Transmission binds when starting cold?

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Rata Road
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Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:59 pm

Background - One of my T's has a binding transmission issue. I have owned the T for 7 years, was parked for approx 8 years prior from deceased estate so no history known. It has always been VERY slow/stiff to crank over cold and so slow to wind on the starter.
When engine is warm its perfect, easy hand crank and quick starter wind.
I didn't drive this T as much as the others so has lived parked up for most of the year. I have since changed this engine/trans into another T which I use often so I'm keen to investigate, maybe it will get better with frequent use.

On a cold start it turns the transmission & wheels no matter what, whether its in in neutral or handbrake fully on which means its impossible by hand and not much better by starter although it does slowly grind over. I have found if I jack one wheel up it starts great, partially due to the extra flywheel effect but mainly to no resistance as the trans can be locked up with no effect however after starting it takes about 3 minutes of mid range running in gear before it wont stall when the handbrake is applied (large drum rear end). In other words before the binding frees up. After it is warm it hand cranks easy, you could park up for 2 hours and still hand crank easy with no binding but left overnight problem back.

The trans brake (wooden bands) is very poor, it's not a wide drum brake in trans. there looks to be enough wood on the band to the eye, I was wondering if the brake drum was turned down too far in the past.
I adjusted the brake well up in the past with little advantage.
Could this be the binding cause, brake wound up too far? perhaps I should loosen that way back and see if the problem goes away?
I intend to have a go at replacing/relining the brake band but I thought I would ask for suggestions on what else I could look for inside the trans before I open it up.

Thanks


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Kerry » Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:17 pm

The brake drum band would have nothing to do with hard start, when turning the engine over with the car not moving the drum does not turn. It will be a problem with the clutch pack, the original steel plate ones are well known to be a pain with, A, thicker oil, B, worn lugs in the drum that the large plates will hang up on.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by aDave » Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:04 pm

After you have driven the car, and parked it, and turned the engine off, do you leave the handbrake on, or do do push the handbrake fully forward, thus "putting it into high gear" until you go to start it another day?


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:31 pm

Depending on how cold the weather is and also what weight the oil is, you could have a drag in the high speed clutch plates when the engine has been parked in neutral or with the parking brake on. The oil is between the plates and becomes thick (viscous). Then when you try to start it, there is a drag. When the oil warms up, it becomes thinner and it will turn easier. This has been a common problem since the Model T was introduced. They used to chock the front wheel and jack up one rear wheel to start the car when it was cold.
You can help loosen it by using multigrade oil and also by parking with the brake forward in the high gear position. This position of the lever in high gear will squeeze the oil out from between the plates, and then when you pull it back to start, less oil will be between the plates.
This is winter in the southern hemisphere. I don't know how cold it gets where you live, but these suggestions might be helpful to you.
Norm


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by John kuehn » Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:58 pm

Do you have a good neutral for sure? When it’s sat up for a while and the parking brake is straight up you should be able to pull up on the crank and the car should move very little if at all. When it’s hot it probably won’t move and that’s correct.
Have you ever changed the oil? 10w 20 probably should be OK in your area.
And as mentioned leaving the handbrake all the way forward will help to keep the oil from in between the clutch plates.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:24 pm

Model Ts require a motor oil that resists thickening in cooler weather. A 5W20 synthetic oil will give good results in cool season driving. If the engine rattles and knocks with thinner oil in it, it needs the bearings serviced. Putting heavy oil in a Model T to quiet worn bearings is a recipe for trouble, particularly in cold weather. Transmission linkage adjustments can cause problems, but if your car performs well when warmed up, it indicates the probability that the crankcase oil is too thick, whether from being too viscous a grade to begin with, or from having become loaded with sludge and gum.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by JohnH » Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:25 pm

I've lived with this 'problem' since as long as I've had my car, though it's not quite as bad as yours. And now we're in winter it's even more obvious.
As others have said, and certainly in my instance, it's the high speed clutch. I can clearly see congealed oil on the clutch plates - and I know the transmission has never been taken apart since the car was made. Rather than pull out the power plant and dismantle the transmission to clean it, I live with it - a jack is always ready for cold starts. I find within about 10 seconds I can pull on the handbrake without stalling it if done gradually enough.
I use no name 20W 50 oil which is perhaps a little thicker than necessary, but it's the cheapest and most easily available.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Wed Jul 06, 2022 1:43 am

Thanks for your input guys. I've already posted a reply to some of these suggestions today but its disappeared, that's the 3rd time that has happened in last few months? Frustrating.

