How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
-
Topic author - Posts: 172
- Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:58 am
- First Name: Kevin
- Last Name: Weeds
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Depot Hack, 1927 Coupe & 1914 Runabout
- Location: New Zealand
- Board Member Since: 2015
How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
In a previous post a few years ago when discussing this cars tendency to dance/veer left or right when driving over a road repair or similar surface someone suggested that my front end could be in the wrong way around.
I was thinking that if that was the case would the bearing threads be a give away given that they are left hand thread on one side?
What is the correct thread for each side?
Also when standing at the front of the car the spindles (if that's the correct term) look to be tilting slightly backwards to the eye, is that the correct tilt or should they be leaning forward?
Thanks
I was thinking that if that was the case would the bearing threads be a give away given that they are left hand thread on one side?
What is the correct thread for each side?
Also when standing at the front of the car the spindles (if that's the correct term) look to be tilting slightly backwards to the eye, is that the correct tilt or should they be leaning forward?
Thanks
-
- Posts: 2401
- Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:17 pm
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Strange
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Cut Off Touring (now a pickup)
- Location: Hillsboro, MO
- MTFCA Number: 30944
- MTFCI Number: 23667
- Board Member Since: 2013
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
The front axle should lean back about 5 1/2 degrees, see the attached diagram. An easy way to check is to place a carpenter's square up against the front axle. That will make the lean easier to see.
Later spring perches have a divot on the top for a lathe live center to fit in when they were originally machined. That divot should be on the rear side of the perch when installed correctly, see the attached pic.
Later spring perches have a divot on the top for a lathe live center to fit in when they were originally machined. That divot should be on the rear side of the perch when installed correctly, see the attached pic.
Mark Strange
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
Hillsboro, MO
1924 Cut-off Touring (now a pickup)
-
- Posts: 957
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:39 pm
- First Name: James
- Last Name: Golden
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Model T Roadster
- Location: Bowie, MD
- MTFCA Number: 14294
- MTFCI Number: 13562
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
Figure 119 on Page 45 of the Model T Ford Service Book shows a photo of how to check that front axle 5 1/2 degree lean.
I went through the same problem about 3 years ago with a complete restoration 1926 Touring that had received all the AACA Awards they had to offer and most parts of the car were New Old Stock parts.
The car would do anything, but go straight ahead, if it headed for the ditch and I steered it straight, it would head across the road, and it always continued to do that again, as it headed back toward the ditch.
What I finally found wrong, after the front axle had been totally removed and inspected, was that large Babbitt washer on the ring gear side had been ground to pieces the size of course gravel and when some of those pieces got between the ring and pinion gear, it would work like a crawler tractor turns, by braking one rear track wheel.
The best Babbitt washer was on the opposite side and not too good.
Now, I still believe the most over-looked part of any restoration is that rear axle assembly.
I went through the same problem about 3 years ago with a complete restoration 1926 Touring that had received all the AACA Awards they had to offer and most parts of the car were New Old Stock parts.
The car would do anything, but go straight ahead, if it headed for the ditch and I steered it straight, it would head across the road, and it always continued to do that again, as it headed back toward the ditch.
What I finally found wrong, after the front axle had been totally removed and inspected, was that large Babbitt washer on the ring gear side had been ground to pieces the size of course gravel and when some of those pieces got between the ring and pinion gear, it would work like a crawler tractor turns, by braking one rear track wheel.
The best Babbitt washer was on the opposite side and not too good.
Now, I still believe the most over-looked part of any restoration is that rear axle assembly.
-
- Posts: 1112
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:01 am
- First Name: Mark
- Last Name: Nunn
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Runabout
- Location: Bennington, NE
- MTFCA Number: 50321
- Board Member Since: 2017
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
The figure Jim mentioned in the service manual can be confusing. This is from the manual.
