MTFCA Forum

Hi.

I just disassembled my rear end and it's my turn to gather the parts needed for a rebuild. I'm not that experienced with the model t. Was therefore a bit surprised that there is no seal between the differential and universal joint. I have already read in the forum that engine/gear oil can run into the differential. But I think the opposite way is also possible. I would like to use the original Hyatt bearings again.
What's your experience there? Has anyone done a seal? Maybe even the Axle heavy inner felt installed? Would that make sense?

I would also like to install the Safety Floating Rear Hub on the outside. Do I have to seal the axle with the Axle heavy inner felt or with the Modern inner oil seal?

I thank you for the support.
Sorry for the bad language.

greetings from Switzerland

As for oil going from the differential up to the engine that is not likely. Liquids run down hill. The modern seals are much easier to install in the axle. As to the safety hubs, if you replace with new axles, there isn't much need for the safety hubs. Since safety hubs require modifying the axle halves, you can't go back to the original configuration. If you really want them, I have as set of them plus the modified axle halves if interested. Price is $400.00 but shipping cost could be prohibitive. As to the spool, the adjustable Regan spool is very easy to set up and would prevent oil going from the engine to the differential. It is available from Birdhaven. It is part number T-2587-ADJ. Considering how mountainous Switzerland is you may want to consider a KC Warford. This is easier to install than a Ruxtell but does require modifying the drive shaft and torque tube 12 inches and cutting a section out of the front running board bracket. If you install either Ruxtell or Warford accessory brakes are a must as they can get into a neutral and the transmission brake will have no effect. We haven't been to your beautiful country for may years but we do want to go back. When we were there we traveled by motorcycle!!

A little OT, but the bride and I visited Switzerland some years ago and loved it. One highlight was the trip on the Glacier Express.

The Club publishes a booklet on Front and rear Axle. If you have a Ruckstell or plan to install one, get the Ruckstell Axle booklet. These books will give you step by step directions on how to do the work. They are written in easy to understand English and many pictures of the parts.
Most important thing to check is the condition of the gears and bearings and also the thrust washers. The original washers were babbit, but it is recommended to use bronze. All the clearances and means of adjustment are given.
Norm

Hello, everyone

Thank you for your feedback.

I got a 400+ page Ford model T service manual that already gives me some information.
I'm having a bit of a hard time with a manual in English as I'm not blessed with the English language at all.
In this forum, however, I can work very well with the online translator and have already received a great deal of information. That's why the somewhat imprecise translation in my entries.

Mr. John Zibell, I am very interested in your message. You write that with new axles, the safety hubs are not really necessary. Are new axles stronger than the original Ford T axles? I read in the forum that old and new axles broke. Are there different qualities from different manufacturers? What is your opinion?

I'm not at all sure what to do with my rear axle.

I bought the Touring 1926 made in Canada a few months ago. It was imported into Switzerland in 1988, I don't know where it came from. I suspect it hasn't been in service for a while though.
Now I have started to disassemble the vehicle to rebuild everything necessary to make it drivable. I'm always surprised how original the vehicle is and practically every component is marked with Ford made in Canada. This is causing me more and more to keep the vehicle original, which also raises questions about the safety hubs.

I examined all parts of the rear axle. The largest part is absolutely fine and can be reused.
The thrust washers are made of Babbit, already cracked and of course need to be replaced.
The Hyatt bearings on the Pinio as well as the inner Hyatt bearings are good and the dimensions are practically new. But the outer bearings are loose and worn. The axle shafts have also shrunk on the outside and the Pinion Bearing Spool has pitting. If anyone knows of an intact Pinion Bearing Spool or Hyatt outboard bearings it would be very welcome.

Due to the defective Hyatt bearings and worn shafts and also for safety, I thought of safety hubs.

But I don't like cutting the axis. That's why I'm interested in your offer, Mr. John Zibell. Would it be possible for you to send me some photos of the safety hubs and the axle halves? Preferably by email to betschartbeat@gmx.ch

I thank everyone for the support

By the way, during dismantling there was another surprise. In a hole from the differential case there was still a remnant of the casting. Barely a touch and it was gone!

If only that had come between the sprockets!

If the spool only has that worn side, turn it 180 degrees. You only need a good thrust surface opposite the ring gear. Give it a light cylinder hone.

