MTFCA Forum

I have a New Day timer made by Tip-Top Timers of Spokane Valley, Washington. In the past two and a half years I've put 5400 + miles on the cap and brush. I thought it might be helpful to others to show what the timer cap and brush looks like after that use.

Wear on the cap contacts is minimal and although the brush is slightly worn, there is no reason I can't put it back on the car. In my opinion, Tip-Top makes a quality unit that gives good service. In addition to the New Day I believe they make Anderson Timers but I have no experience with them.

very useful post, Tim

I had no idea the new New Day timers held up so well

thank you

I have run New Day timers on my TT for 3 years and the 26 RPU for 5 years. Clean and Scotch bright pad the contacts a couple times a year and drive them.

Can you give us the contact info to order them?

I know there was a bad run of repop timers some years ago, I believe they had a "S" on the cap. Tip Top is a different company and in my opinion comes as close to the quality of the originals as you can get.

Properly adjusted coils are necessary to get good service from the timer. Poorly adjusted coils will destroy a new timer in short order. I believe that running on magneto is best for the timer. If the timer and coils are adjusted right, there will be little or no current flow at the timer contacts when contact is made and broken when running on magneto. No current flow, no arcing.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:46 am

Properly adjusted coils are necessary to get good service from the timer. Poorly adjusted coils will destroy a new timer in short order. I believe that running on magneto is best for the timer. If the timer and coils are adjusted right, there will be little or no current flow at the timer contacts when contact is made and broken when running on magneto. No current flow, no arcing.

I had never thought of that. Makes sense and sounds like a very valid point.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:46 am

Properly adjusted coils are necessary to get good service from the timer. Poorly adjusted coils will destroy a new timer in short order. I believe that running on magneto is best for the timer. If the timer and coils are adjusted right, there will be little or no current flow at the timer contacts when contact is made and broken when running on magneto. No current flow, no arcing.

I totally agree. A hi amp draw will arc & burn up a new day. One fellow has gone thru 3 timers, not getting more than 17 miles on each. We will be checking into the problem soon. My first thought was a coli adjustment issue. We shall see.

For what it's worth, I had my coils rebuilt by Ron Patterson when I restored the car and had them re-checked by Ron last winter after 4800 miles or so in service. If properly adjusted coils are a key to having a long-lasting timer then I lucked out. My only question is, since the timer is switching either battery voltage or magneto output TO the coils, why would the coil output make that much difference? The output goes from the coil direct to the spark plug, not back to the timer. Is an "improperly adjusted" coil capable of drawing that much more current?

The coil primary draws substantial current, and that current flows to the primary via the timer contacts. Poorly adjusted coils will draw more current than they ought to, which shortens the timer's service life. The coil secondary output is not a major factor. The timer switches the coil primary, and it is affected by the amount of current the coil primary draws.

When running on battery, ***** battery current is available to the coil primary as soon as the timer contact closes. The coil will draw current when the timer contact first closes and before the coil points open. When running on battery, full battery current will be available to the coil primary at the\when the timer contact closes and for as long as the timer contact remains closed, and the timer contact will most likley open while some coil primary current is flowing, depending on whether or not the coil points are open or closed at that instant. When running on magneto, a series of discrete current pulses is available, rather than a continuous current supply from the battery. This makes it possible for the timer contacts to operate on magneto with little or no current load when the timer contacts open and close. That will give maximum timer life and maximum coil point life, among other advantages.

Do not forget that the secondary (high tension circuit) get it's ground via the same terminal of the coil and hence via the timer as well.

John

I'd bet that 17 miles to tear up a face-style timer (3 times no less!!) will have more to do with a cam shaft sticking out too far and the brush grinding into the case before I'd believe electrical arcing is eating it up. Arcing damages these things over time, but you are describing lightning, not coils!

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:52 pm

John

I'd bet that 17 miles to tear up a face-style timer (3 times no less!!) will have more to do with a cam shaft sticking out too far and the brush grinding into the case before I'd believe electrical arcing is eating it up. Arcing damages these things over time, but you are describing lightning, not coils!

That is on the list to check. Timer hitting, possibly from the cam thrusting forward.
The guy only mentioned serious arcing & claims no digging into the timer face.
We will be the judge. Another question is running on mag or battery.
Thank you for your input here.

