Skiddish Steering

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Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:04 pm

So here's today's adventure in model t land....
I'm trying to fix my front end. Car darts left or right on bumps. Can be scary....
----------------------------------------
Camber is at .313 in
(3.0 in is correct)

Gather is at .125 (3/16-1/4 in is correct) gather is only short by .06 in.

Camber is 2.7 inches short of 3.0 inch goal per Henry. Waaaaaay offffff!
Spindles are straight, and spindle bushings are good. Looking like a bent axle.....????
Do I need the "big wrench?"
Thanks!
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by George House » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:10 pm

How much travel does your steering wheel have before it affects the front wheels ?
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people 🤪


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:30 pm

Caster angle is critical to directional stability. Your gather (toe in) sounds close to right. You may not need that much camber with balloon tires on a late model axle. Loose parts in the front and rear suspension will allow the car to self-steer. Do you have 4:1 or 5:1 steering gears? 5:1 would probably help stability.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:46 pm

I have 5:1 gears.
The axle is stamped FEB '22.
3+ inches of play in wheel. I have new gears and sun gear to install yet.
I went thru everyrhing this afternoon. I found bolts in the steering shaft backet on the firewall not tight. Needed less than a turn to be cinched up tight.
Steering box bolts all tight. No wierd movmement of steering shaft at steering box. Nice and tight. When I had the shaft out last week it was greased well and was not worn. Fits tightly.
Pitman is on tight. No slop from loose key. new apco fittings on pitman and on passenger side of same the rod, tight and installed properly. No play anywhere.
The only thing I'm going out to check now is the 5 1/2 deg measurement on the perches.....
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:58 pm

The 5 1/2 degree caster angle is important, and both sides should be close to the same. The spring perches must be tight in the axle and the radius rod connections to the axle must be tight. 3" of play at the steering wheel is way too much. I'd also check the spring to frame clamps and look over the rear suspension and engine mounts. As light as your car is, about 28 PSI in the balloon tires is probably plenty. A 17" steering wheel may help stability. Another thing to consider is the possibility of mis-matched steering parts. There are some drag links and tie rods that will fit in some steering assemblies, but they won't work right.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:04 pm

I have a steering wheel measuring 17.25 in outside to outside at 3+9 oclock.
Spring to frame are all tight and pinned. Car has no rattles going down the road.
I've been running 30 lbs for tire pressure.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:19 pm

When you are pointed straight ahead, the pitman arm on the end of the steering column should be straight down and centered. If not, you have the wrong drag link or pitman arm. The frame must be straight so the ball joints at the wishbone and at the rear universal joint should be centered. One way to check this would be to measure diagonally from one point on the frame at the back to a point at the front. The measurement should be the same in both directions. And the front and rear springs should be centered in the frame. Note, there is a square hole at the centers of the front and rear crossmembers. The center bolt of the spring should be pushed up into that hole which will hold the springs centered.
Norm


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:26 pm

Pitch Measurement:
3/16 drivers side
2/16 passenger side
Left hand drive car

Norm, front and rear springs have centering bolts in place.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:32 pm

Norm, pitman is at 6 o'clock almost perfectly straight up and down. It's maybe 5 degrees past true 6 o'clock headed towards 7 o'clock. Just a smidge.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:44 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:26 pm
Pitch Measurement:
3/16 drivers side
2/16 passenger side
Left hand drive car

Norm, front and rear springs have centering bolts in place.
What is pitch? Do you mean caster?


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:47 pm

Yes castor. Book calls it "pitch"😁
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:14 pm

As TXGOAT2 said 3" play is to much. I would have someone in the car moving the steering wheel within the 3" play while I was underneath the car to see what was moving and what was not. If you go over a bump and the car the wheels become unweighted and when they come down they will take up the slack.
While you measured camber but did you measure toe-in?
Since excessive toe means that each tire is pointed in a direction other than straight ahead, when the vehicle encounters a puddle that causes only one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's toe setting will push (excessive toe-in) or pull (excessive toe-out) the vehicle to the side...
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:51 pm

I left my notes up in the garage. I'll check in the a.m.
Thanks very much to everyone for your help
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by YellowTRacer » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:53 am

CASTOR!!!!!


