MTFCA Forum

Seeking comments on upgrading braking system. In speaking too other T owners I hear Rocky Mountain is preferred except for braking in reverse and heavy rain is a possible issue. So I see there is a conversion to use the conventional rear drum brake with shoes inside the drum which may shield from water and may not be a issue when backing in reverse.

Seeking to get feedback on which is best for the money to be spent. I know there's a kit with hydraulic disc brakes which is not a option from a cost stand point.

I have a 1926 Tudor with large rear drums and relined shoes that works great if you need to brake quickly when using emergency brake lever.

As for me I'm a T rookie since I have approximately 3 hours of drive time on a actual roads and dealing with Corvettes or Mustangs flying buy, versus driving in our large yard at he age of ten fifty six years ago.

Dwight,

These will be general comments for you to consider. In an emergency, most people will mash the brake pedal while holding the steering wheel with both hands for control. Doing this will set Rocky Mountain, AC, or other external auxiliary brakes. If a person has to release the steering wheel to apply the parking brake, it will take more time and the parking brake isn't designed to stop the vehicle whereas auxiliary brakes are.

If you are worried about braking while traveling backward, keep the transmission band brake adjusted properly and be ready to use the parking brake if/when necessary. Keep in mind, you'll have to keep the Rocky Mountains adjusted as well. Too bad we don't have a commercially available self adjusting system for all the brakes.

Good Luck,
Terry

Large drum parking brake has the same brake surface as the R/M brake conversion.(same drum) I have the big drum axle in 3 T's. Each has an emergency brake handle extension. I have conditioned myself to use this set up. Brakes easily lock the rear wheels.
Of course, the lining has to be kept adjusted & grease free. I would not waste money on the current R/M brake unit offered & have, in fact removed them from one T to rely on the parking brake.

Langs offers a foot brake equalizer to use the parking brake shoes as a service brake in conjunction with the transmission brake. Like a R/M brake. A friend installed one & is very happy with it.

Technically the Model T has an automatic transmission.
(Please no criticisms on thie following description) So consider the "brake lever" to be the same as a the shift arm on a modern automatic transmission with positions P, N and D with the foot pedal letting you put it in overdrive. So the circumstances upon which you would put the "brake lever" in the P position on a Model T are exactly the same as for a Modern car.
Large drum options
AC Brakes are no available for large drum
Original Rocky Mountain have the reverse issue
Repro Rock Mountain are designed to resolve some of those issues
There are Disk Brake kits
Some gifted individual have modified Metropolitan hydraulic brakes to work
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/82 ... 1535811041

Actually, the original/early R/M brakes with the brake band center anchor, worked excellent forward & reverse.
Its the current repos pictured that still dont work in reverse. Last set I installed was a year ago.
One must be very careful to retain enough of the transmission brake for stopping in reverse.
I didnt mention disks, cause I cant stomach the ugly. I still say, make a false drum like cover to hide em.

Large drum internal lined shoes are about the best you can do - even with the current R.M. brakes, you're just going to lessen the impact when you hit the object in front of you ! Without front brakes, one needs to proceed like you have NO brakes - be vewwy, vewwy cautious !

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:18 pm

Large drum internal lined shoes are about the best you can do - even with the current R.M. brakes, you're just going to lessen the impact when you hit the object in front of you ! Without front brakes, one needs to proceed like you have NO brakes - be vewwy, vewwy cautious !

Yes as you slide your locked up rear wheels.

I know the cost of disc brakes might seem high, but with other drivers the way they are, it is well worth the cost. I just put a set on my 12 touring, I now have more "Pease of mind ".
I also plan on putting disc brakes on the other cars I will be touring with.

Fire_chief wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:39 pm

I know the cost of disc brakes might seem high, but with other drivers the way they are, it is well worth the cost. I just put a set on my 12 touring, I now have more "Pease of mind ".
I also plan on putting disc brakes on the other cars I will be touring with.

Yes, as you slide your locked up rear wheels.

The previous owner of my ‘25 Coupe had it set up where stepping on the brake pedal activates the transmission brake band, rear lined internal brake bands and external Rocky Mountain brakes all at the same time. It works wonderfully but adjusting the three separate brake systems where they work together at the same time pretty much equally is a chore especially since both rear set ups are activated by woven steel cables.

The rear drums on a 26 work great as a service brake, and have done so for me for the last 20 years. You can get a bonded lining for the shoes when the original asbestos ones wear out. Don't bother with the repro rivet on lining which the suppliers sell; I found it less effective than the originals.
I see no point in RM's for a 26 when the braking surface area is the same. Best of all no need to do any mods at all to the car - just use the handbrake lever for the service brake. (Though I did eventually install flip up oilers for the handbrake lever). And before the usual comment of 'but it puts the transmission in neutral' appears, let me say that by simply stepping on the low pedal, engine braking is restored - if required.