Axle bearing outer surfaces look ok. They originally measured 1.062" . if smooth & near 1.060, you are good. Bearing rollers originally are .500" .498" rollers are real good. Some of the suppliers bearing sleeves are thicker than stock & can tighten the wear issues.
I wouldnt worry about breaking original axles, unless they were run with the type inner seal that cut a shallow groove in the shaft.

Stay with stock, original parts if possible. The exception would be one of those double timkin pinion bearing conversions if you cant find a good original hyatt bearing.
By no means use the solid hyatt solid replacement rollers unless its going into a museum as a static display.

Hello speedytinc

I checked my axle shafts. They still measure 1,057" on the outside. They were also operated with the incisive seals. Furthermore, the keyway for the hub is no longer quite 100%. I think they would still be sufficient for operation with safety hubs. Without them, I have my doubts.

The outer Hyatt bearings are loose and worn on one side.

The spool tip is great.
In an emergency, I could imagine using them like this. But I'm looking around to see if there's anything else I can find.

Regards

Vonau,

I'll try to get some pictures of the axle halves and hubs for you. Also included is the kit to drill and tap the holes into the T hub and brake drum for the extra Allen screws to secure the safety hub to the rear hub. A friend of mine currently has possession of them as he goes to swap meets and we are trying to sell them at the meets. The new axles from Snyders are excellent quality and a a bit longer than original to make up for worn hubs. Remember the axles you have are nearly 100 years old and you don't know what stress you have had. I suggest you contact Dan Hatch via this forum. He has many T parts and may have a good differential cage available.

Hello, everyone

Thanks for the feedback.

I have now discovered another problem. What's the best thing to do when the ball is loose at the driveshaft? Tried to put in a disc from Snyders. But then it gets too tight.

Greetings from switzerland

Since adding a ball "shim" makes for too tight, you dont have a problem of "excessive" wear or loosness.

The shims as they are made a too wide. Trim a little strip off the side of the shim towards the drive shaft. If there is still a gap between the flange and the ball cap a paper gasket can be installed between the two so the bolts can be tightened without causing the ball to bind up. I've done it this way several times and was able to eliminate all play in the ball connection. Getting the fit tight again here will often eliminate an annoying clunk when shifting into high and can also cure noises as the car comes to a stop with the transmission brake.

Stephen

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:28 am

Since adding a ball "shim" makes for too tight, you dont have a problem of "excessive" wear or loosness.

Agreed!

I would not worry about it. It is just a housing for the universal joint. Most important is to make sure the 4 th main is straight on the crankshaft and pan. Is it still loose when all four bolts are tight or just now in the picture. When you have it all installed it may not be loose anymore.

Thanks for the feedback.

The ball cap is widened quite a bit on the back.
It would be best if I could replace these as I have now disassembled the whole driveshaft and rear axle.

But I can't find a replacement for a 1926 from any supplier. Is there really no replacement for the ball cap?

Greeting

Hi

I checked and measured my spool and the Hyatt drive shaft bearing again. I would like to keep the Hyattbearing.

The spool measures 2,377 to 2,387 inches on the inside.
The Hyattlager is nicely parallel and measures 0.559 to 0.560 inches.

Can these parts still be used? Does anyone have a spool in better condition that they would sell?

Greetings from switzerland

The spool only needs 1 good side, the thrust side.(opposite the ring gear) Give it a quick hone. If you have a good side, you are good to go.
The bearing measures good.
Any of that little bit of wear will be taken up during the new ring & pinion mesh setup.

Spool std size is 2.375 & bearing is .562"

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:44 pm

The spool only needs 1 good side, the thrust side.(opposite the ring gear) Give it a quick hone. If you have a good side, you are good to go.
The bearing measures good.
Any of that little bit of wear will be taken up during the new ring & pinion mesh setup.

Spool std size is 2.375 & bearing is .562"

What thrust side do you mean? The bottom side, that takes pressure during braking? The top side, that sees pressure while driving? The far side, (away from the ring gear), that sees the pressure of holding the gears in mesh?

I do see your point. But, I'd only do what you say as a last resort. I'd search out a better spool rather than use one .012 out-of-round.

Hi

I'm also afraid the wear and tear is a bit high. Further, this will make it difficult to set the gears green. But finding a good spool is difficult?