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:12 am

The Model T steering system does not have a heavy, frame-mounted steering box between the steering linkage and the steering shaft like most other 4 wheeled vehicles. The T system depends to a degree upon the steering wheel's inertia, multiplied by the small gears at the top of the steering column, to dampen sudden rotary movements of the steering shaft. This damping effect is lost when slack exists in the system. Besides that, the driver's input is delayed and diminished by the lost motion between the steering wheel and the car's front wheels. Slack in the tie rod/axle assembly can also allow the front wheels to steer independently of one another to some degree, and slack in these parts make maintaining correct wheel alignment when the car is moving impossible. The Model T chassis has a minimum of parts, but all the parts need to be in good condition and good adjustment for it to work as it should. When everything is in good condition and proper adjustment, a Model T will handle predictably.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:13 am

Castor beans; caster wheels.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:56 am

Off to the garage......
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Billy Vrana » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:44 am

Is it possible that the king bolts are too tight? Maybe when hitting bumps it unloads the weight and its free to make a quick change in direction. I had this after rebushing my axle,


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:57 am

I know my drivers side spindle bolt is on the tight side. I tried to loosen it but it would not move. It's gonna take some heat and a pipe to get it loose.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by George House » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:29 am

Before you fire up that oxy acetylene wrench, I’d like to see you address that horrendous 3” steering wheel travel I axed about. In fact, don’t apply heat to the spindle bolt nut at all! I’m afraid that’d make the bottom brass bushing brittle 🇺🇦
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by jsaylor » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:09 pm

You need to determine where the 3" of play is. Have someone turn the steering wheel while you watch all the action. Start by holding the pitman arm while the steering wheel is turned. This will tell you which direction to look for the play.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:13 pm

Good point. No heat.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:14 pm

To loosen the spindle bolt you need to go to the bottom of the spindle and take out the cotter pin and loosen the nut. Then you should be able to adjust the spindle bolt by turning counter clockwise at the top. You might need a long wrench with about 2' long handle. Then when you get the bolt adjusted as you want it, you tighten down the nut at the bottom. If it becomes too tight, repeat the above but leave the bolt just a little bit looser before you tighten it at the bottom. The nut at the bottom is a lock nut but the thred at the bottom of the spindle is for adjustment Note, sometimes the thread in the spindle is worn out. If it is, you will need to install a helicoil.
Norm


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CASTOR NUMB3RS

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:15 pm

Remeasured Castor per manual using metal square.

Passenger side 1/8
Drivers side. 5/16
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Re: CASTOR NUMB3RS

Post by speedytinc » Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:27 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:15 pm
Remeasured Castor per manual using metal square.

Passenger side 1/8
Drivers side. 5/16
Squared to what? an out of true tire or rim?
This is another area where possible out of true parts are being relied on for critical specs.
See the correct method for checking toe in that filters out tire & rim wobble as an example.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:24 pm

"Passenger side 1/8
Drivers side. 5/16" ...... Your car will handle better with 5/16" on both sides. But it will never handle properly with anywhere near 3" of free play at the steering wheel. It would be best to get someone with some experience to do any bending on the axle, if possible. If I were you, I would correct the slack in the system first, then see how the car behaves on the road. It will probably have some tendency to wander or pull to one side. Correcting the caster angle should improve handling. It may also improve the camber error.


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Re: CASTOR NUMB3RS

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:09 pm

"Squared to what? an out of true tire or rim?
This is another area where possible out of true parts are being relied on for critical specs.
See the correct method for checking toe in that filters out tire & rim wobble as an example."

I measured Castor as per the manual as pictured below. Is it castor your referencing or toe? I'm unclear... sorry
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:12 pm

I've pulled the whole steering column.
New steering bracket bushing, pitman key, and install new gears up top tomorrow.
I found 1/8+ of play at the end of the steering shaft. Taking all advice seriously. Going thru it to reduce play in wheel, and reduce the slop I have.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by George House » Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:24 pm

Good prioritization Prof. The same thing happened to me. When my T got too close to the centerline I found myself ‘nudging’ it back to the right. With a great deal of steering wheel travel. Then, when I was afixin’ to drop the RF wheel off the pavement I ‘nudged’ it back to the left. After arriving home (with a white knuckle drive) I unscrewed the steering gear case below the steering wheel and found one of the three planet gear pins real loose. That necessitated a trip to my parts department to locate a good, correct steering column....🇺🇦
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Re: CASTOR NUMB3RS

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:23 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:09 pm
"Squared to what? an out of true tire or rim?
This is another area where possible out of true parts are being relied on for critical specs.
See the correct method for checking toe in that filters out tire & rim wobble as an example."

