MTFCA Forum

This discussion as to whether or not a car sold was a 1910 Model T is not needed. All Model T's look alike, and Henry knew this. Henry's solution to distinguishing a 1909 from a 1920 was by tracking the production number. And he wanted to make certain that every one was getting the year car they wanted by the number stamped on the motor block.

He took great pains to inform the mechanics of the period to make certain that the integrity of a car was kept by keeping the production number.

I am certain that I can easily change my 1922 into a 1915 or a 1925 by stamping the proper production number to the left side of the motor.

We all know that the year of a car is that showing on the left side of the motor. At least that is what the article states.

Why else would there be a list of motor numbers associate with the Ford cars from 1908 to 1927.

I think I even heard of a 1947 Model T in existence.

There are so many inaccuracies in this thread, I won’t dignify it with a rebuttal. Jim Patrick

One of my favorite Dave Barry columns was about people who don't get it. He illustrated the point with a joke about Richard Nixon having to wear electric underwear that would give him a shock when he lied. Dave said there are three possible reactions to the joke. One would be, "Ha ha! You really stuck it that geek Nixon." Another would be, "How dare you make sport of our wonderful former president?" In either case, the respondent would recognize that the joke was a joke. But another group would write long, serious letters, explaining why electric underwear wouldn't work. Dave called the third group the humor impaired.

jiminbartow wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 02, 2022 8:20 pm

There are so many inaccuracies in this thread, I won’t dignify it with a rebuttal. Jim Patrick

I agree.

So there are inaccuracies in the thread?

You disagree that all T's look alike?

You disagree that the only way to tell the year is by motor number?

You disagree that an early number make the car rarer and more valuable ?

Numbers are important to the value of your investment. If you are concerned about the value at sale of you Model T, a change in the year produced - based on vehicle number on the motor block, can be changed to a lower production, making the value of the car increase.

Allow me to introduce you to a simple and true method to introduce a way to increase the value by lowering the model year.

George John.

I saw that you posted the above posting on another thread. So outlandish are your claims, Steve Jelf seems to think you are joking. Are you? I honestly hope so. It is inconceivable to me that you actually believe that you can change the vintage year of a Model T and its’ value by changing the numbers to an earlier or more valuable year, or that you would actually do it. All Model T’s are not identical. Unlike your claim, each year has features that distinguish one year from another and earlier years are not necessarily more valuable. If you were to alter a Model T with the intention of selling it to some poor buyer who had no knowledge of Model T’s with the intent defrauding him and making a profit from his lack of knowledge, that is very dishonest and you could get sued and you would lose. I and all the members here reading this do not like to deal with dishonest sellers and we will remember you and never buy anything from you. A joke is okay and fun as long as it does no harm or does not mislead members that are new to the hobby who depend on the MTFCA Forum for accurate information. If it is a joke, I took the bait. HA HA HA HA, but, in the future, please save the jokes for other venues. Jim Patrick

Growing up, one of our companions always felt compelled to explain any joke that got told, prefacing his remarks, "See, that was funny, because . . ."

It's better to laugh than to cry !!

All original barn find 1910 Model A Ford coupe!! Completely restored with Camaro front end, 9" rear end, 383 stroker, killer sound, top filled and chopped 10", deep cherry metalflake pearl, 18X20 rear rims in gold metalflake, dragster spoked fronts, all LED lighting, ostrich hide power bucket seats, heated tilt steering wheel, power folding top, PS, PB, auto/OD, cold air, and much much more!

George, admit it...this bit of trolling is far superior than the old tired "buzz box" routine, isn't it?

You've hit on a real winner here...probably as far off of the intent of this Forum as one could drag it, but then again, I and others are taking the bait, and that's pretty much the point, right?

Others may view it as the height of hilarity, but given that not once in years of reading your missives can I ever recall learning anything useful, I conclude that this is mischief bordering on malevolence for the uninitiated.

Carry on.

https://imgflip.com/i/58vhbf

Here’s a “field find “ Model ? No kidding and the serial no. Is there Somewhere————-

And we know what it is! Don’t you?

"I saw that you posted the above posting on another thread. So outlandish are your claims, Steve Jelf seems to think you are joking. Are you? I honestly hope so. It is inconceivable to me that you actually believe that you can change the vintage year of a Model T and its’ value by changing the numbers to an earlier or more valuable year, or that you would actually do it"

Rather than go on another rant that may confuse those new to the Model T, and years of production - I will refer to a 1921 article ( June 1921, Ford Owner and Dealer) on the Model T, telling old from new, and the importance of numbers

High lights from the 1921 article when buying or selling a model T.
1) Use the list attached (see article) to verify the statements of the seller as to when the vehicle was "really built."
2)Don't Take the sellers word as accurate.
3)With a used Ford do not rely on the date cast on the block...the block may have been replaced.
4)If there is suspicion that the numbers have been altered, look up the jail record of the seller.
5) You need to read the article.

