MTFCA Forum

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If I can add to the thread. Can they be straightened & tightened by repining.

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Tightening loose cages: I've seen recommendations for and against. Fortunately I've always been able to find bearings that weren't loose. If I couldn't I'd look at past discussions and check the names. I take some people's Model T advice as golden. Others, not so much.

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:34 pm

LOL of course but “it depends on what the definition of is is”

The greatest presidential quote of all time!!!

I do not know of any other way than to measure the individual rollers at each end with a micrometer.

Measure at each end of the roller, they can have a taper from wear.

I have 5 Hyatt bearings from my spare rear end and pinion. I can mic them but I don't know what tolerances I should compare to. How small is considered usable?

Mark Nunn wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:29 pm

I have 5 Hyatt bearings from my spare rear end and pinion. I can mic them but I don't know what tolerances I should compare to. How small is considered usable?

The std is .500 for axle & .562 for Drive shaft.
Supplies sleeves vary in thickness, so mating a thick sleeve with a more worn roller is great. I consider .498 or larger to be good with a 1.062 axle. That would be a tight cage & no splintering on the roller surface.
D.S. Thrusts on one side. Turn the spool accordingly & you are std. Any roller wear can be tightened in the gear mesh set up. Same deal, .560 is great for used.

I have been throwing out .005 or more wear. Undersize rollers must be solid, splinter free, but a little rust pitting is ok.

I have mic'd dozens and largest I've recorded was .499. With the new hardened sleeves, I've realized that near new - .497 - .499 rollers fit too tight. With a good used sleeve, one can run the larger sized rollers. One needs to optimize bearing to sleeve for best combination.

I also mic. both ends of the rollers.

I’m going to be the devils advocate here. I’m a tool and die machinist just to throw that out there. Why do folks worry about these rollers being .005” small when there’s no way in hades that an entire rear axle housing runs within .010”. You may go to great lengths to straighten a housing in a lathe but the moment you hit a pothole or two, there’s no way housings stay straight. They bend and contort.
That being said, why does everyone treat these bearings like you’re setting connecting rod clearances?
Respectfully submitted, please explain what I’m overlooking.
Sorry for thread drift, I thought this was a good place to mention my thoughts about this.

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I am of the opinion, that many people try and set up the gear mesh too tight for how the rear end is designed. Even with good roller bearings and sleeves, there is still a lot of play for trying to get tight fits. The Model A is .015-.018 for ring gear to pinion.

That being said, why does everyone treat these bearings like you’re setting connecting rod clearances?

Good point.

My approach is to find a bearing that is as close as possible to standard (they never are so I take the best).
Locate the best sleeve (most of which are worn). Using NEW sleeves is possible but I have had issues with them not being properly hardened! (i.e. it should NOT be possible to scratch the inside of the sleeve with a slip of a screw driver..)
Calculate what shim is needed to close up the sleeve to get overall clearance as close to 'standard' as possible. Get the closest shim stock to that, make a shim to wrap around the outside of the sleeves. Install all carefully.

End result is a (least) worn Hyatt/sleeve with 'standard' clearance.

Remember when calculating the shim needed to HALVE the gap you are trying to close up to, as the shim will go on both sides of the sleeve it's thickness is effectively doubled when installed. (e.g. if the gap is 5 thou, use 2.5 thou shim).

That's how I do it - others may vary in their approach but "if it works, well, then it works".

My approach is to wrap the shim around the sleeve, put a hose clamp over that and tighten to reduce the size, slide in the housing, mowing the hose clamp as needed.

It isn't easy and sometimes takes a couple of attempts (and replacement shim!) but it works.

Next slide the bearing in and check the clearance. I keep in mind that 'perfect' is not always necessary and does not actually offer significant benefit over 'reasonable' - in this situation.

Is there any interest in what Hyatt Product Engineering recommends for the rear wheel bearings. There are still some engineers around including the chief engineer at the time Hyatt discontinued manufacturing wound roller bearings.