I measured Castor as per the manual as pictured below. Is it castor your referencing or toe? I'm unclear... sorry
Yes, he confused castEr with toe-in. Your checking method is fine, as long as the piece of pavement you're doing your checking on is dead flat. If it is, you should not have different readings from right to left. Might be better to use a plumb bob and bring the string close to each end of the axle. Take your measurement from the string to the axle, similar to how you meaured using the square.

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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:28 pm

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Re: CASTOR NUMB3RS

Post by speedytinc » Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:54 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:23 pm
Professor Fate wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:09 pm
"Squared to what? an out of true tire or rim?
This is another area where possible out of true parts are being relied on for critical specs.
See the correct method for checking toe in that filters out tire & rim wobble as an example."

I measured Castor as per the manual as pictured below. Is it castor your referencing or toe? I'm unclear... sorry
Yes, he confused castEr with toe-in. Your checking method is fine, as long as the piece of pavement you're doing your checking on is dead flat. If it is, you should not have different readings from right to left. Might be better to use a plumb bob and bring the string close to each end of the axle. Take your measurement from the string to the axle, similar to how you meaured using the square.
You are right, I was thinking you were looking @ camber.
Caster. (the rake of the axle) 6 degrees. a pencil width aprox 3/8". For hi speed ( above 60) Add more - 1/2- 5/8" This makes for a real steady steering, but you do loose some steering ease in the turns.

I see you figured your steering problem out. Steering mount bushing.
Last edited by speedytinc on Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Removing Ball

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:48 pm

Is there a tool that goes in the square pit in the ball to unscrew it?
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by speedytinc » Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:58 pm

It doesnt unscrew. Its a taper fit.
Put the nut back on to protect the thread & tap it with a brass hammer.

If the ball wants to slip when you tighten the nut after a reinstall,
you can hold it from turning with a 3/8" ratchet/breaker bar.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:54 pm

Could a reversed spring perch cause the difference in the caster angles?


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by speedytinc » Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:58 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:54 pm
Could a reversed spring perch cause the difference in the caster angles?
Yes, 2 lefts or 2 rights.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:24 pm

I'd carefully check everything before resorting to bending the axle to correct the caster. That may be necessary, but be sure everything associated with the axle is assembled correctly and is fully tight. Get rid of the play at the steering wheel first of all.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Erik Barrett » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:56 pm

I would bet that your car was taken apart and put back together with the front axle backwards from what it was before. This results in the spring perches winding up on the wrong side, leaning the axle forward at the top. That’s called negative caster and can make a model T very dangerous to drive. It will dive for the ditch unless you have a death grip on the steering wheel. Can you post a picture of the top of the axle and spring perches? I have T’s come in here frequently with this problem.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:33 pm

Gentlemen.....
I just realized/remembered that my garage floor is pitched gently to the center drain. Each side is pitched to the middle.
Maybe that's why I got two different measurements for castor, as the car is parked across the pitch. Drivers side is higher than passenger....

New---> I just discovered that my front spring shackles were too tight on the passenger side. The whole spring/Front end shifted when I loosened it up. That was an issue.....
So tomorrow I'm off to put a new bushing in the steering bracket, and mate/ream it to the shaft. I'll be able to install the whole works assembled when I'm done.
Also want to look at the gear box at the steering wheel.
Once I eliminate this, then I can move on to the next section of steering system.
Gotta slow it down and be "methodical" in approach. Sage advice from you here on this thread.
Thankyou.
Updates to follow.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:37 pm

Very few concrete floors are flat and level, in my experience.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:06 pm