Anyway - I always park my T's with the handbrake forward so its not that. I buy oil in bulk and use it on all 3 T's and the other 2 don't do this so it probably isn't the grade of oil. However I might try putting different oil in this one to see if it helps. What grade do you suggest? I have read on here that some grades are too slippery at start up but fine when warmed up, that's the grade I would like to try, suggestions please.

I wouldn't mind so much if it was only 10 secs but it will still stall the engine with wheel jacked up running mid range revs after 2 full minutes, its best to leave it running for 4 or 5 mins before dropping the jack. Perhaps a modified clutch is the cause?

Don't think it is the winter weather as it does the same in the summer, 2 days ago I drove around the block then parked it outside in the sun (coolish day) for about 5 hours and that was long enough for it to cool down and bind up again.

I just tried winding the brake adjustment back off and your correct that made no difference.

As I said I might tackle the brake band and while I am in there is there somewhere and/or something I could check or look for while I have it open?


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:08 am

Before you try anything else, start the car and drive it for ten miles or so, then stop and immediately drain the oil while it is hot. I suggest draining the hot oil into a clean container for inspection. It can be saved and used for oiing l the chassis. Refill with a quality 5W20 oil. Do not overfill. Then drive another ten miles and check the oil level and condition. Let the car sit for an hour or two and try starting it. You may see a considerable improvement in ease of cranking.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:11 am

I'd leave the brake band alone for now. Concentrate on getting the car where you can start it normally. The service brake on a Model T is marginal at best, even the late models with the wide brake band. If your car has excessively heavy or dirty oil, correcting that issue will improve starting ease and may improve the braking action. It should not be necessary to jack up a rear wheel to start your car.
Last edited by TXGOAT2 on Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:00 am

"After it is warm it hand cranks easy, you could park up for 2 hours and still hand crank easy with no binding but left overnight problem back."
/////////That describes the classic symptoms displayed by an otherwise good car that has oil in the crankcase that is too thick or too dirty.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:05 am

AMC Eagle 4wd system...


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Erik Johnson » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:30 am

You may have a worn-out transmission that is due for a rebuild.

The above may sound counterintuitive because one would think if the transmission were worn-out it would be easy to get a "free neutral" even if the exterior clutch linkeage and cam bolt are adjusted "correctly" and you are running 5W-30 or 10W-30 oil.

However, when the drum bushings are worn-out, the "fourth main" is worn out, the tailshaft is worn out and all of this causes the tranmission to be in general misaligment and "sway back" at rest and/or the clutch lugs are jagged, causing the clutch plates to get hung up or the clutch plates are warped, it can be tough to crank when cold, even if you are running 5W-30 or 10W-30.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:36 am

I would not use 5W-20 oil (again). That is NOT the same as the straight 20W oil Ford recommended.

Oils Chart.jpg
I suspect my mistaken use of 5W-20 oil may have been a contributing factor in the infamous Incident of the Failed Rod. I have since asked two Model T experts known for driving a lot what oil they use. One said 15W-40 and the other said 20W-50. Those are both a far cry from 5W-20.
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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:02 am

My car has run the Montana 500 with 0W20 synthetic oil. I've run the car several thousand miles with the same oil in it, at temperatures over 100 F on occasion, with no issues. A good 10W30 oil should give no problems in a T. Ford recommended a high quality, medium viscosity oil (about 20W) with a low cold test and high film strength. Ford specifically recommended against using heavy bodied oil. Modern, quality oils are superior to the best oil available a hundred years ago.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:03 am

Speaking of 20W50, it appears that WalMart has discontinued stocking their brand.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:33 pm

Consider the following - i have 3 T's. I use the same oil on all 3 and the other cars are fine. I change the oil at least every year sometimes twice as its so cheap.
This car wouldn't do more than 150 miles between changes and has been changed at this rate for the 7 years I have owned it. So can't be dirty oil, maybe the grade of oil is a consideration but the other 2 hand crank fine when cold on exactly the same oil.

Pat - I'm happy to try your suggestion of drive 10 miles ,drain hot then use 5w-20. I'll try anything.
The brakes are fine on the other 2 using this oil, one has woolen bands the other hard wearing machinery material I think but both cars have good trans braking. This one has wooden bands but I dont believe the braking is linked to this problem. Interesting you use 0w-20 synthetic in your 500 car. I was in Missoula a few years back for the 500.

