Fronty water manifold

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Kevin Pharis
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Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:23 pm

I have been pondering for years a way to circulate extra water to cool the rear cylinders in my speedster engine. I always imagined something similar to a Fronty water manifold fed by a water hose tapped off of the standard water inlet casting. The more I think about it... the more I consider making an authentic Fronty water manifold to do the job.

This is the design I have roughed in, but would like a few extra pics and dimensions from a few originals before I decide to do anything with it. I would prefer to have this cast in aluminum via 3D printed sand rather than make a pattern.

Many of these water manifolds are straight over the top of the mounting holes, but I saw one on the Speedway website that has a kick up that would provide additional mag and water pump clearance, allow bolts to be installed, and also not obstruct the valve cover. I chose to start with this version as it seemed to make more sense.

Either style, I would like flange dimensions, tube diameters, and inlet tube angle dimensions if possible...
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:21 am

After loosing track of which engine on the Speedway website that had the offset water manifold, I finally found it again...
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Dan McEachern » Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:32 pm

Kevin- I'll get one to you. Dan


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:25 pm

Awesome! Do you know if it’s an original...? There had to have been reproductions at some point...?

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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Gene_French » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:09 pm

Kevin:
i have looked into using an early Dodge Brothers water pump on an overhead project ... they are cast iron with an angle bracket that makes mounting easy ...they are shaft driven , with a thru shaft for additional drives ( distributor drive in the case of my Dodge Brothers ) ...sorry i don't have a picture handy ...always an optimist Gene French

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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Henry K. Lee » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:38 pm

Similar in design as yours Kevin. Dick McKee years back had one that was like a block off plate but had the water porting like yours and the outlet like yours going to the water pump. Wish I had a picture, a very good design.

Hank


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:50 pm

Thanks for the tip on the possible Dodge pump.

I currently run a thermostatically controlled inline electric water pump that mounts in the lower hose. It’s a slick (albeit expensive) installation that pumps a ton of water... at any engine speed! The current plan is to restrict the stock water inlet, and install a T in the lower hose to supply water to the Fronty manifold on the other side. The hope is to circulate some water to the rear cylinder area without changing the radiator, side drive, etc...

I currently use a Datsun oil pump in place of the genny, but am hoping to replace the belt driven alternator with a gear driven version with the Datsun pump mounted to the rear. This will be phase 46 of the Akron-Hed install...🙄


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:00 pm

Henry K. Lee wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:38 pm
Similar in design as yours Kevin. Dick McKee years back had one that was like a block off plate but had the water porting like yours and the outlet like yours going to the water pump. Wish I had a picture, a very good design.

Hank

I pondered sumpin similar to this in revision 12, prior to my decision to lean toward a more correct Fronty version. Got carried away with fins and porting... then questioned the ability of the 4 manifold bolts to securely seal the lower ports...


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Gene_French » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:09 pm

Kevin :
was digging around thru my parts and found this Dodge Brothers water pump ... this is the style i am looking at to use on the Mcmillon head i purchased last year ... a simple pump that rotates clockwise as viewed from the front ... the shaft is 5/8" diameter and driven at crankshaft speed for the DB engine ... the mount is 2 bolt thru the angle plate cast in pump base ... these work well on the DB engines ... i have had 7 DB cars and all ran very well and never had problems with running hot even in our sometime 3 digit temps. ... the impeller is cast bronze , the pump body is thick enough to re-tap the bolt holes for the inlet to position as needed ... hope this helps ...always an optimist ...Gene French
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:09 pm

Thanks to all that contributed pictures and details of the many variations of Fronty (or similar) water manifolds. And a BIG THANKS to Dan, who sent over an original!

It seems that no 2 are the same! If you look close enough, the main differences are in the various fillet radii, and a few have rotated mounting flanges on the outer ports, and the 1 at Speedway with the elevated manifold.

After many revisions, I have opted to go with the typical water manifold design. The main concern was trapping an air pocket in the offset manifold, and needing to put a bleed port in the top. Other concerns were lining up with a Fronty pump, should anyone ever try to use one for the designed application. I have had several folks express interest, and so have requested a quote for a small quantity of castings. These will be cast via 3D printed sand molds, and so the castings will have excellent accuracy. I will finish machine the castings, and supply dimensions for drilling the blocks for mounting studs. I may even have some gaskets cut if I can pull in a favor...
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:12 pm

I have contacted all who have inquired about receiving one of these water manifolds. If you would like to add your name to the list, speak up now!