Agreed! But mine has an intended pitch to center for water drainage. I have to set the down hill jackstand a notch higher for level.
I'm turning the car 90 degrees tomorrow to get the sides on the same plane, and I'll straddle the drain and level the car as such.
That's the best I can do.
Drain grate is dark strip at lower left of pic.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:37 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:58 pm
TXGOAT2 wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:54 pm
Could a reversed spring perch cause the difference in the caster angles?
Yes, 2 lefts or 2 rights.
Good question. Don't think this was ever verified
Boss to the back even for Pancake Hasslers but Beehive style has different requirements
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:23 pm

Spring perches:

My axle has month day year on the casting. Car is '26. Axle is '22. Mix and match.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:32 am

Professor Fate wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:23 pm
Spring perches:

My axle has month day year on the casting. Car is '26. Axle is '22. Mix and match.
The driver side picture confirms that side is correct but its hard to tell about the passenger side. The picture makes it look like its in the middle.
Front Axle 1926-1927
Similar to 1925 but spindles are higher on the spindle body to lower the chassis. New steering drag link which is about an inch shorter than the previous type. In late 1926 the axle was modified and now had a “droop” or “sag” between the perches.

The late 1926 and 1927 design has the middle of the top of the axle is about 1/2” lower, and presents a definite distinguishable curve between the perches, than on older designs. Don't see any other difference noted. So I doubt if the axle beam is an issue
--
--
So to better understand "Mix & match" - is the only difference us the axle being '22 and all the rest (spindles, arms, tie rod, drag link and pitman arm) all '26?
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:40 pm

I'm unfamiliar with components. Front end is how it came to me. I've made no changes.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:28 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:40 pm
I'm unfamiliar with components. Front end is how it came to me. I've made no changes.
Another member having similar issues https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29982
Parts but your pictures help to
Front spring, eight leaf, low arch, “clip end” spring. count what you see then there may be one inside the crossmember
spindles - the '26 have a gap & flat sides
Spindles.jpg
Spindle arms
spindle arms 1.png
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:03 pm

Spindle pics from front of car looking rearward.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:14 pm

That has the look of something needing rebuilding. The bottom picture has me imagining a wheel bearing loaded with rust.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:26 pm

Bearings all new and packed with grease. A hardware refresh and new cotters will go a long way.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:30 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:26 pm
Bearings all new and packed with grease. A hardware refresh and new cotters will go a long way.
Okay. That's good. Photos can play tricks.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Bryant » Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:13 pm

In this picture there appears to be a little to much “toe” in :lol:
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by RVA23T » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:15 pm

Bryant wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:13 pm
In this picture there appears to be a little to much “toe” in :lol:
The Quick way to adjust that kind of toe in is you put your right foot in, you put your right foot out, you put your right foot in and you shake it all about, you do the hokie pokie ............
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:41 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:03 pm
Spindle pics from front of car looking rearward.
Spindles are 1926 - the axle date (shape) is not an issue except for judging :roll:
May need a status update on what looseness you have resolved, what adjustments mad and how the car is driving now.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:37 pm

I was able to get a new streering bracket bushing installed today thanks to a great friend who helped me out.
Steering column is all reassembled and was installed back in the car tonight.
I have a bunch of stuff to go thru yet. Tightening up the rest of the steering is priority 1.
Hope to be driving/testing soon.
Updates pending.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Bill Robinson » Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:49 pm

Professor Fate- I was in the same shape as you back in 2020. I have a '27 Tudor that I've owned for almost 10 years. When I bought it, the car drove real squirrely. I put new kingpins & bushings and it got better, but just not as squirrely. Straightened the axle, installed a pitman arm that measured good, rebuilt the steering column. I did everything that you have done and each repair helped, but not enough. I got Suzi to get aggressive with the steering wheel and I could see some play in the bushing at the steering bracket. Replaced the bushing.
Now, that Tudor is the best driving car in my collection.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:32 pm

Hi!
Trying to get my tie rod end to crank out 1 turn to get my toe setting closer.
Only problem is the clevis won't move. I just don't want to crush the hollow tie rod. Any secrets/hints?
I have it off the car.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by speedytinc » Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:46 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:32 pm
Hi!
Trying to get my tie rod end to crank out 1 turn to get my toe setting closer.
Only problem is the clevis won't move. I just don't want to crush the hollow tie rod. Any secrets/hints?
I have it off the car.
Strip the paint on the threads especially. Wire wheel. Kroil for a day & try again. Clamp in a soft jawed vise & turn yoke with a bar or pipe. Dont force it. If no joy, heat the yoke body over the threads. Let cool & re Kroil. I am generally against the blue wrench, but, in this situation, with stuck threads its warranted.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:37 pm