If you take a typical modern car or light truck and disable the front brakes, you will lose about 70% of its straight line stopping power, and even more in many situations.

Any external contracting band brake will have wet/mud issues. Any auxilliary brake that uses the original T lightweight stamped steel brake drum will have very limited ability to handle and dissipate heat. That's not a serious handicap in an isolated panic stop situation, but it's a serious problem where the brakes are used for repeated hard stops within a short time, or on long steep descents. A finned cast iron brake drum and modern-type, lined shoes would be a great addition to a T with the larger 26-27 type brakes. The lining would need to be a "fast" lining that would work well witout hydraulic assist. External contracting auxilliary brakes have better cooling for the lining, but only aggravate the heat disspation issue with the stamped steel drums. Watch the Fords slide by....

Have been touring in my ‘27 for over 15 years with the repro R-M brakes. Wouldn’t ever take them off!

Unlike those who state they don’t work in reverse, actually they do, just less stopping power as when stopping going forward. As same as the old days drum brakes we grew up with, in heavy rain just press lightly and get the linings dry, and rain stops are the good again. I do have the Ford trans brake set for it to grab after the R-Ms engage rather strong, so the trans brake assists backing down a grade. Works fine that way.

And the equalizer bar also applies the R-M brakes, along with the rear inside shoes, when the emergency hand lever is set, so can park on any grade.

Best of all for touring in hilly country, those long grades down, the T can develop pretty good gravity speed! Even with throttle closed to have engine compression brake, those R-Ms can the ‘tapped’ just slightly and briefly to ‘check your speed’ and they are nifty for that. You can’t ‘check’ your downhill speed with the Ford trans brakes as well as those R-Ms do.

"R-Ms can the ‘tapped’ just slightly and briefly to ‘check your speed’ and they are nifty for that." *Exactly.

Intermittent application allows time for heat to dissipate. A tight, well-tuned engine allows for a slow idle setting and maximum engine braking.

My opinion might be somewhat biased, because I live in southern California where most of the rain comes between November and March. And even then it can go for a week or more without rain and very rarely snows.
I do live in the mountains so like to have good brakes which will work even if something between the transmission and the rear wheels breaks.
I use the modern Rocky Mountain brakes. I adjust so that if I push hard on the pedal the transmission brake engages. I adjust the parking brake so that it comes on first and the Rocky engages with one more click of the lever.
Now I will give some opinions. It is rare to need to brake hard when moving backward because if the engine cuts out going uphill, the car will not be going very fast backward before the brake is applied, so the transmission brake will hold easily. If not the parking brake plus Rocky mountain works fine.
If it is necessary to use the parking brake lever when stopping, be sure to use the low pedal at the same time so you will also have engine braking, because parking brake will automatically put the transmission in neutral. Another thing about using the rocky mountain brake in Ruckstell or other auxiliary lower gear, it will actually multiply the braking power of the Rocky Mountain or other rear wheel brakes.
The Disk brakes stop great, however, in my opinion, they just don't look right on a T and since you will not get any more braking power if the wheels are locked up, it won't stop you any quicker. The only advantage is equal pressure on both wheels But any brakes will do that if carefully adjusted.
Norm

Replace your flywheel & magneto with a powerful custom motor-generator. Add a bigger battery and a controller so you can use the motor-generator as a starter and as a regenerative brake, or for added torque when accellerating, besides charging the battery and running accessories. Have a dump load to assure auxilliary braking ability with a fully charged battery. Eliminates the stock battery, starter, generator, flywheel, and magneto.

I knew the man who had the Rocky Mountain brakes made. He was a very nice person, with no mechanical ability. Initially he copied the original Rocky Mountain design, but never did the required research enough to find the equalizer components. It's funny that I've been able to do this 30 years later.
At a later date he became interested in the AC design on a 1926 that a mutual friend owned, so he decided to use that design, and call it Rocky Mountain! If he would have done more research, and kept the original design, things would have been better. He used the Bennett style equalizer which uses rods instead of a cable and equalizer, which necessitates a tab being welded to the brake pedal. The original design used a simple clamp that was attached to the brake pedal. To that was attached a short rod which went to a bell crank on the u- joint area, and from there was a simple equalizer, with a 3 inch pulley which went to the brake bands. A quick simple operation which could be installed even by an idiot in an afternoon. I have three running T's with these brakes and they all work fine.

Original Smith wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:16 am

I knew the man who had the Rocky Mountain brakes made. He was a very nice person, with no mechanical ability. Initially he copied the original Rocky Mountain design, but never did the required research enough to find the equalizer components. It's funny that I've been able to do this 30 years later.
At a later date he became interested in the AC design on a 1926 that a mutual friend owned, so he decided to use that design, and call it Rocky Mountain! If he would have done more research, and kept the original design, things would have been better. He used the Bennett style equalizer which uses rods instead of a cable and equalizer, which necessitates a tab being welded to the brake pedal. The original design used a simple clamp that was attached to the brake pedal. To that was attached a short rod which went to a bell crank on the u- joint area, and from there was a simple equalizer, with a 3 inch pulley which went to the brake bands. A quick simple operation which could be installed even by an idiot in an afternoon. I have three running T's with these brakes and they all work fine.

