 16 Touring recently. The previous owner put brass rims on the lights but it was kept mostly original.

: Kids like it

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:43 am**

Thanks for bringing this back Robbie. How quick we forget. I thought I had missed it too but see I posted about it in April.
It is just as nice the second time.
Rich

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:41 am**

Kim Dobbins has one that's even better for sale. I think he's asking $15,000. As far as the oil cap goes, I worked with Russ Furstnow for some time to get the correct one entered into the judging guidelines.

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:41 am**

I found another site that belongs to Alex Dragone.
Here is a link, I hope it works:

https://dragoneclassic.com/the-rip-van- ... el-t-ford/

I emailed him so maybe he will come back and expound on this subject.
I am curious if these two cars might have come from the same dealership?
I am going to the garage to look closer at my 16.

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:09 pm**

Very cool indeed! I have a 16 block that was cast 13 days before that one.

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:22 pm**

Looks like mine was cast exactly three months earlier than that one.

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:20 pm**

Question
When Rip Van Winkle brass era T’s show up we usually want them to be left in nice original unrestored condition. Wash them ,change the fluids and make sure they are in good mechanical condition.
But how much polishing of the brass is needed, especially the radiator. Would a original car in really nice original condition look right with a gleaming brass radiator? Just wondering!

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:34 pm**

If you polish a 104 year old brass radiator, it will still be a 104 year old brass radiator when you are finished.

I don't understand the attraction to dirt, grease, oil and tarnish. People did wash their cars. I would have no problem detailing an unrestored antique car including polishing the brass.

(Also, please don't mention the word "patina." We can thank Antiques Roadshow for the proliferation and misuse of that word.)

In my opinion the moniker "Rip Van Winkle" should be reserved for the 1917 Rip Van Winkle touring. That car was purchased new in 1917 by Oscar Peterson of Center City and driven 5.9 miles from the dealer to Mr. Peterson's homestead and parked in a garage where it sat unused for 20 years. In other words, it slumbered for 20 years, like the character Rip Van Winkle, until 1937 when Mr. Peterson died and it was sold at his estate auction to Ford dealer Eugene Princeton. It was still shiny and in new condition at that time. Eugene Princeton started the car and drove across the border to his dealership in St. Croix Falls, WI and subsequently used it for promotional purposes whereupon he gave it the "Rip Van Winkle" moniker. Unfortunately, Mr. Princeton eventually put the car in poor storage, an open shed, where it suffered deterioration until Norm Nielsen and Gary Hoonsbeen "rescued" it in the 1970s.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:53 am**

Isn’t it nice we can all look at the same thing in different ways? There are not any good synonyms for the word “patina”. If we were to strip, scrub and polish that word would it make it any less objectionable?
Part of the joy of an old, faded, tarnished or rusty part is the promise and delight that it can be made to look like new with serious effort and practiced technique. After years of refurbishing hundreds of the nasty old parts into several shiny vehicles that I can take pride in showing, driving and then repolishing and tucking them away I still find much pleasure in looking at the old stuff.
Now with two vehicles that look unrestored and covered with rust and dust and tarnish I have found them as delightful as the nice ones. There are just as many nice people with their compliments and stories which ever I have out. I have a few years on me now and feel I have much in common with the tattered old stuff.
I assume there are the barn find purists out there who will condemn these as not real bard finds but something he just put together. It is easy to find what we like and criticize those who enjoy a different choice.
While I still enjoy the beauty of the shiny new penny cars here and in my garage, I find I can spend hours gazing at the colors, textures and faded surfaces of cars like those shown here. Further there seem to be many others who enjoy them too. Thanks for bringing them to my tired old eyes.
Rich

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:34 am**

What an amazing time capsule. This beauty will certainly be a joy and a remarkable reference for those who need to know how it was really done way back then.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:17 pm**

Well said Richard, thank you.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:08 pm**

Rich Eagle wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:53 am
Isn’t it nice we can all look at the same thing in different ways? There are not any good synonyms for the word “patina”. If we were to strip, scrub and polish that word would it make it any less objectionable?
Part of the joy of an old, faded, tarnished or rusty part is the promise and delight that it can be made to look like new with serious effort and practiced technique. After years of refurbishing hundreds of the nasty old parts into several shiny vehicles that I can take pride in showing, driving and then repolishing and tucking them away I still find much pleasure in looking at the old stuff.
Now with two vehicles that look unrestored and covered with rust and dust and tarnish I have found them as delightful as the nice ones. There are just as many nice people with their compliments and stories which ever I have out. I have a few years on me now and feel I have much in common with the tattered old stuff.
I assume there are the barn find purists out there who will condemn these as not real bard finds but something he just put together. It is easy to find what we like and criticize those who enjoy a different choice.
While I still enjoy the beauty of the shiny new penny cars here and in my garage, I find I can spend hours gazing at the colors, textures and faded surfaces of cars like those shown here. Further there seem to be many others who enjoy them too. Thanks for bringing them to my tired old eyes.
Rich

Very well said.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:03 pm**

Alex, Thanks for the amazing photos.

My engine number is 1222277 (+7040). Very close to yours. Who would know how many days apart?
According to Joerg Walther from Germany only about 2-3 days apart.

Very nice.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:16 pm**

That is just unbelievable!!! Wonderful! Thank you for the photos.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:20 pm**

My 16 is a January car but doesn’t have the riveted windshield bracket.

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:27 am**

Thanks Jeff5015 for mentioning me.
Indeed I was quoting Bruce W. McCalley and the production records in his book 'Model T Ford"
So my T with engine number 1186232 is said to be from April 11th, 1916 (engine cast 4 5 16) according to the book.

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:34 am**

Thanks for posting the Rip Van Winkle T, it’s a beauty

Rich Eagle - beautifully said. I have ( what I consider) museum quality Ts and I have bumped and bruised Ts. Regardless of which we’re in they always bring smiles, stories and new friends.

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:00 am**

Thanks Joerg,

joe.wal wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:27 am
...I was quoting Bruce W. McCalley and the production records in his book 'Model T Ford"

What does the production records say about 1222277?

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:19 am**

May 2, 1916

MTFCA Forum

Rip Van Winkle 1916 Touring

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