It says the measurement at B should be between 1/4" and 5/16". However, the distance between the upper and lower bushing surfaces is 6". I did the math. If the axle is tilted 5 1/2 degrees, the dimension at B would be 9/16". The axle on my '26 has 9/16" rearward tilt at the top and it steers beautifully.
It says the measurement at B should be between 1/4" and 5/16". However, the distance between the upper and lower bushing surfaces is 6". I did the math. If the axle is tilted 5 1/2 degrees, the dimension at B would be 9/16". The axle on my '26 has 9/16" rearward tilt at the top and it steers beautifully.
-
- Posts: 5459
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
- First Name: Frank
- Last Name: Brandi
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedster (1919 w 1926)
- Location: Moline IL
- Board Member Since: 2018
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
A current post has been discussing steering issues and how to adjust steering suggest you read through this link https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29941
It contains all the above diagrams plus more specifications. Need pictures and car year to evaluate your front axle. Does it have any accessories add like Hassler shocks which may effect perch placement (only Beehive style is different than normal)
--
Veering left or right is different than jerking left or right as is constant pull to the left or right. Roads are not flat but a slight crown in the center and driving on them would cause some feeling of veering or pulling towards the front passenger side of the road.
--
left and right side of a car are relative to the driver's left & right same as which side the steering wheel is on
On Model T's the left side has its spindle nuts tightening in a clockwise direction (right hand thread) and the right side tightens counter clockwise (left hand thread).
It contains all the above diagrams plus more specifications. Need pictures and car year to evaluate your front axle. Does it have any accessories add like Hassler shocks which may effect perch placement (only Beehive style is different than normal)
--
Veering left or right is different than jerking left or right as is constant pull to the left or right. Roads are not flat but a slight crown in the center and driving on them would cause some feeling of veering or pulling towards the front passenger side of the road.
--
left and right side of a car are relative to the driver's left & right same as which side the steering wheel is on
On Model T's the left side has its spindle nuts tightening in a clockwise direction (right hand thread) and the right side tightens counter clockwise (left hand thread).
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
-
- Posts: 3869
- Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
- First Name: john
- Last Name: karvaly
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
- Location: orange, ca
- MTFCA Number: 14383
- Board Member Since: 2020
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
Its not confusing, Its just plain wrong. The bible has an error. Which spec did they intend??Mark Nunn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:55 amThe figure Jim mentioned in the service manual can be confusing. This is from the manual.
Caster measurement.gif
It says the measurement at B should be between 1/4" and 5/16". However, the distance between the upper and lower bushing surfaces is 6". I did the math. If the axle is tilted 5 1/2 degrees, the dimension at B would be 9/16". The axle on my '26 has 9/16" rearward tilt at the top and it steers beautifully.
The axle tilted back 9/16 does make for a very stable front end.
Especially noticeable @ hi speed.
-
- Posts: 6443
- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
- First Name: Pat
- Last Name: McNallen
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
- Location: Graham, Texas
- MTFCA Number: 51486
- Board Member Since: 2021
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
The condition of the front spring and any accessory load on the spring will affect caster angle. Compressing the spring will add caster. If you put rubber shims under your rear engine mounts, it will reduce caster. A lightweight speedster with a new or rebuilt front spring might come up short on caster unless you remove a leaf or two from the front spring.
-
- Posts: 365
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:52 am
- First Name: David
- Last Name: Menzies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Touring and 1915 Touring both Canadian models
- Location: British Columbia
- MTFCA Number: 27825
- Board Member Since: 2012
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
The first thing to check is that the perchs are on the correct sides the left side has an odd number and the right has an even number. Left #3819, Right #3818. All front end left and right hand parts are odd# for left and even # for right.
-
Topic author - Posts: 172
- Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:58 am
- First Name: Kevin
- Last Name: Weeds
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Depot Hack, 1927 Coupe & 1914 Runabout
- Location: New Zealand
- Board Member Since: 2015
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
Thanks Guys some great info there.
Mark - I'll check for that divot as its a 26.