A bad set of coil points ruined my New Day Timer, as I eventually found out. I put another, new, New Day on and it ruined it in a couple of days. The damage to the timer was clearly caused by arcing, not mechanical rubbing. The problem began when one coil lost one of its platinum point contacts. It continued to make contact on the blue steel spring, but was way out of spec. Attempting to adjust the coils by sound further aggravated the problem. Correcting the problem with the point set helped a lot, and adjusting the coils by how the engine ran helped some more. Adjusting the coils with an ECCT restored the engine performance and stopped the timer issues.

Interesting information and good to know. For what it's worth, my car is run 99% on mag which may help to explain the condition of the timer. I've never heard anyone say that timers lasted longer when run on magneto compared to battery so some may want to take note.

I should add that during my engine assembly a centering tool was used to properly position the timer cover on the camshaft. Whatever the reason, my new New Day is holding up great! I wonder how other timers compare when exposed to the high current situations described.

I wonder Scott, what is "sticking out too much." Is there an optimum measurement that should not be exceeded?

Running on mag has got to be a huge factor. Gets me thinking to check my new day. I run primarily on battery for the infinite spark adjustment. I have several thousand miles on it, but haven't checked it since I have had no problems.

There wouldnt be a specific clearance dimension. With the brush pushed in fully & brush body, must be of less height than the timer face. If the timer dances whall running, you have an obvious problem. Seen it.
Also a consideration is this clearance when the cam is in it's forward thrusted position.

Tim

if the front cam bearing is cut correctly to be dead-center on it's retaining bolt, it is almost impossible to be wrong, or too far out. That said, some reground cams do not "retain" on the bearing and require a thrust "kit" that dealers sell.

If the new cam bearing is not carefully cut front/back relative to the bolt "divot" in the bearing shell, you can have the cam either sunk back or standing too proud of where it belongs. You see that first when fitting the cam gear nut and the nut's seal surface either fails to reach the seal or is so far forward of the casting that a washer must be put on the cam stub to push the roller/flapper assy forward away from the nut's seal surface. This also happens if a too-thick cam gear is put on. The roller/flapper will grind on the edge of the seal area and cause all sorts of problems. The repro APCO was sensitive to this and they even sold a little "spacer" to move it forward a little so that it wouldn't foul.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:57 pm

When running on battery, full battery current is available to the coil primary as soon as the timer contact closes. The coil will draw its maximum current at that instant, when the timer contact first closes and before the coil points open.

On the contrary, because the coil is an inductive load, current is at its minimum when the timer contacts close. A correctly adjusted coil takes about 3.5ms to reach its peak current at 6V, and for 12V the time taken is about 2ms. The timer contacts have been closed for some time therefore, before maximum current is reached, and thus arcing is minimised. The above waveform shows coil current vs. time when fed from a 6V supply and a simulated timer. 0ms is when the timer makes contact, and 6ms is when the timer opens. The coil has been adjusted to fire at 3.5ms since this is when the core reaches saturation. (By adjusting all four coils to take an equal amount of time to fire ensures smooth running, and is the principle behind the ECCT).
And before anyone says the coil under test is improperly adjusted because of the 4A current, that is the peak current - not the average as shown on an ammeter, which will be closer to 1.3A.
And finally, as someone who has run mechanical timers on 6V battery for about 40,000km, electrical wear has never been a problem.

The arcing problem with new day timers is @ the trailing edge. When the brush leaves the contact.
I suspect primarily running DC.

I have one T which on which the magneto stopped working about one mile after I installed a rebuilt engine and transmission. I drove it for about 10 years using only a 6 volt battery with an old brown New Day timer. I bought that car about 1989 and replaced the magneto around 2,000 with one I rewound, and I recharged the magnets. I went on several one week tours as well as many one day tours during that 10 years. Never did any thing to the new day timer. The same timer is still on the car and has been running on magneto since I fixed it. I have no idea how old the timer was when I bought the car. I wiped out the timer a few times.
I think one reason they go bad is from running on a 12 volt battery instead of the original 6 volt. This will give a larger arc when the first contact is made at the timer.

I adjust my coils to spark at 1.5 amp on an analog AC ammeter.
I do agree that if the coils and timer are set to spark at the middle of the segment rather than when first contact is made, the timer will last longer.
Norm

I had severe burning/pitting of the timer body material at both leading and trailing edges of the timer contacts. Ideally, the timer physical contact would be initiated and broken with no electrical load applied. That would be a neat trick, especially the intial contact, when operating on DC.