Erik - I doubt the car has done 2,000 miles since it was rebuilt by the previous owner so it wont be worn out but it could have been set up wrong as some of your potential internal faults sound feasible.

Here is a pic of inside the trans.

Can anybody suggest a oil that is too slippery when first starting but is fine when everything is up to temp? I remember another post years ago where there was an oil discussed that behaved like this. Would be keen to try as waiting to drive off is better than jacking up every time as long as there is no long term risks.

[attachment=1]Inside cover.JPG[/attachment]

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by RajoRacer » Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:49 pm

As much as that brake band spring is compressed, I'd venture to say you're too tightly adjusted, lining about done and or brake pedal could have "whonky bent" issues.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:37 pm

Could the clutch or clutch linkage be adjusted to give more clearance when the clutch is disengaged? * (I bought my car from a Montana 500 competitor)

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:56 pm

Steve - I have wound the brake back but now I have virtually nothing, lucky I have a great handbrake.

I'm hoping the brake lining is simply worn down, easy fix but it looks ok. Not sure if you could could tell when it's worn by the eye?

Pat- That would be great if I could adjust to get more clearance, does anybody know how to do that?


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jul 06, 2022 10:13 pm

I haven't adjusted a T clutch. There are at least 2 adjustments, one being a bolt with a lock nut that contacts the cam device located on the brake cross shaft under the front floor boards. When the hand brake lever is pulled halfway back from the high speed position, the cam device operates the clutch release shaft to release the clutch. ("Neutral") When the hand brake lever is pulled all the way back to set the parking brake, the same device keeps the clutch released. The end of the bolt that contacts the cam device can wear down with use, and the result is that the clutch does not fully realease. Loosening the lock nut and screwing the bolt down by a turn or two will correct the problem, if it exists. Another adjustment can be made to the clutch unit itself. That's a little more sensitive and complex. The transmission brake pedal has a cam action that applies the brake band when the pedal is depressed. If the cam is worn, it's difficult to get a good brake adjustment. The emergency brakes and emergency brake clutch release are interactive, and correct adjustment is necessary to get full clutch action and full brake action. I have not had occasion to make these adjustments. The Ford T service manual is a good source of directions, especially the large format reproduction manuals, which have clearer pictures. There should be a number of helpful threads on the various adjustments in this forum.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:24 pm

Speaking of 20W50, it appears that WalMart has discontinued stocking their brand.

That may be a local issue. I bought a couple of quarts just last week. I also have to drive to the Walmart in the county seat to buy things I used to get locally.
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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:34 am

I've bought WahMart 20/50 by the gallon or 5 qt jug for many years. It's great for older model, "normal" engines and hit/miss type engines. I used to get it for about $4.70 a jug. It was over $12.00 a jug, last time they had any. It's all synthetic or synthetic blend now, with emphasis on multi-grades with low first numbers. Need non-detergent, straight grade oil? Good luck finding any. Ford Type F ATF is disappearing, too.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by speedytinc » Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:21 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:34 am
I've bought WahMart 20/50 by the gallon or 5 qt jug for many years. It's great for older model, "normal" engines and hit/miss type engines. I used to get it for about $4.70 a jug. It was over $12.00 a jug, last time they had any. It's all synthetic or synthetic blend now, with emphasis on multi-grades with low first numbers. Need non-detergent, straight grade oil? Good luck finding any. Ford Type F ATF is disappearing, too.
My local napa has 30 wt non detergent. Behind the counter. You have to ask.
I think they carry it as a break in oil.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:46 am

Note that when adjusting the Model T trasmission brake, it is not expected to get a "high" pedal, like you'd want in a modern vehicle. The brake pedal will normally go down a ways before the brake takes hold. It should have about 2" of clearance above the floorboard when firmly applied. The reverse and low pedal will have about 1 to 1 1/2" of clearance above the floor board when firmly applied. The hand brake lever is also a long-travel affair, which should go way forward past vertical when in fully released. "Neutral" should occupy a range of lever travel near the vertical position, plus or minus 1 inch or so either side of vertical. When the lever is pulled back toward the seat from vertical by approximately 2", the parking brakes should begin to engage, and the brakes should be set tight with the lever about 2" forward of the seat cushion.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:21 pm