Got it free. All set.
Had to loosen ball clamp to let it turn...... learned something new
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:50 pm

You can pry the clevis a little to help turn it. Loosen it a bit before cleaning out the threads needed to tighten it as indicated above. Also check for tightness of the tie rod bolt in the unthreaded hole of the clevis - it should be snug when almost fully thread (do this without the spindle arm)
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Allan » Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:49 pm

Dan, your tie rod end looks to be considerably worn where it rests on top of the steering arm. This will allow it to rattle up and down in service. When I rebuild a front end, I dress the eyes on the end so they are flat. This will open up the gap between them, and you don't want to close that gap by crushing the yokes together. Instead, I use a worn spindle bush to make new tie rod bushes. They are the correct OD, and I open the ID to suit the pins. The flange on the bush is then worked down to closely fit between the end yokes. The bush is then fitted with the flange on the top of the spindle arm, where it makes a wear surface for the weight of the tie rod, at the same time taking out all the rattle.

Hope this helps,
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Toe!

Post by Professor Fate » Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:05 pm

I worked on setting the proper toe.
I can be at 1/4 toe out, 0.6 toe in, or between 3/8 and 7/16 toe in, based on the turns of the adjusting tie rod clevis.
I want slight toe in for straight line stability.
--->Which numbers are ok?<---
What should I do?
Last edited by Professor Fate on Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:13 am

Toe-in vs Toe-out - These descriptions are applicable for Rear Wheel drive cars. (FWD drive cars are just the opposite)
Positive toe, or toe in, is the front of the wheel pointing towards the centreline of the vehicle.
Toe-in produces understeer a condition where, while cornering, the front tires begin to slip first. Since the front tires are slipping and the rear tires have grip, the vehicle will turn less than if all tires had grip. While this sounds scary its actual gives the driver better control since the effect is controlled by use of the throttle - for driving just let off the gas and engine brake if necessary. Toe-in provides more stability at speed.
--
Negative toe, or toe out, is the front of the wheel pointing away from the centreline of the vehicle.
Toe-out produces oversteer a condition when a car turns more than the driver intends while he or she is applying a steady steering input. The visible results of oversteer can include the tail sliding out or a full spin. Oversteer occurs when the rear wheels lose traction before the fronts. This is what midget racers and tuner cars use to cause drifting around a corner that is to let the rear of the car come around a bit with the front wheels pointed in to the turn.
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Re: Toe!

Post by speedytinc » Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:20 am

Professor Fate wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:05 pm
I worked on setting the proper toe.
I can be at 1/4 toe out, 0.6 toe in, or between 3/8 and 7/16 toe in, based on the turns of the adjusting tie rod clevis.
I want slight toe in for straight line stability.
--->Which numbers are ok?<---
What should I do?
You mean .06" toe in.(1/16") This will work fine if everything else is tight.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:55 am

When measuring or setting toe in, you need to have the car on a flat, level surface with the front wheels straight ahead. Before measuring, roll the car forward a few feet and let it stop. Do not let it roll backward, not even a tiny bit. Set the parking brake tight. Then do your measurement or adjustment. After any adjustment, I would drive the car and observe how it behaved, then go back to your flat level surface, and again let the car roll to a stop with the front wheels straight ahead, set the parking brake, and repeat the measurement to confirm adjustment. When you tighten the tie rod end clamp bolt after adjustment, be sure that both the tie rod clevises are in line with the ends of the steering arms.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Allan » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:40 pm

You can get around not being able to land the toe-in in the desired range using the thread on the tie rod by tweaking the spindle arms a bit. Either bend an arm in , or out, just a bit, and try again with the adjustment of the yoke. The bend hardly needs to be noticeable to have the desired effect. A bee's ass at the end of the arm is magnified greatly at the tyre end.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:59 pm

The toe of the car, not my foot as noted in a recent pic (lol!!!), has been set...... to 0.20 toe in. I have to finish putting it all back together yet. Test drive in the a.m. hopefully
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:24 pm