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Mike Penserini » Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:23 pm

Hi Kevin, I'm late for the party. I'd like a water manifold, please add my name on the list. Thank you. Mike


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:23 pm

Sure thing Mike👍

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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by David Greenlees » Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:30 pm

Kevin, I would like one as well, check the email I sent you. Thanks


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:42 pm

Working on finalizing the order details with the foundry today and should have castings on order by tomorrow👍


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Ralph F » Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:45 pm

Kevin,
I would also like to be put on the list for a manifold
Ralph


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:10 pm

Currently I should have an extra casting, as pouring in pairs required me to round up the quantity

Email sent


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Dan McEachern » Mon Aug 22, 2022 7:28 pm

Shamelessly piggybacking on Kevin's water rail post, I still have a small stock of bronze Fronty water pump impeller castings if anyone needs one.


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:51 pm

The sand is being printed, and the foundry is lined up to pour. Shouldn’t be too much longer now…


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Thu Oct 13, 2022 12:45 am

Gettin closer👍
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:57 pm

The foundry has shipped my order! Time to start planning the machining fixture…


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:52 pm

Lookin good!
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:48 pm

That is REALLY nice

Do you mind sharing the name of the foundry?
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Oct 26, 2022 9:10 pm

^^^^^^^
That’s a good question Scott! The sand printer sends the molds to a foundry somewhere in Indiana… this same foundry has poured several other printed sand molds for me, and all have been fantastic quality materials and mold assembly. Please note that they charge accordingly for this attention to detail as well😉


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Oct 26, 2022 9:22 pm

Oh, I have no doubt that they charge!

I spent a stint as a Supplier Quality Engineer in Aerospace and worked with a Foundry in New England and in Canada, casting very complicated avionics chassis. They were investment castings; quite the operation, and the products were as expensive as can be. A different process than yours, but I am acquainted with both, and there are fewer and fewer outfits doing this work...thus my question.
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Thu Oct 27, 2022 12:07 am

Before engaging with this 3D sand printing outfit… I had given up on having parts cast! Too many excuses! I was waiting 8-12 months for parts… and they were ugly when I finally got em! Nothin like payin full price for a casting that the foundry forgot to put the core in! I picked up a batch of Buffalo wheel centers recently… only took em 16 months! Good thing I got my order in early🙄

For small batches, this is the only way to go! You have to be savvy with modeling software… but the parts are right the first time, with no excuses!😁


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri Oct 28, 2022 8:44 pm

I hope to have all the castings machined tonite! If you are on my list, expect an email this weekend👍
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by AndyClary » Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:22 am

Looks good Kevin. Did they send you a picture of the core?


Andy


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Oct 29, 2022 10:44 am

Nope… A simple “proof of life” pic is all I ever get


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sun Oct 30, 2022 6:50 pm

Here are the bolt hole locations
Attachments
Fronty Water Manifold.pdf
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by babychadwick » Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:37 am

Care to share the foundry? What format do/can they work off of? I've had some ideas . . .
"Those who fail to plan, plan to fail"


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Tue Nov 01, 2022 11:41 pm

Have had a few inquiries from folks who “missed the boat” on this batch of water manifolds. I’m looking into another batch of parts, but looks like 6 pieces might be the magic number to make the numbers work out for the same price as the first batch. We’re half way there… anyone else…?


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by T4Tom » Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:16 pm

Kevin, I would like 2. I PM'd you a few backs if you recall.


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:42 am

Absolutely Tom, I will keep in touch as the numbers come together. Hope to have answers this week👍


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Tim D » Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:14 am

We have a very nice alum. foundry here in WI. Called Elkcast in Elkhorn WI If any one needs the name of one.


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:59 pm

The 2nd batch of castings was delivered today, and I hope to have the machine work finished this weekend. There is 1 extra if someone needs it…


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Tparts » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:47 pm

I would like to buy the extra one!
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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:42 pm

The 2nd batch of water manifolds is machined, packed, and ready to ship! Emails have been sent to those on the list


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by T4Tom » Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:13 pm

My new Fronty manifolds arrived.

Kevin did an excellent job. They look fantastic and will look even better on some engines.

Thanks to Kevin for making these parts available.

Tom
Pharis Fronty manifolds
Pharis Fronty manifolds


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Re: Fronty water manifold

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sun Apr 02, 2023 2:09 pm

Finally getting to install my Fronty water manifold! I made a drill jig out of 5/8” thick aluminum bar, clamped it to the block, and ran a drill bit thru to the water jacket. Turns out the iron is pretty tough! A few of my tapped holes look like they were drilled by hand, the rest look pretty good. My aluminum drill jig was wearing as I struggled to drill thru the hard spots… I suggest using a steel jig or better yet a mill!
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