Each of my cars have different pedal angles/positions.
The only reason the brake was adjusted so far up was it just doesn't work at all unless it is adjusted there. I suspected the drum was turned down too far and a normal band lining doesn't work.
Maybe you can buy/make a thicker lining just for the brake to compensate the reduced diameter of the drum....if thats the cause?
I will try a new standard band first, maybe that will do it or at least make the brake usable even if I do need to fit a new band every year.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by perry kete » Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:41 pm

The brake band may be OK but your brake peddle may be bent and may need straightened to make it work properly
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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:43 pm

If the drum has been turned way down, the rim is probably very thin and will be prone to rapid overheating and cracking under anything other than very light use. First of all, I would investigate the brake pedal mechanism, which can wear to the point that it fails to apply enough motion to the band mechanism to clamp the brake band tightly. Over-tightening the band adjustment can improve braking action in this situation, but then the brake may not release fully, even when the pedal is fully released. That will cause serious problems. Be sure that the floorboard does not limit brake pedal movement. Pushing the brake pedal down should cause the pedal to move to the left a fraction of an inch on a US car. This sideways movement of the pedal shaft is what applies the brake band. If the ramp/cam mechanism is worn or loose, pressing down the pedal will not apply the proper sideways movement to the shaft that applies the brake band.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:06 pm

I removed the Hogs head by myself yesterday. Decided to replace all the bands, I intended to do it with HH in place but I couldn't see how to clear the pin and spring to allow the ear to be removed and then spin the brake band out? Remember this is RHD so the brake is an external adjuster. Anyway too late now its off.
After removal the Brake band looks more worn now I have it out so I'm hoping a new band will rectify and the brake drum feels the same diameter when running finger over them as the others so I might be in luck.
What it has done is provided some pics of inside the trans, maybe someone can see a potential cause for the binding?

I will reline the shoes today and finish cleaning all the surfaces.

I haven't removed or refitted a HH before so I would appreciate your experience and suggestions for the refitting process-

I have both felt and neoprene seals for the front arch on hand, what do you suggest and what sealant and/or method would you use. Would you run sealant on both sides if you used neoprene?
The same advice is appreciated for the ordinary base gasket and preparing for the refit.

Thanks in advance

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by speedytinc » Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:40 pm

Dress the sharp edges of that chunk missing from the low drum.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Kerry » Sat Jul 09, 2022 7:50 pm

Reverse drum. :o :D

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Jul 09, 2022 8:04 pm

It will make life simpler if you remove the 2 lower ball joint bolts and slightly pull back the rear axle assembly with a ratchet strap or similar to give you just a little more wiggle room to set the hogshead back down. Fun part is holding the shift fork steady whilst attempting to settle everything back into position. I cut a new ball cap gasket in half, cut off the top half of the existing gasket and run a bead of black silicone on both sides of the new gasket half. Not a really fun job but is very doable !

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Sun Jul 10, 2022 3:11 am

Neoprene or felt?

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Jul 10, 2022 11:01 am

I've always used felt after I put on rubber gloves and massage black RTV into it - let it set up for a time, trim to fit and put a good dab of RTV in each corner.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Sun Jul 10, 2022 4:50 pm

Thanks, I was planning on pulling back the rear end either with straps or the blocks of wood method.
The RTV rubbed into both sides of the felt is a simple option if it works.
I see that chip out of the drum but I am reluctant to grind it smooth as the filings will end up in the trans.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:31 pm

Sharp edges will cut the edge of the band faster.
You can place magnets around the area to pick up the flying chips.
A few loose powdered iron bits wont hurt your motor. Minimize to be on the safe side.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:51 pm

Thanks John but will they hurt the mag if any get into it?


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jul 10, 2022 6:30 pm

Rata Road wrote:
Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:51 pm
Thanks John but will they hurt the mag if any get into it?
The field coil should have all the insulation it needs to keep metal dust from shorting it out. If not, during the natural wear in the motor, shorting would occur anyway.

The magnets will naturally pick up iron dust from cylinder wear, yes minimize it. Your magnets should have some now, unless you already wiped them off. Stuff that doesnt stick to the magnets will end up in the bottom of the pan or to your transmission oil screen magnet. The fuzzing of band lining concerns me more than a few bits of iron dust.

Another method I use when drilling balance holes in a flywheel with charged magnets is to set a shop vac nozzle close to where I am drilling to suck away the chips as they are produced. This makes for minimal dust sticking to the magnets, which I wipe away when done.