James - I don't think its the rear end as it steers perfectly in all situations except if you hit a pot hole repair etc it will dance off line. However yesterday I just finished swapping the rear ends over with my Hack so "A" I'll test the speedster to see if it's still there and "B" I test the Hack to see if that's now got the problem.
Frank - Thanks for that link
Pat - You may be onto something as its a speedster with a light rear end plus done little miles since a rebuild so probably strong springs.
David - The numbering could be a helpful pointer, when you say left and right is that looking at the car from the front?
Clarification guys - The car is a right hand drive 26 Speedster with wire wheels but completely stock running gear, I purchased it like that from a deceased estate so no history available. I have just finished swapping engine/trans and now rear end over from my 23 Depot Hack (Right hand drive also).
Next I will be taking the wire wheels off the front of the speedster to put on the Hack (rear wire wheels already on that from the rear end swap yesterday) and I'm considering swapping the front axles v removing the wire wheels & hubs over. If I thought the speedster front axle was installed wrong way around I would do the front axle and rectify at change over.
Thanks again
Mark - I'll check for that divot as its a 26.
James - I don't think its the rear end as it steers perfectly in all situations except if you hit a pot hole repair etc it will dance off line. However yesterday I just finished swapping the rear ends over with my Hack so "A" I'll test the speedster to see if it's still there and "B" I test the Hack to see if that's now got the problem.
Frank - Thanks for that link
Pat - You may be onto something as its a speedster with a light rear end plus done little miles since a rebuild so probably strong springs.
David - The numbering could be a helpful pointer, when you say left and right is that looking at the car from the front?
Clarification guys - The car is a right hand drive 26 Speedster with wire wheels but completely stock running gear, I purchased it like that from a deceased estate so no history available. I have just finished swapping engine/trans and now rear end over from my 23 Depot Hack (Right hand drive also).
Next I will be taking the wire wheels off the front of the speedster to put on the Hack (rear wire wheels already on that from the rear end swap yesterday) and I'm considering swapping the front axles v removing the wire wheels & hubs over. If I thought the speedster front axle was installed wrong way around I would do the front axle and rectify at change over.
Thanks again
-
- Posts: 1464
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:22 am
- First Name: craig
- Last Name: leach
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 Firetruck/1922 Speedster
- Location: Laveen Az
- MTFCA Number: 26647
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
Hi Kevin,
If the spring purchases are in backwards there will be a conflict with the front end at the spring pushing back hard on the wishbone. If you don't have them backwards. Caster can be increased by putting a cap upside down on the pan (this may require some washers to make things secure) As fare as speedsters I split my wishbone and machined beveled washers that can be rotated to adjust the caster. As far as I can tell there maybe no front and back to a T front axel I have axels with Ford on one side & some with Ford on both sides I would think that for manufacturing purposes they would be made so there was no way to screw it up. I have found that driving in modern traffic more is better because we tend to drive much faster than T's where expected to go because the roads are much better now.
Craig.
If the spring purchases are in backwards there will be a conflict with the front end at the spring pushing back hard on the wishbone. If you don't have them backwards. Caster can be increased by putting a cap upside down on the pan (this may require some washers to make things secure) As fare as speedsters I split my wishbone and machined beveled washers that can be rotated to adjust the caster. As far as I can tell there maybe no front and back to a T front axel I have axels with Ford on one side & some with Ford on both sides I would think that for manufacturing purposes they would be made so there was no way to screw it up. I have found that driving in modern traffic more is better because we tend to drive much faster than T's where expected to go because the roads are much better now.
Craig.
-
- Posts: 365
- Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:52 am
- First Name: David
- Last Name: Menzies
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Touring and 1915 Touring both Canadian models
- Location: British Columbia
- MTFCA Number: 27825
- Board Member Since: 2012
Re: How to tell if the front end is wrong way around?
The left side would be the driver's side. On the bench you can put them on either side but the perch with the odd number goes on the driver' side.