Remember the article was from 1921, with a list of production number from 1908 to 1921.

Even in 1921 the author realized to the general public all Model Ts looked alike. Why else would this information be printed in a ford publication for the general public interested in purchasing a Model T?


https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ca ... frontcover

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Well there are too many posts to this thread for my attention span to read, but seeing how " easy" it is to turn a 1920 into to say, a 1911, WITHOUT ALL THE BRASS, well, I guess I'd like to see it!! Ha ha.

A REAL 1913, and a REAL 1920 just for reference!!

"High lights from the 1921 article when buying or selling a model T."

A little irony... back in '21, Ford was advising used car customers on how to avoid being sold an older car tarted up to appear to be a newer model of higher value. Today, the discussion revolves around how to be sure the used car in question is actually as old as represented, and not some newer model tarted up to look like an older, more valuable one. As for the 1910 red touring car that started this discussion, in my opinion it was fairly represented and fairly priced. It has evidently had extensive work done on it in recent years, but it is not a car of recent vintage. It was not represented to be an all factory-original 1910 Ford. If you are prepared to spend what it costs to own a genuine factory original, century old car that is correct in all details, make sure you know what you are looking for and what those details consist of. Beware of ANY car that is offered at well below market price. It could be a bargain, but it most probably isn't. It might not even belong to the seller.

I read the article from 1921 and quite frankly I didn’t interpret that all Model T’s are alike and the comment that even the author realized the general public that all Model T’s are alike is not exactly what he was saying. If there was any thing at all that could be understood that they were all alike it was when the original author was making reference from the the first T’s from 09 - 14 or 15 and the engines being exchanged and numbers changed.

It was ‘assumed ‘ that’s what he was saying that and was put on the post that’s what it was.

It comes down to interpretation and to me it’s NOT saying they ALL LOOK ALIKE. If someone thinks a 09-10 T looks like my 1919 roadster, 21 Touring or 24 Coupe something’s not right. At least I would tell them.

Ha ha John, that's exactly why I posted the pics of my two cars. Well, I really don't own the '20 anymore, altho I wish I still did!

The most valuable and the most dear to your heart of any year you can own is when you have a smile from ear to ear when admiring it in your garage and driving it down the boulevard. We all have a preference of year and model that we love and enjoy in whatever color, so who is to say which one of us is right. As long as it makes you happy where you never have to wash all that rust, or you have a million watt perimeter fence around that Stinosky trailer queen when you take it to the ice cream parlor on Sunday, or you have an average driver that you call by an endearing name, that is what makes it all worth it. Enjoy whatever year and model that makes you happy. Frank

Steve, heard so many times when I displayed old gas engines (flywheel engines). Thank you for coming sir!
Truthfully, an N of any year. Since a boy, an old book sold me. I missed a basket case a few years ago.
Different.

By now I am close to being banned.

So in these final moments allow me to show that not all years of the T can be identified by the radiator - 1908 to 1916 Brass, and 1916 to 1927 Black or body colour.

A few years back on the forum this:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1284520641

This one is a 1914 brass radiator.

I hope not.

…Why would you be banned. Were you warned? Right or wrong, everyone is entitled to his opinion. This forum is comprised of many members, all of whom have their opinions and beliefs. I have owned my Model T for 52 years and have been a member of the MTFCA and participated on the forum since 2000 and God knows, I have been wrong and set right many many times by members who knew a lot more than me. I am always grateful to be corrected so I will not, in the future, continue to pass on erroneous information. I may not agree with you, or may have misunderstood your post, which happens sometimes, but you are a fellow Model T lover and that makes you a good man in my eyes. Stick around. Jim Patrick

Lady in back of dolled-up T pic: "Upset? I should say so! The porch is sagging, I'm down to four pair of shoes, the carpets are threadbare, and Ashley won't stop spending money on this darned car! He really should be banned!

I’d like to see how my 1926 coupe could be turned into a brass era 1910. LOL! Jim Patrick

Masking tape, a can of Krylon Gold, and Viola!

Oh! And don’t forget the stamped numbers. That is what would confirm it to be a 1910.

Been Here Before wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:01 pm

So there are inaccuracies in the thread?

You disagree that all T's look alike?

You disagree that the only way to tell the year is by motor number?

You disagree that an early number make the car rarer and more valuable ?

Numbers are important to the value of your investment. If you are concerned about the value at sale of you Model T, a change in the year produced - based on vehicle number on the motor block, can be changed to a lower production, making the value of the car increase.

Allow me to introduce you to a simple and true method to introduce a way to increase the value by lowering the model year.
Z0J420fo5oystencil.JPG

Yes, yes, yes no, and no.

Re: What year Ford do you want?

1914 (Runabout...although the thread didn't ask for what model...and they sort of look like this!)