Art Mirtes

Art, from my end of the peanut gallery ANY info from Hyatt would be very interesting.
Hyatt sold bearings to many mfgr's of other things than cars and are still being used and even worked sometimes.
Sorry, Off Topic: IH, TC and A-C come to mind.

Adrian,
I have thought about shimming the bearing sleeves, but stumbled on what to use. Brass seems to be to soft (that's what my shim stock is) What material do you find works best for shims? How do you make a hole for greasing the bearing or make sure it lines up? Large hole?
I have found the biggest issue with bearing failure is not greasing the bearings after they are installed. I very rarely see anyone grease them on a tour & have had people ask why I do? The lube chart indicates every 200 mile if I remember correctly. I have had issues with the soft sleeves also they where so soft that they did no damage to the Hyatt's. I don't like the solid rollers they sell but have had good success with them on the inside. I have also had sleeves so small that I had to go threw all my Hyatt's to find some with enough wear to fit???? I have picked up some sleeves that are black and have found them to be thicker than some of the others and harder. I picked up a pair of used ones that have worn very well and will get used again some day.
Craig.

Hi Graig,
Our shim stock from the engineering supplies is a tensile steel, available in various thicknesses. I keep a selection of sizes on hand.
As to the oiling holes. I punch a larger hole through the stock where the sleeve hole is before installing it - that allows a bit of movement in the shim, although once installed it rarely moves much. It does take a bit of fiddling to install the shim, but it can be done per my description.

Yes, reusing old ones is a better (IMHO) idea than using the soft new ones.

I don't like the solid rollers either, but you are correct in that they seem to be OK for the inner, probably because there is less flex at the inner end.

Cheers
Adrian

Hi Adrian, I will look online for Tensile steel shim stock. I still have one more rear end to build and maybe another spare just incase if there is enough good parts left over. You can never have to many ready to install parts can you?
Craig.

Mark, setting the crown wheel to pinion gear mesh by the gap between them ignores the need to set the correct rolling fit on each tooth. They are best meshed on rolling fit rarher than backlash. With that fit, the backlash looks after itself

I know that is not what the book says.

Allan from down under.

Adrian - we have hardened sleeves available here in the States - can you not access those ?

I actually source most of my parts direct from US dealers. The local NZ dealer also buys his stock from the same sources as well (it costs more to buy local, but they have stock on hand when you need it quickly). I do not recall which dealer the soft sleeves came from (they were bought a while ago).
I note US based folk have had the same problems. Bad batch maybe?

Darren J Wallace wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:30 pm

I’m going to be the devils advocate here. I’m a tool and die machinist just to throw that out there. Why do folks worry about these rollers being .005” small when there’s no way in hades that an entire rear axle housing runs within .010”. You may go to great lengths to straighten a housing in a lathe but the moment you hit a pothole or two, there’s no way housings stay straight. They bend and contort.
That being said, why does everyone treat these bearings like you’re setting connecting rod clearances?
Respectfully submitted, please explain what I’m overlooking.
Sorry for thread drift, I thought this was a good place to mention my thoughts about this.

I agree with the points you make Darren. I believe however, that taper is at least as important, if not more so, than diameter. And, once you get more than .005 undersize, you also tend to pick up some taper as well. My belief is that, due to the differing circumference at each end of a tapered roller, the roller will tend to skew within the housing. The tendancy to skew then leads to a twist in the roller cage and also causes rubbing, instead of rolling, between the rollers and the axle shaft. From there, wear accelerates rapidly.

Allan wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:02 am

Mark, setting the crown wheel to pinion gear mesh by the gap between them ignores the need to set the correct rolling fit on each tooth. They are best meshed on rolling fit rarher than backlash. With that fit, the backlash looks after itself

I know that is not what the book says.

Allan from down under.

Allan,

Thank for stating this! You are 100% correct!