I've been working on the front end.... found the ball on the tie rod end is still wiggling 5 degrees beyond center left and right, allowing for slop in the wheel. I can see it well because the nut end also wiggles, but the opposite way.
Do I need a new clevis and ball?
The testing was performed with the castle nut tightened on. Sorry it's missing in the pic. Wiggle is same whether tightened or no nut.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Moxie26 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:01 pm

Tie rod balls with tapered shank are available at Snyder's Auto parts... Reproduction parts


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:06 pm

You need to take everything apart, clean off all the rust and crud, and inspect each piece for wear. The two washers shown behind the nut in your other photos tell me that something there is definitely worn out. Either way, you won't know what's all wrong till you get it all cleaned up and inspected.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Allan » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:04 pm

There are two types of those balls. Prior to the more common tapered fit style, there were some with a straight shank. Perhaps you have a mis-match of parts at the yoke. Either way, a replacement yoke may well be in order.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:54 pm

The 2 washers i threw on to see if that killed the wiggle . It did not.
I'll be taking the tie rod off and removing that clevis end, and replacing with a new one along with a new ball.
Headed to Lang's Tuesday a.m. for parts.
Thanks as always. -D
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:06 pm
The two washers shown behind the nut in your other photos tell me that something there is definitely worn out. Either way, you won't know what's all wrong till you get it all cleaned up and inspected.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:14 pm

How would this right side spindle arm come off the axle? After removing nut, does it tap out or thread out?
Thanks!
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:50 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:14 pm
How would this right side spindle arm come off the axle? After removing nut, does it tap out or thread out?
Thanks!
Taps out
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Allan » Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:40 pm

There is no taper to break, so it "taps"out. Good luck with that. They are not often removed in service, so can rust solidly in place Heat may be needed, a penetrant essential, protection of the thread against miss- placed tapping blows also essential. It can also be helpful if you can add a twisting bar through the tie rod bolt hole to introduce some twisting action to help break the rust.

When replacing the arm, wait until you have the tie rod connected before you tighten the nut on the end of the arm. The tie rod bolt will give you the correct orientation for the arm.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:00 pm

Greetings!
I finally was able to drive the car for 10 mins to evaluate the new toe in setting, and the new bushing in the steering bracket. Findings were significantly tighter steering with just shy of 2 inches of steering wheel "play," it tracked straight, and had no tendency to dart left or right.
Toe in is now at 0.20. Next adjustment turn will put it at 0.43 toe in. Is that too much?? I think I could benefit from a bit more toe in maybe. Thoughts?
Castor is next on the list.

The rear end likes to hop left or right after a good bump/jolt from rough pavement or bridge expansion joint.
I think that's due to the rear spring shackle bolts too tight or needing lube/new bushings. (I'm assuming this because of what I found up front.) Eval of rear suspension next.
So it's off to Baldwinville in the a.m. for parts for the next round. 😁👍
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Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:59 pm
The toe of the car, not my foot as noted in a recent pic (lol!!!), has been set...... to 0.20 toe in. I have to finish putting it all back together yet. Test drive in the a.m. hopefully
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Allan » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:41 am

The greater the toe in, the more significant the feathering and wear on the tyres. Making the adjustments by turning the tie rod yoke will of often land with too little on one thread and the next turn being too much, as you have found. I don't know of any other way of setting intermediate measurements other than giving the spindle arms a bit of bend. Perhaps others can help.

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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:16 am

You need to oil (or grease) every moving part of the chassis, front and rear, including the springs. 2" of steering play is still too much. None is preferred. I would not mess with the toe in at this point. Do make an accurate check of the caster angle. As for hopping sideways when hitting bumps, lubrication,including oiling the springs, may help that. Getting rid of play in the steering will help. Attention to tire pressure can help. You have a lightweight car, and you may not need to put more than 25 to 28 PSI in the tires. Your car may ride and handle better with a reduced number of spring leaves. Overly-stiff springs and no shocks will make the car tend to buck and hop excessively when going over bumps. Springs that lack lubrication will aggravate this tendency. Have you counted the number of leaves in the front and rear springs?