I stand corrected, re: maximum primary current. I believe that coils were once referrred to as "tanks" due to the inductive effect. The ramp-up of primary current is probably what makes the mechanical timer practical. The fact remains that a New Day type timer can be damaged due to heavy arcing in a very short time when paired with defective or badly adjusted coils.

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:10 pm

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:52 pm

John

I'd bet that 17 miles to tear up a face-style timer (3 times no less!!) will have more to do with a cam shaft sticking out too far and the brush grinding into the case before I'd believe electrical arcing is eating it up. Arcing damages these things over time, but you are describing lightning, not coils!

That is on the list to check. Timer hitting, possibly from the cam thrusting forward.
The guy only mentioned serious arcing & claims no digging into the timer face.
We will be the judge. Another question is running on mag or battery.
Thank you for your input here.

You called it.

The Thursday T party gang got a look @ the problem. There is actually very little arcing.
The brush holder is a beautiful aluminum machined billet with a carbon brush.
There is rubbing of the brush body to the timer face.The cam sticks out too far. probably thrusting forward.
We will be looking @ the cam bearing retaining pin as a possible issue or bearing hole location.
The bearing should fit the cam well. The cam is a new Stipe "Montana 500 cam"

Not enough attention paid during installation.

If your brush holder is contacting the timer face, you have a problem. There has to be clearance at all times to allow the brush to "float" on its spring. The brush needs to fit the holder correctly, also. It needs to be able to move forward and backward freely with as little side play as is practical. As the brush wears down, it will increasingly tend to run at an angle to the brush holder and timer face and tend to bind in the brush holder, and it will lose spring pressure.

Any timer can have issues if there is an issue with the cam, timing cover off center, spacing and wiring issues.
When there isn’t any issues the New Day ( Tip Top ) timer is in the top 3. The Roller timer, Anderson and New Day in my view. Yes there are others but these 3 are the best as far as originality is concerned. And the simplest.

In 2019 I replaced the timer with a New Day on my 26 touring. When I started her up, the New Day was doing the hula, so I ordered two brass shields and cut out the centers for the modern oil seal, The shields acted as a washers that hold the timer away from the brush keeping it from doing the hula, problem solved.

The manufacturer recommends grease for the first 50 miles on a brand new one purchased from them. I was wondering if anyone knew why and if that was important to do or not? I just got a new one in the mail today.

My Father told me years ago that people would use a thin coat of Vaseline every so often in the New Day timers in that era.

I've been using New Day timers for way over 50 years. I remove it every three thousand miles or so, and blow out the dust, and go over the contacts with a piece of fine sandpaper, and it's good to go for another several thousand miles. I've never used one of Tom's timers yet, as I have a pile of originals.

Original Smith wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:17 am

I've been using New Day timers for way over 50 years. I remove it every three thousand miles or so, and blow out the dust, and go over the contacts with a piece of fine sandpaper, and it's good to go for another several thousand miles. I've never used one of Tom's timers yet, as I have a pile of originals.

Hey Larry...
Sadly on my '25/26 Fordor I didn't have that kind of luck. Supposedly it was the "new-new" version ( no letter "S") so I figured ok I try it. I had to do the same procedure as you mentioned, BUT every 250 miles or so! So off it went once I finally found another of the now rare TW timers. Now it runs like a top with no issues. All 3 of mine do. I just clean them every oil change, sometimes every other change. I love them.

Tim Wrenn has said a number of times that he had a problem with a new Newday timer. He has repeatedly posted pictures that I presume are from this timer. Here is the picture that Tim Wrenn has repeatedly posted. I would like to point out that this in NOT a brush from the timers made by Tip Top Timers.

Tom_Carnegie wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:01 am

Tim Wrenn has said a number of times that he had a problem with a new Newday timer. He has repeatedly posted pictures that I presume are from this timer. Here is the picture that Tim Wrenn has repeatedly posted. I would like to point out that this in NOT a brush from the timers made by Tip Top Timers.

Tom, that's good to know! That can be a problem in this hobby, locating the "right thing" from the right folks! What I bought was from a "regular vendor". Apparently someone's figured out a way to make a good timer even better then. That's good with the lack of the TW timer availability. Thanks for the update.