Running with out idiot lights.

[Been Here Before]

The question "RUNNING W/O AMMETER?" got me thinking.

I realize that the forum is comprised of old and new owners of a Model T Ford. And the purpose of the forum is to share information and experiences. To help answer questions that are the results of observations and operating problems.

The Model T as designed is a basic vehicle. Originally it had no instruments to monitor motor functions. Then about 1917, the generator and starter were added with an amp meter to up grade the car. And an ammeter was added to show the operation of the generator.

But for the life of the car, the factory did not include a temperature gauge, oil pressure or monitoring gauge. The only oil monitoring was in the form of the crankcase being half empty or half full by petcocks that were in an out of the way place.

So a car that was designed to go from here to there, and providing little to no information on the health of the motor, my question is, how long would such a vehicle last, if constructed in 1908, and how long would such a designed car last in the 21st century?

[JTT3]

George if your question is about engines that have not been rebuilt and only maintained with no major internal changes, then I would say quite a few. I have no data to prove that other than observation over decades. If you’re allowing major changes but not rebuilt rather refurbished, even more. If your allowing total rebuilt components, maybe in the 100k ++ around the world. I venture to say that the model T may be the largest 100 years old cars being the vast majority of antique cars that are still being used & loved. As a care taker of a very early T, that the engine has not been rebuilt but maintained, that is all conjecture on my part but I think that it is true

[Rich P. Bingham]

I think George is implying that full instrumentation is conducive to motor longevity. For the knowledgeable and attentive driver, that's probably so. On the other hand it seems we've come full circle. "Check engine" light came on in my 2011 F-150 the other day. I raised the hood, and sure enough, it was still there.

Required a techie with computer gizmos to determine the "chips" that control various functions were upset with each other and not communicating. Needed a re-boot (or a boot in the ass?) for them to get over their snit and go back to work. $300., please !

[TXGOAT2]

How long a car will last depends primarily on how it is handled and maintained. That was true in 1909 and it is true today. Operating conditions also play a signficant role, and so do conditions under which the car is stored when not in use. Severe operating conditions take a toll on any car, and poor maintenence will destroy any car. Many people who never "hot rod" a car nonetheless manage to routinely abuse it by poor operator habits. Poor maintenence combined with severe operating conditions and abusive handling will dramatically shorten the useful lifespan of any car. A Ford T owner who followed the the instructions in the manual could expect to get good service from a T, all things considered. Severe operating conditions can be offset to a substantial degree by careful maintenence and rational handling of the car. A simple and effective air cleaner would have added a lot of useful life to a great many Model Ts. A transmission cover screen would also have been a very worthwhile addition. As for gauges, Model Ts had no need of an ammeter prior to the starter era, and no T ever had any oil pressure to measure. A reliable temperature gauge might have been worthwhile, but they were not common on early cars, and Ford's lack of one was not exceptional. An alert T driver could detect overheating readily without a gauge. Fords did not have a factory temperature gauge or oil pressure gauge until 1932. Model As did have an oil pump, but they did not have direct pressure feed to any engine parts, except perhaps the cam bearings (?) and they did not have a factory temperature gauge. The Model A featured a gas gauge. No T ever did, to my knowledge.

[TRDxB2]

How long would they last without idiot lights in the past? Not many are left. Cars used to be deemed as a money pit when they had 60,000 t0 70,000 miles. Today we don't even blink at that - its now about 120,000 and even more depending on manufacturer.

The 21st Century (2001-2100), so far, is somewhat limited to current technology. Current auto's have computers analyzing car condition and just need to display problems on a visual display (no idiots lights). There even has been an issue with reporting car condition, even driver abuse, via the Cloud and/or have the car shut down automatically. I know for a fact that this was a controversy for John Deere equipment 15 years ago, and is an option many times selected by large farms with employed drivers. Hybrid & Electrics will have their own displays on battery status - who knows maybe by 2050 cars may be making an appoint with the dealership and drive themselves there for maintenance while the owner is asleep.

[Mark Gregush]

"appoint with the dealership" I think that may already be an apt or function of some brands that are connected in someway to the dealer or factory computers.

[TXGOAT2]

By 2050, there will be no drivers. There will be no adults. Cars will have become ultimate Alexas, and they will will make all decisions and will perform or coordinate all approved management/assessment/fullfillment operations. Humans will be placed in hive-like, automated 24-hour daycare centers where their needs will be continually assessed biometrically. Needs fulfillment decisions will be made by special, expert AI mobile devices and fulfillment will be dispensed, if deemed appropriate, by specialized robotic careproviders. If needs exceed the adjusted social worth of the individual, the life event sequence will be terminated and the bio-residue will be recycled. Qualified needs will be met. Qualified, approved wants may be provided if the biounit's social integration score is deemed sufficient by the currently valid Master Algorithm. Non-approved needs or wants will be rejected. Everyone will be happy, with full equity in an all-encompassing and fully-fair, whole-life system. Any biounit displaying unhappiness or other non-approved behavior will receive compulsory adjustment or be terminated.

[Norman Kling]

I think TXGOAT has a few things wrong! By 2050 there will be a worldwide computer and internet crash and things will go back to the pre-Columbian type times. No one will have any idea of history after all the records will have been erased by the present generation and everything will have been stored on line. Those who can live off the land like the Amish, will survive. Those who live in an artificial lifestyle will perish. Hand pump wells and windmills will provide water, or those who live near rivers will do OK. Many people will become wanderer gatherers. Sail boats and horses will be used for transportation as well as walking.
But us old timers might not live to see those times.
Norm

[TRDxB2]

For a more pessimistic view - remember the movies Soylent Green and 1984
PLOT "By 2022,[3] the cumulative effects of overpopulation, pollution and an apparent climate catastrophe have caused severe worldwide shortages of food, water and housing. There are 40 million people in New York City alone, where only the city's elite can afford spacious apartments, clean water, and natural food. The homes of the elite are fortified, with private security and bodyguards for their tenants. Usually, they include concubines (who are referred to as "furniture" and serve the tenants as slaves). The poor live in squalor, haul water from communal spigots, and eat highly processed wafers: "Soylent Red," "Soylent Yellow," and the latest product, far more flavorful and nutritious, "Soylent Green."