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:00 am

I've been running WD40 and PB blaster thru all the cups and lube points up front trying to flush out things. The rear needs more attention with fluids and new bushings and hardware.
Rear end hop is worse with a passenger and the suspension loaded. That's why I think the buggy spring "ain't springin'."

I'll count leaves. I know I took one leaf that had broken ends, off the rear when I cleaned up the springs for lube and reassembly. I think I have seven back there but I'll check. New shackle bolts and bushings pending....
I've been running 30lbs in the tires.
Do you think the smaller diameter steering wheel would help reduce the sensation of play?
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:54 am

Use motor oil on the springs, shackles, kingpins, etc. Adding a passenger or other weight (usually) stabilizes a vehicle. As for the play, I would not go to a smaller steering wheel. The larger steering wheel should give better overall control and stability. Get rid of the play. Driving a car with play in the steering is like trying to push a chain, or trying to stuff a 25 pound goat into a 10 pound sack. Kitty litter is a good thing to have around when you are messing with a Model T. A couple of 20 lb sacks of the cheap kitty litter will come in handy for dealing with oil leaks, and you can use the full sacks for ballast. You might find that adding some weight to the rear of the car will add stability. A stock Model T tourer would ride best with 4 adult passengers. Be aware that both the front and rear suspension, and the steering gears at the top of the column, need to be in good order for the car to handle properly, and the engine mounts also play a role in locating the front and rear axles. Your car should handle reasonabley well when you get the bugs worked out. Ride and handling can be improved substantially by adding shock absorbers, front and rear. But before considering that, you need to get the chassis in good working order and the wheel alignment in spec. You might try running 25 PSI in your tires. A light T with balloon tires on wire wheels should do fine at the lower pressure.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:56 am

If your car is too light for the springs, they will not flex when the wheels hit a bump. It will ride like a one ton pickup with an empty bed. The same is true for stiff, dry springs that need lubrication.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:20 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:00 pm
Next adjustment turn will put it at 0.43 toe in. Is that too much?? I think I could benefit from a bit more toe in maybe. Thoughts?
Castor is next on the list.

The rear end likes to hop left or right after a good bump/jolt from rough pavement or bridge expansion joint.
I think that's due to the rear spring shackle bolts too tight or needing lube/new bushings. (I'm assuming this because of what I found up front.) Eval of rear suspension next.
So it's off to Baldwinville in the a.m. for parts for the next round. 😁👍
Yes, .430" is way too much. Leave it at .200" if it tracks well.

If I interpret your rear end hop situation correctly, were you to be able to view the car from behind, it would look as if someone were dribbling your rear axel like a basketball.

Your rear end hop needs to be addressed. If it happens while also trying to stop, you'll be very disappointed, as I was when my speedster did just that. I nearly hit a car. In my case, I removed a spring leaf to get the car sitting lower. Big mistake! It made the spring too light, as in "too bouncy", or too loose. I put the missing leaf back in and it handles like a champ now. Who cares if it's a bit of a stiff ride, it's safe now. I also added some accessory Hartford friction shocks which made things even better.

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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:53 pm

YES, Since it tracks well leave the Toe In setting at .200"
--
--
The rear end hop is likely due to weight distribution, that is a lack of weight in the rear end and spring stiffness. Picture: the front end takes the bump and settles with the engine weight over the springs, the rear end has no weight over the springs with the top, rear seat fenders etc removed (gas tank full?) in fact the front weight acts as a pivot point. I wouldn't try to solve the rear hop problem till you finish with the body parts. But as a test of the weight assumption, put about 150lbs in the back seat position to see if it makes a difference
--
Yes, do the maintenance and repair of the parts (shackles, springs etc) in rear. I
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:08 pm

TR, Since you now have shocks on your car, you might be able to do without that spring leaf.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:14 pm

Axle hop, the "dribbling" effect, is one issue. The rear of the car leaping left or right is another. Adding some weight at the rear might help in either case. A compliant (soft) rear spring, suited to the weight of the car, coupled with double-acting shocks is the best solution. A spring with the right rate, or "give" will allow the axle to move over most bumps without pitching the car violently upward. Good shocks will control bounce and hop.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:05 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 1:14 pm
Axle hop, the "dribbling" effect, is one issue. The rear of the car leaping left or right is another.
Not as I see it. If it doesn't hop, it also won't leap right or left.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:10 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:00 am

Do you think the smaller diameter steering wheel would help reduce the sensation of play?
No, since it won't actually remove the play.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:13 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:00 am

Rear end hop is worse with a passenger and the suspension loaded. That's why I think the buggy spring "ain't springin'."

