MTFCA Forum

I wanted to add this to my post on generators & magnetos, but it won't let me. I can tell that my Ammeter is wired wrong because when I turn the lights on with the car not running it shows a 'Charge'. It's odd to me that regardless the needle doesn't fluctuate with throttle changes. Also, I printed off the PDF of wiring diagrams and mine don't look like them. Maybe the color has faded?

The coil box from Hell....

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:13 pm

The coil box from Hell....

That's not quite encouraging.....maybe it's time to sell this.....

Read the following, conduct the two tests for correct charging/discharging wiring and fix it.

"It's odd to me that regardless the needle doesn't fluctuate with throttle changes." //// That probably indicates that the generator is not working, or the cutout is not workinbg, or you have a bad connection. The ammeter is evidently wired backwards, assuming your battery is connected properly, with the negative post grounded. When the engine is off and everthing else turned off, does the ammeter needle stay in the middle, or very close to it? (The coil box and wiring need some attention, but I wouldn't let that discourage me)

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:24 pm

"It's odd to me that regardless the needle doesn't fluctuate with throttle changes." //// That probably indicates that the generator is not working, or the cutout is not workinbg, or you have a bad connection. The ammeter is evidently wired backwards, assuming your battery is connected properly, with the negative post grounded. When the engine is off and everthing else turned off, does the ammeter needle stay in the middle, or very close to it? (The coil box and wiring need some attention, but I wouldn't let that discourage me)

The needle never moves ( I didn't look when starting) in either direction unless I turn the lights on then it shows a 'Charge'. Which would indicate that it's wired backwards. Otherwise it stays in the middle. The battery must be getting charged because I've owned this since April and it never fails to start and I've never put the battery on a charger.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:13 pm

The coil box from Hell....

Maybe you would like to explain the discouraging remark?

ammeters for your year car are notoriously unsensitive. They rarely show the discharge from coils vibrating, and the starter is not included in the ammeter circuit, so short of turning on the lights, you're not necessarily going to detect anything. Once you're on MAG, if the lights are off, you are drawing ZERO current from the battery.

for the infrequent starts over the last 2 months, and minimal drives you've done it is entirely possible that your generator is not charging and you're still just running on the battery. Sounds like you at least have a good starter and the car starts quickly enough to not draw the battery down much.

folks often don't realize that they can start and drive the car for miles and miles, with the lights on to boot, and not draw the battery down too significantly if it's a fresh battery

Follow Ron's advice, and report back in a day or two as to what exactly is wrong.

CatGuy wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:16 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:13 pm

The coil box from Hell....

That's not quite encouraging.....maybe it's time to sell this.....

Don't take that too much to heart...

At some point, the coil box should be rebuilt. Don't worry about that now. What you should do however, is re-route the wires coming from the timer to the coil box, so that they're not touching, or even near, the spark plug wire terminals. Easily done with zip ties or similar.

You have probably seen this as it has been posted recently, but here it is, again. Jim Patrick

If your wiring looms are of the correct colors, then check each end of each wire to be sure it goes to the right terminal. If they are not in the correct location, fix the. However if your loom is not standard color code, then check each end of each wire to be sure it goes to the corresponding terminal to the other end of the wire. On that coil box, move the low voltage wire away from the spark plug wire so the spark does not jump to the wrong location.

Norm

If your wiring looms are of the correct colors, then check each end of each wire to be sure it goes to the right terminal. If they are not in the correct location, fix the. However if your loom is not standard color code, then check each end of each wire to be sure it goes to the corresponding terminal to the other end of the wire. On that coil box, move the low voltage wire away from the spark plug wire so the spark does not jump to the wrong location.

Norm

The condition of that coil box could explain a number of issues this car is having. Some TLC could probably improve its performance without spending money. If the inside of the box and the coils within it are in the same shape as the outside, it is in serious need of inspection and clean up. The engine cannot run any better than the ignition system performs, no matter how good the engine is.