Greeting

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:30 pm

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:44 pm

The spool only needs 1 good side, the thrust side.(opposite the ring gear) Give it a quick hone. If you have a good side, you are good to go.
The bearing measures good.
Any of that little bit of wear will be taken up during the new ring & pinion mesh setup.

Spool std size is 2.375 & bearing is .562"

What thrust side do you mean? The bottom side, that takes pressure during braking? The top side, that sees pressure while driving? The far side, (away from the ring gear), that sees the pressure of holding the gears in mesh?

I do see your point. But, I'd only do what you say as a last resort. I'd search out a better spool rather than use one .012 out-of-round.

Of course, I would consider finding a better spool. Real nice ones are not that common. (I look @ everyone I see @ swap meets & rear end part outs.)
If I was particular, I would find an enclosed spool & get a new bearing race. They are available new.

But with one side only .002" worn, It could be a very good part functionally. Turning the spool 180 degrees puts the virgin part of the spool in play. That area got no use. I get your concerns in accelerating & braking regarding the pinion's up & down movement. Let me address that.

If I had the part in my hand for proper scrutiny I could make a definitive decision either way. My experience with these spools suggests what I would expect.
Thrust side 3 o clock.(Virgin race, may be standard) ["The pressure side holding gears in mesh"]
2.377" measured @ 12 & 6 o clock. [Braking/driving pressure]
Worst wear @ 9. This worn area(bad spot) runs from 8 to 10 o clock. This is closest to the gear mesh & is not contacted with the bearing.
Between 7 & 8 and 10 &11 the wear tapers.
I hope my explanation is clear enough to get my view clear on the subject.
To my thinking, this spool still has very good dimensions where it counts.

I have used spools in the pile that measure 2.380" & 2.382" deemed good enough to save. This one in question could be a much better part IMO.

Hello Speedytinc

Thank you for your detailed description. I have now measured my spool again. It's close to your guess.

12&6 o clock 2.378"
1&7 o clock 2.380"
2&8 o clock 2.387"
3&9 o clock 2.385"
4&10 o clock 2.387"
5&11 o clock 2.382"

The worn area can be seen in the pictures. 11 to 1 o clock is also porous. That was below. Maybe rust due to water / condensation in the gearbox?

Can I risk it with this spool?

greetings from Switzerland

In all likelihood, if you positioned it in the best possible way, as described above, you would probably be okay. I don't imagine the rear end was needing a rebuild solely because of this issue. I'm sure many of us, with cars restored long ago and lots of miles on them now, have this same situation and don't even know it. Still, I would at least attempt to find a better one first.

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:06 pm

In all likelihood, if you positioned it in the best possible way, as described above, you would probably be okay. I don't imagine the rear end was needing a rebuild solely because of this issue. I'm sure many of us, with cars restored long ago and lots of miles on them now, have this same situation and don't even know it. Still, I would at least attempt to find a better one first.

Agreed. A quick hone will confirm the best of the bearing wall. I think its usable. Look @ the worn spot & make sure there is no metal flaking away. If there is, I wouldnt use it for risk of the metal doing damage to your bearing & new inner race.

….. …………………….

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:35 pm

Jerry & John if he ordered the Funproject/ Birdhaven type wouldn’t that eliminate his concern and issue? Just a thought if he is going to have to have it shipped anyway. I personally think it is a much better way to go. IMHO. Best John

I stay with original parts.
I understand that F/P type conversions work very well. I would consider that a good option.

I'm with John T,
I picked up a modern bearing pinion for my Ruckstell while I had it in hand I machined a spool for the modern bearings using a spool that was in the same shape as yours is ( that was the reason I purchased the new style one) I'm not putting down the Hyatt pinion bearing Quite the opposite I have two complete set aside for the future. But sometimes good spools are hard to find when you need one right away.
Craig.

Thanks for the feedback

I realize that a modern warehouse would be the easiest way.
Although we have many classic cars in Switzerland, Model Ts are very rare. To be honest, I've never seen a mobile Tin Lizzy live and I'm probably crazy that I bought one myself.
When I disassembled the rear axle, I was so fascinated by the old technology that I want to keep it. I think maybe someone will come after me and be fascinated by it again.

Finding a good spool here from Switzerland is very difficult. I recently bought one off ebay. The inner surfaces looked very good, but measuring them showed much greater wear than my spool.

I am very grateful for all the help here in the forum.

I would contact Lang's and ask what good, used spool they might have in their inventory.

https://www.modeltford.com/