Using hand files in your case will maximize your control of the chips as opposed to a die grinder.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:53 pm

Ok I get that.
There wasn't any fuzzing on the band I took out that I noticed so hopefully it hasn't been a problem yet. I will recheck that band and also give the chip a clean up. Don't know what caused it or if it was there when the previous owner assembled it. Just lucky it stopped with the chip at the top otherwise we would have missed it.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:16 pm

"It will make life simpler if you remove the 2 lower ball joint bolts and slightly pull back the rear axle assembly...."

If you remove the lower ball joint bolts, with the hogshead off, will the 4th main alignment be lost?

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:49 am

Hope not Pat as I done just that this arvo. Works great as it gives a gap for the refit. I have read elsewhere that some people chock the rear of the front wheels so the car cant roll backwards then jack up the rear wheels and place a 4 inch block just forward of the rear tyre vertical centre line. When the jacks are lowered the car stretches backward and opens the same gap. Hence I presume it doesn't muck with the alignment.

I had a dry run refitting the HH today and the exhaust manifold is a pain when lowering it by yourself so I took that off. With the new gap at the rear and manifold gone its looking good. I have some sealant in the mail.


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Allan » Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:42 am

Here are a few random tips to help, or not. Your choice. I know of no thicker bands to compensate for a worn drum. You can compensate for same by rolling a sheet metal band to go between the standard lining and the Ford band. I have these rolled at a sheet metal shop, in different thicknesses, and trial fit them to select one to give the best results, before riveting the linings to the band.

I always use the whole length of the felt gasket. I squish black RTV sealant on both sides to make a felt re-inforced RTV gasket. Put the ends in place over the land on the block and work the rest of the gasket down on the land. The RTV will hold it there.

The bronze clutch fork can be held in place with dental floss. Tie the floss around the top and then tie the loose ends around the shaft. If you can't retrieve the stuff after the hogshead is on, it doesn't really matter..

Use RTV on the pan gaskets. Both ends may need trimming at the front end to get the bolt holes to line up, under the felt gasket. These side gaskets can be held in place with a couple of the bolts threaded though them from underneath, and held in place with split pins. Once you have the hogshead down with a couple of bolts to hold it, the split pins can be pulled and the rest of the bolts installed.

The ball gasket can be fitted whole. Just cut it at the top and feed it past the innards and let the bolts hold it in place. I make the cut at 45* and use RTV again as a sealant.

It is such a pig of a job that it pays to get rid of any encumbrances that may get in the way. This may mean removing the exhaust pipe, and even the exhaust manifold. I back off the clutch adjusting bolt that engages on the brake cross shaft. If you can organise it, fix a chain/wire through the inspection cover holes so you can have the weight of the cover supported as you lower it into position.

Get a second pair of hands to help.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:53 am

Thanks Allan some great pointers there.
As I said I have already removed the manifold etc. When I removed the brake band I discovered that it was thin in the top areas so hopefully a new band will fix it. Before I fitted the new lining I found the band out of round. I tried for a bit to fix it but I have 12 spare old bands I got from a swap meet and found a perfect round one among them so I put the new lining on that one. I'm hoping being out of shape was the cause of the uneven wearing and poor brakes and not a turned down drum. But I also noticed that a couple of the old bands had a sheet metal lining under the old woolen linings, now I know why. What a great idea, do you use longer rivets?


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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Allan » Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:50 am

I have not found a need to use longer rivets with the sheetmetal spacers. I clamp the band and new spacer around a sacrificial drum, and drill the holes through the existing holes in the band. That way the holes will be in the right place.

I have no experience with wooden linings. Perhaps the spacers were needed in your car to make those particular linings work.

From your photo of the drums it appears that the spring between the ears on the first gear band is not seating very well. I'd be checking out the ears on that band.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Transmission binds when starting cold?

Post by Rata Road » Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:27 am

I'll check those ears Allan.
There is no spacers on the bands in my car they were in a pile of old bands that I purchased at a swap meet.
I have woolen bands on one T which work very nice, Hard wearing home made heavy machinery clutch type material on another that work ok and apparently don't wear out and this one has wood bands. The wood bands work the best in my opinion, they grab instantly and are just easier to drive with so I'm sticking with wood plus they were on special for $48 v Kevlar for about $110. Next car I do I might try Kevlar if I ever need to do another.

Thanks

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