Best read the rest yourself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

[Scott_Conger]

...from Model T ammeters to Soylent Green in 8 short posts ...that has to be some sort of record

only on the Forum, where great advice abounds

[J1MGOLDEN]

I was told on a recent tour that running without turn signals is a violation here.

I have not checked the Motor Vehicles laws website yet for a confirmation.

They are very good to have though.

One more detail, the ammeter, battery, starter, and generator did not appear until 1919, but the Non-Electric Model T was available through 1927.

All the engines had the flywheel with the starter ring gear in place, just in case you wanted to pay the $60 extra for those items.

[JohnH]

The key to it is understanding the car, and maintaining it. Visual observation and listening to the sounds will tell if something is not right. The fact that there's so many T's still running around, with original engines, would indicate that all the modern gauges and idiot lights were not necessary at the time. However, in the modern day it is concerning that a lot of Model T owners don't regularly check their oil level, tyre pressures, and never oil and grease all the chassis lubrication points. They don't have to do that on their modern car, so it's overlooked on the T.
In the 21st century it would be a different story, to produce a car with no gauges and idiot lights. The ability to maintain a car and understand it, from visual and aural observation, is a lost skill with the average driver. They need a mobile phone app to tell them of any problems.

[TXGOAT2]

I believe that Ford advised never to begin a trip without checking the oil, water, and gasoline supplies. A car operated on roads typical of the 1920s would have required very frequent chassis lubrication, and probably a general tightening-up at frequent intervals. Information on diagnosing engine knocks were also included in owner's manuals, along with directions on use of the spark lever and the carburetor adjustment.

[Bryant]

I wish there was idiot light free automobiles! Any more you can’t make the repairs without proprietary software to reprogram what ever it is you replaced. We have a fleet of 45 delivery milk trucks 15 of which are from 2015. Those 15 you can do just about any repair with a good OBD scanner and a set of tools. the other 35 if you can figure out the problem you have to take the vehicle to a dealer to plug it in to confirm your diagnosis is correct. Then bring it back to repair the problem (to save thousands $) then haul it back so they can plug it in and reprogram it! I figure in the future it will be illegal to service any part of your vehicle because you don’t actually own it. John Deere I believe was turning combines off in the middle of fields during grain harvest via GPS because farmers where behind on payments! In the olden days you needed some common mechanical since and some tools to repair something. Now a days you need expensive diagnostic tools and an IT degree. For what it’s worth in my experiences most people don’t pay attention to anything on the dash anyways. How many people are driving around with a check engine light on? TPMS light? Wrench light? Service due light? I would welcome a simple car with no frills an affordable price and a black paint job any day!

[Michael Peternell]

...from Model T ammeters to Soylent Green in 8 short posts ...that has to be some sort of record

only on the Forum, where great advice abounds

Too funny!!!!
I was reading it and had the exact thought. Some of these threads go from idle adjusting to the covering on the Space Shuttle in record times!

[dykker5502]

When I explain to spectators that look on the simple engine I use to say that this was the worlds automotive peak. Since Model T it has gone downhill!
You could drive across a continent, maintain it along the route with a few tools and eveything added since only added to complexity which eventually breaks.
Remember the 2009 New Yourk - Seattle run? 54 Model Ts participated - approx. half of them had various modern "improvements" added to be sure to survive the 1000' og miles (some even drove back to the east coast after completing the race) and as I recall they had all various trobles with their "improvements". For the stock cars it was just another trip in the park.
You do not need a lot of "idiot lights" in a model T since there are not much to monitor. No oilpump so no oilpressure to monitor, just make sure it has oil. No charging until 1919 and I would surely prefere an amperemeter for an "Idiot light". No ABS, no airbags no nothing to monitor what so ever.
Keep it simple, stupid.

[randahl]

...from Model T ammeters to Soylent Green in 8 short posts ...that has to be some sort of record

only on the Forum, where great advice abounds

Ha! Ha! I don't care who ya are.. that there is funny!

[TXGOAT2]

From idiot lights to soylent green, actually. The re-make will be titled: "Brave New World: Beyond Soya". Funeral homes will become dining parlors as "development" replaces the soybean fields with massive apartment blocks for the burgeoning billions. The Unistate will provide each prole with Peoples' Nutrament, a grayish pastey substance derived from red algae and bioresidue of any and all types. The substance will "taste just like chicken", of course.

[Been Here Before]

imagessolyent.jpg (21.68 KiB) Viewed 1940 times

imagessoly2.jpg (16.3 KiB) Viewed 1940 times

The original question was - " ... how long would such a vehicle last, if constructed in 1908, and how long would such a designed car last in the 21st century?"

And the response ranged from idiot lights to the movie Soylent Green. As the sign in a salvage yard once stated: "Even cars are recalled by their maker."

[Professor Fate]

Have a nice day!

[speedytinc]

Useless idiot lights all get the same treatment here.

>BLACK ELECTRICAL TAPE <

If f the car's running fine, and you can't see the light (s) on, it doesn't matter.

............... until the battery gets low enough to sputter & stop running.

Lets hear it for a strong functional magneto.