" Maybe it's time to sell this thing"

Don't give up ! If I can do it ...you can do it! If I can....anyone can! and when you finally get the problem solved and when you can take the time to enjoy the car someday say "I can't believe I wanted to sell this car! I'm having so much fun!

I believe I recall reading on the forum years ago that some types of black paint can conduct electricity. That, if the wooden coil box board, upon which the contacts are mounted are painted with this conductive black paint, it can short out the coil box. Does anyone else recall this? Jim Patrick

Concerning the paint, it's true. Not all paint is conductive, but some is. Gold or silver paint may contain metallic pigment, and other colors might contain a variety of metal oxides, carbon black, and/or other conductive substances. Very old paint might be carbonized from engine heat.

Wire colors are meant to help connect wire ends to their proper position. In looking at the terminal strip and wires coming through the firewall there are some issues to contend with.
The first is that your wire colors don't all match the bright colors in the wiring diagrams. As a result you need to disconnect one at a time and test the other end for continuity. Once done you need to tag or somehow mark both ends. Don't use numbers as they will confuse you with terminal positions) perhaps a letter and then record what its connected to at the other end (not the terminal block end).
In looking at the pictures posted there are some questions about the headlight wiring connections at the terminal block and if the correct wiring is correct. It just adds to the confusion --
--
The coil box wiring looks incorrect based on wire length. Now someone may have corrected an error in wiring the commutator ends of those wires at the coil box but.... I would clean the ends of those wires and check the commutator connections and place wires were they are supposed to be an not adjust for an error

CatGuy wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:06 pm

I wanted to add this to my post on generators & magnetos, but it won't let me. I can tell that my Ammeter is wired wrong because when I turn the lights on with the car not running it shows a 'Charge'. It's odd to me that regardless the needle doesn't fluctuate with throttle changes. Also, I printed off the PDF of wiring diagrams and mine don't look like them. Maybe the color has faded?
WIRE01A.jpgWIRE02A.jpgWIRE03A.jpg

Get your thumb out or you T to Birdhaven Tomorrow. The Coast to Coast German teams are headed to Colfax for parts from Iowa City. Good chance they will travel through Pella Iowa

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:38 pm

CatGuy wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:06 pm

I wanted to add this to my post on generators & magnetos, but it won't let me. I can tell that my Ammeter is wired wrong because when I turn the lights on with the car not running it shows a 'Charge'. It's odd to me that regardless the needle doesn't fluctuate with throttle changes. Also, I printed off the PDF of wiring diagrams and mine don't look like them. Maybe the color has faded?
WIRE01A.jpgWIRE02A.jpgWIRE03A.jpg

Get your thumb out or you T to Birdhaven Tomorrow. The Coast to Coast German teams are headed to Colfax for parts from Iowa City. Good chance they will travel through Pella Iowa

They’re in Iowa already? I would have to be tied up.

Catguy
The Ammeter needle not moving when the engine is revved up is an indication of yet another charge/discharge circuit wiring problem.
It is those five pesky charge/discharge circuit wires that are commonly wired incorrectly.
It usually takes about five minutes to correct these problems.
That assumes of course that your listening?
Ron Patterson

Ron Patterson wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:36 am

Catguy
The Ammeter needle not moving when the engine is revved up is an indication of yet another charge/discharge circuit wiring problem.
It is those five pesky charge/discharge circuit wires that are commonly wired incorrectly.
It usually takes about five minutes to correct these problems.
That assumes of course that your listening?
Ron Patterson

I’m listening….just getting more and more overwhelmed with this car by the day….

It looks to me like your car has a number of problems that may have simple cures. For instance, the coil box wiring has the primary wires touching the spark plug wires. That would probably make a brand new car run rough. The cure is simple: Move the wires away from each other. The generator problem may also have a very simple and inexpensive cure. It's likely that your car has a number of bolts and screws that may need tightened. Most Ts need many parts on the chassis and body lubricated. This kind of attention is not expensive or difficult to do, and it can make a dramatic difference in how the car performs. I've bought many old cars, some from junkyards, that would not run at all. In many cases, a little effort and a small outlay of cash got them in good running order.