Photos of an AC brake system. The original linkage is pictured next to Mc Eacherns reproduction.

Goat is just plain silly. He might as well get a modern electric car or hybrid. Original is probably correct, but my comments are according to what is available on the market today.
Interestingly, I bought a set from Chaffins about 30 years ago which have cast into the brackets,"AC". They had no connection to slide the parking brake connection, so when you put foot on the brake, the parking brake moved. Later I bought a connection with the sliding clevis and works just fine. Later I bought two sets which are exactly like the AC version with the name Rocky Mountain cast into them.
Norm

I spent my money on a Model T. It's capable of using all the braking ability of both rear tires just as it is.

Hi Dwight,
Welcome to the hobby. Sounds like you have established that the park brake is capable of performing to the standard you are looking for. Adding the equalizer should give you what you are looking for. All drum brakes have issues when wet, inside or outside. Yes they should work well in reverse.
To the best of my knowledge A-C brakes are not available for 26-27 drums. You will find some that have done the equalizer with large drums love it and some that don't. Dollar for dollar the equalizer is the least expensive and the least noticeable (if that's a concern ) If money and originality is no object Disc brakes are by far the best all-round set up. Have a great time with your adventures in Ting.
Craig.

As to the original question of Rockies versus the stock large drum rear brake. I ran the ford brakes as the service brake for a while but I thought the adjustment to be problematic. Properly adjusted Rockies are a better brake.

Since most of us drive our T’s much less than our modern cars, I would not count on pulling the brake handle in an emergency stop.

Andy

Using two braking system with one peddle will always be a balancing act one system will always activate sooner than the other so set the one that works the best to activate first and the other to back it up if there is wear or failure. You cant make them work in tandem because they will rear at different rates. I would not recommend eliminating the park brake if you run Rockies if you have a auxiliary trans or the stock brake as back up even if you don't have a auxiliary trans.
Craig.

Thanks for all the comments it gives me things to investigate more than I have at this time.

I did forget to ask about the brake band material in the transmission if that impacts braking or it's more of a wear issue. My bands are cotton and would expect the wear may not be as good as Kevlar, but driving habits can impact wear over time.

radiatorman wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:47 am

Thanks for all the comments it gives me things to investigate more than I have at this time.

I did forget to ask about the brake band material in the transmission if that impacts braking or it's more of a wear issue. My bands are cotton and would expect the wear may not be as good as Kevlar, but driving habits can impact wear over time.

The controversy over cotton, wood or Kevlar continues. But I think the Kevlar fans, and the others, would caution you about hard braking causing heat build up and possible damage to the transmission brake drum regardless of what you use.
Pumping the brakes to avoid locking the wheels has always worked, engine braking as well, in advance of a stop works well. Your decision should consider the area, hills & valleys vs flat land,and the volume of traffic in which you will be driving.

I think auxiliary brakes are a good idea. That being said I was driving my 14 Touring, with Kevlar linings and no auxiliary brakes, and had a girl pull out in front of me without looking to see if there was oncoming traffic. To my surprise I discovered that if you push hard enough on the brake pedal you can lock up the brakes. I left two skinny skid marks on the road.

It's ok to use the brake for a quick stop at low speed, but for slowing down from a high speed, especially going downhill the auxiliary brakes are good. Kevlar will heat up if you ride the brake and If you slam them on at high speed, it could lead to breaking something in the drive shaft or rear axle and going into free wheeling.
Norm

Model T wheel brakes, even the late model improved brakes, besides being rear wheel only, do not have anywhere near enough heat dissipating ability to support sustained use of the brakes to control the car's speed on long, steep descents or for multiple consecutive high speed stops. That's true whether you have stock brakes or period-style auxilliary brakes. While auxilliary brakes do help, sustained hard use will still overheat the brakes, particularly the brake drums. Stock rear brakes and period auxilliary rear brakes all use the same, inadequate, pressed steel brake drums. On long downhill runs, you've got to use engine braking to control your speed. It's good practice anytime. If you add modern disc brakes, you will vastly improve heat dissipating ability and resistance to damage from heat, but you will still have only 2 wheel brakes and very limited stopping power.

I have only used the emergency brake once since kids playing started to run across the road in a residual area, so I have changed my route to avoid where there is a lot of children. The one incident has triggered this investigation for additional braking capability and I use engine braking all the time.

The key is to be looking a head while driving and using engine braking to assist in stopping or just slowing down when your moving at 35 mph and driving a non hydraulic braking system.