Tells me the spring is springin' too much due to its being too light/mushy. But then, when you say "hop", do you mean that the rear end is bouncing down the road after hitting a bump, as I described above?


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:24 pm

Thanks for your responses.

When I say "hop," I mean the car hits a bump, gets light in the ass and will jump left or right, causing me to want to counter steer with play in the wheel. Exciting to say the least.
I just got back with a box of goodies to fix up some suspension issues. I got new spring shackle bushings, front and rear. That should help a little.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:26 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:24 pm
Thanks for your responses.

When I say "hop," I mean the car hits a bump, gets light in the ass and will jump left or right, causing me to want to counter steer with play in the wheel. Exciting to say the least.
Does it just make one leap, or does the rear axle continue to bounce?


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:31 pm

The independent and objectively keen evaluator, the ever lovely Mrs. Fate, just advised me that on her ride, the car was "bouncing and dribbling like a basketball."😁
A bounce followed by skips....
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:19 pm

A wheel or wheels out of round, or out of balance, can cause axle hop, especially on a lightweight vehicle.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:00 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:31 pm
The independent and objectively keen evaluator, the ever lovely Mrs. Fate, just advised me that on her ride, the car was "bouncing and dribbling like a basketball."😁
A bounce followed by skips....
Thanks! Then I'll stick to my advice about the spring being too weak due to the removed leaf.

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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:13 pm

Professor Fate wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:31 pm
The independent and objectively keen evaluator, the ever lovely Mrs. Fate, just advised me that on her ride, the car was "bouncing and dribbling like a basketball."😁
A bounce followed by skips....
Because the car is light in the rear right now, once the car starts to bounce there is nothing to flex the rear spring to absorb the shock. Once bouncing starts there is little to dampen it but the tire side walls and successive smaller and smaller bounces to dribbles. If the car was fully loaded then the bouncing cause might be different.
NY Times aticle
Paul Giltinan, a veteran Ford engineer who has designed steering and suspension systems for everything from rear-drive Mustangs to front-drive Windstar minivans and Nascar-racing Thunderbirds, said the differences reflected shifts in weight and force.
The Model T's layout lasted long, he said, because it represented a generally efficient and simple balance. ''With rear drive and a typical weight distribution of 55 percent on the front wheels and 45 percent on the rear wheels, handling is very neutral,'' which means the car goes where it is pointed without ''pushing.'' ''Pushing'' describes the vehicle's tendency to steer straight instead of turning.
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Re: LEAF COUNT

Post by Professor Fate » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:51 pm

LEAF COUNT:
Front 7 (no pad)
Rear 6 (no pad)

All spring shackles are loose enuff to move. Not binding.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:09 pm

one other cause related to tires is age. If the side walls are hard the the little flex that fresh tires would give is nonexistent & you would be riding a buckboard
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:18 pm

Tires are all in good shape, like new.
Good point to mention.
Thanks!
Springs were all smoothed and deburred so they would slide on each other nicely. I had greased them all before reassembly. So they're sliding well. Should not be an issue.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:32 pm

Tires and wheels must be round and in good balance. As-new tires can flat spot if they sit too long. Sometimes a tire is not centered on the rim, which causes out of round and out of balance. If the car has balance beads in the tires, it's possible they could have become clumped, which would cause out of balance. If the tires had Green Slime or a similar anti-flat product added some time ago, it may have dried out and clumped.


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:33 pm

Have you got the caster set properly?


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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:05 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:33 pm
Have you got the caster set properly?
Not yet... pending.
Gotta get the front end tightened up first. Spring shackle bushing, and tie rod ball and clevis replacement are the next moves.
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Re: Skiddish Steering

Post by Professor Fate » Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:17 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:32 pm
flat spot.... balance beads...
Green Slime.......
All thankfully not a factor.....
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