CatGuy wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:09 am

Ron Patterson wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:36 am

Catguy
The Ammeter needle not moving when the engine is revved up is an indication of yet another charge/discharge circuit wiring problem.
It is those five pesky charge/discharge circuit wires that are commonly wired incorrectly.
It usually takes about five minutes to correct these problems.
That assumes of course that your listening?
Ron Patterson

I’m listening….just getting more and more overwhelmed with this car by the day….

You eat an elephant one small bite @ a time

Way back in the very early sixties, the harnesses that were available then did not use the correct color codes, and that is what it looks like you have to me. I suggest you buy all new harnesses for your car, and it should make life easier for you.
I went a step further when I did my car. I found the current harnesses were not up to the originals, so I had a local wiring company copy original patterns I supplied them with, and they even wove in the Ford tags like original.

I don't believe there is mix of good and somewhat surly advice. I believe the message is...before you do anything else...get a voltmeter/continuity meter and wring out each wire to a known wiring diagram.. From there your experiences just might take on a different metric.

I'll share a very recent story...

My second son decided that getting the 15 out of my stable and into his would be a whole lot more enjoyable than on the reading of a will to change location.

Gung Ho he got into everything immediately, a lot more than the basic, 'bringing a T out of mothballs' stuff found on this forum. He wanted the radiator out of the way to perform a full flush and get at a slow weep Welch plug and to do so he dropped the coil box from the dash to get the rad rod out of the way from that end.

Life was good, lots of father/son on line dialog as he worked through things and wanted my advice/nod.

So I get a call the other day...Hey Dad, you really screwed up! I lost hours trying to start this thing this morning and I had it running the other week! I scratched my head and everything was as before, or so I thought, he said. I did not take a picture of the coil box wired so I went on the internet and wired the coil box that way, but now it didn't run. I looked at the wiring diagram troubleshooting, and you know? You had two wires on the timer reversed! I swapped them to be right, and the car fired right up!

Moral of the story? In the 25 years I've owned the 15, I never once changed any wires, except the one time I rebuilt the coil box to not have carbon tracks yet matched wire for wire on hook up as I taped them and marked them...I never once questioned wiring...it actually still has the original timer in it that it came to me with only ever needed cleaning.

Homework to son...you are going to come over to my house, I'll supply the meter, and you are going to wring out every wire on the 19 Hack against a diagram, and we are never going to have this discussion again.

Scott,
I had a charging issue just like yours... backwards ammeter gauge and no charge visible on ammeter needle.
Backwards ammeter because it's a (+) positive ground gauge. Rewire it or live with it.
My Generator was not showing a charge because it was set to 4 amps on the bench by the rebuilder. So mine is set too close to neutral. Yours could be just a 3rd brush adjustment like mine is.
Good luck and have fun working on your car!

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=29441

Scott, check out the above link to check out my journey thru electrical perdition.

Dan

that's pretty much the exact advice I offered 6 weeks ago and had my arse handed to me as "throwing $ at a problem without understanding it". It was good advice then, and I still think it's pretty good advice...I guess it's either all about the delivery or all about the messenger, I suppose

Even so, printing out the document that Ron provided and testing as it directs, would have this particular issue resolved very quickly

I think replacing the wiring, coil box wood for plastic, and the junction block is best. Rewire according to diagram and diagnostic test only if an issue pops up.
Ron's article is excellent and should be in everyone's library.

Professor Fate wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:28 am

I think replacing the wiring, coil box wood for plastic, and the junction block is best. Rewire according to diagram and diagnostic test only if an issue pops up.
Ron's article is excellent and should be in everyone's library.

Thats an old repop harness. My concern: is, are the ends soldered or just crimped? Crimp only connections tend to fail over the long term. I have had some cheaper made harnesses & soldered all the connectors before installing.