I’d like a ‘20 coupe or ‘17-‘18 touring please, let’s bust out those stamps and make some!

I've got as set of stamps around here somewhere. Now if I can find a '72 Pinto on ebay, I'll snag it and put a 1909 motor number on it. It's already a basic, 4 cylinder Ford ... just needs a little back dating and an Earl Scheib paint job in gloss black.

Pat, for 1909 it has to be red.

Any color as long as it's black!

I have to say I want a '23 because I got the pre-production '23 Ford in Red WITH heated Steering Wheel(thanks to Jay)!!!

My 2nd choice is this old 1914:

I have never cared for those pointy V type radiator shell accessories. The square, boxy radiator of the Model T is a big part of its’ charm. Jim Patrick

True, but I think the idea is to obtain more radiator cooling capacity without increasing the car's frontal area.

I think it is more for looks. I don’t think two angled openings that only take in air from the front and two sides, would take in anymore air through the actual radiator opening than leaving the radiator completely open, free to take in air from 360 degrees. Like a hood scoop and rear spoiler on a Volks Wagon bug, It just seems so out of place on a T trying to make it something it’s not. Jim Patrick

I've been under the impression that the radiator core was V-shaped, much like 2 regular radiators mounted at an angle. That would allow about 1 /12 to 1 3/4 times the tubes and fins as would a flat radiator.

Talk About Thread Drift

What serial number should I stamp into my 23 touring engine so that I can call it a 1909. Maybe I can sell it and make enough money to buy a real 1909.

Art Mirtes

Engine number 220 is acknowledged to be the earliest existing 1909 Model T. You can’t go wrong by using engine number 221. Being second, should make it pretty valuable. Jim Patrick

#220

1963 Galaxy XL fastback with Equa-Lock, a 4-speed, and of course the 427,

I loved those 63 1/2 Galaxy fastbacks... and red 62 Impala sport coupes with the 406 badges... OMG, bucket seats and a console! 6 tail lights!!! They finally figured out that no one wore hats anymore, and young people didn't care about headroom.

‘66 Ford GT40. Even now, it looks like a car from the distant future. Jim Patrick

The GT 40 shape has been much copied. I liked the early AMX pony cars, but never quite got the styling of the later ones. Just today, I saw a picture of about a '71 Lamborhini that looked a whole lot like the later series AMX cars.

The Model T with engine # 131 is in existence and restored.

I did several searches and was unable to confirm the existence of a Model T #131 which would make it the oldest in existence. Please provide more information of your claim in the form of a picture of the T and an article about the #131 Model T. Jim Patrick

Wouldn’t that be a 2 lever and 2 pedal T?

John. Yes. #220 is a two lever, two pedal T so, if there is a #131, it too, would be a two lever two pedal T. Jim Patrick

Museum of the Horseless Carriage at The Gilmore

Here in the steam barn we are fortunate to have a very rare 1909 Ford Model T Touring car. This is the oldest existing Ford Model T (#131) built in December of 1908. The first 2500 Ford Model T’s utilized two-lever / two-pedal controls and a water pump enclosed in the engine block.
1909 Ford Model T - The Legendary #220. This is one of the earliest surviving Ford Model T's in the world today. Built in December, 908 (prior to Ford's introduction of the assembly line) at Ford's Piquette Avenue factory in Detroit, he early history of #220 is today unknown. As we are told, y 1951, d Hausgen of St. Louis had acquired the car through his uncle from a dealership in Illinois. By that time the rear portion of the original Touring body had been transformed into a Runabout, ith a gas tank and toolbox at the rear. In 1966, ausgen sold #220 to collector Ben Snider of Riverside, alifornia. Ben located a correct 1909 rear body and seat for the car and it was restored to show condition by Al Vivian, former employee of Bill Harrah. It was a meticulous, rame-off restoration of every component. On April 7, 970, en Snider sold #220 to Bill Harrah and it became part of the famous Harrah's Automobile Collection in Reno/Sparks, evada. It remained part of the collection until Harrah's passing in 1984. Then #220 was sold by Harrah's to Kim Dobbins of California who refreshed areas of the restoration and mechanicals, riving it on occasion



Serial no. 2 (see text)
177ci Flathead Inline 4-Cylinder Engine
Single Carburetor, 22bhp at 1,600rpm
2-Speed Planetary Manual Transmission
Transverse Leaf Springs and Solid Axles Front and Rear
2-Wheel Drum Brakes

*Believed to be the earliest Model T surviving
*Discovered in upper Michigan by Donald Hess in 1958
*Extensively restored between 1995 and 2001
*Hershey 1st Prize Junior Award in 2001

Most of the T folks have heard of this one but not sure about the one that’s supposed be earlier the #131. Maybe there are photos of it.

The last pic is number 2, which has been debated ad nauseam on this forum

Yes and I was referring to #131 and a photo.

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