No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

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Steve Jelf
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No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:06 pm

For years my 1915 was an easy start. Even at 32º F it started in four or five pulls, and at higher temperatures a cold start usually took no more than three. Warmed up, of course, it was usually one pull or a free start. No more. For the last year or so, cold starting has often taken a lot of pulling, sometimes needing a rear wheel jacked up. It has still been an easy start warmed up, but miserable cold.

I've tried everything I could think of, and a slew of suggestions from the forum, with no major improvement. By now I don't even remember all the things I've tried.

The other day I thought,"Maybe it's sucking air around the loose throttle shaft." So I removed the throttle, drilled the hole to ¹⁷⁄₆₄", reamed it to ⁹⁄₃₂", pressed in a piece of brass tubing, reamed that to ¼", and reinstalled the throttle. It's certainly no longer floppy-loose. In fact, it's even a little snug. I installed the NH on the car, choked four times, turned on the ignition, and gave it twenty pulls without even a cough.

The old man is not a happy camper. I'm sure this eventually will be solved, but until then it's an exercise in frustration and disgust.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:05 am

I'm sure you have tried all the wiring, coil, spark, fuel flow etc etc test & checks. But have you tried a different carburetor?
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:30 am

...have you tried a different carburetor?

Two NH, one G.

I figure this has to be fuel, because ignition would be the same warmed up or not. Am I barking up the wrong tree?
On the sucking-air theory, I even reinstalled the intake manifold with new sealant. Twice.
:(
Last edited by Steve Jelf on Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:03 am

I just cannot think of anything likely to help. I have read your many threads on the subject, trials and efforts and? I feel your frustration, just cannot really think of anything really good to suggest.

The only thing that keeps coming to my mind, and I am sure you have tried enough differences to know better? But most of the model Ts I have had with typical Ford carburetors on them (most Ts I have had had a Holley NH on it!), to start cold (or in a few cases even when warm?), I needed to open the fuel mixture one quarter to one half turn. However, a couple cars, and a couple different carburetors, for whatever silly reason they had, I needed to open the fuel mixture a full turn to a turn and a half in order for it to want to start! Every car, every carburetor, seems to be a bit different. I cannot think of anything that you haven't changed twice already that would make the car otherwise be this way. But one of my cars was that way, with three different carburetors that worked normally on other cars! But THAT car I had to open it about a turn and a half! Made no sense to me.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Dan Hatch » Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:30 am

Compression test? Valve job?


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by bobt » Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:31 am

Tune your coils with a ECCT and clean the commutator. I have the bad habit of getting fixated on the solution " It HAS to be fuel related"


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by rickd » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:43 am

Steve, I've been working on some Model A cars lately and to borrow a quote from one of the restoration manuals, "90% of carburetor problems are electrical." Hope you get it sorted out.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:53 am

Comp test readings please. Dry and wet done cold. Definite hard starting symptom. Process of elimination.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:47 am

Is that weak magneto I smell? If you haven't already, try using a fresh, hot 12 volt battery for an ignition battery.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Quickm007 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:53 am

rickd wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:43 am
Steve, I've been working on some Model A cars lately and to borrow a quote from one of the restoration manuals, "90% of carburetor problems are electrical." Hope you get it sorted out.

Can be more than agree, One of my T have Timer issue... Take several day to fix it... I used bad carb and always start but the timing could be tricky and frustrated. Good luck Jeff, keep us posted for any development, we heard your pain.
Last edited by Quickm007 on Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by John kuehn » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:55 am

Steve
I think you’ve mentioned in earlier posts about a hot shot battery set up. Does your 15 have one. Wasn’t that an alternative after several years owners would use one in their magneto only cars?
Could your issue be a weaker mag over the years since you built up your 15 ?

Model T’s are cantankerous after they get some age on them after a rebuild.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:03 am

A carburetor can be in bad shape, but the engine should start anyway with choking. It won't run right with a bad carburetor, but if you can choke it to the point of getting gas to run out, the engine should start. Low compression can complicate starting, especially in cold weather, but in my long experience driving junk, an engine can have very low compression (with good valves and ignition) and use a good deal of oil and still start easily in anything but very cold weather. My car will start easily on magneto out on the road. However, it can be a chore to start on magneto by hand after sitting overnight. Around here, it's typically 85 degrees in the barn at 5 AM this time of year, so cold is hardly an issue. I have a good free neutral and use 10W30 synthetic oil. The engine does not use oil and it runs well on all 4 cylinders. It starts easily under these conditions on the battery, which is a 6 volt. I conclude that the magneto is marginally weak, although it shows good output at anything over idle, and the engine runs much better on magneto than it does on battery. I haven't tried jacking up a rear wheel to start the car on magneto first thing in the morning, but my guess is it would start on magneto first thing in the morning if I did so.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Chris Instness » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:44 am

I agree with Bob. Have your coils tuned.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by ironhorse » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:00 am

I am probably wrong (as I usually am) but have you checked the timing rod to make sure it didn't get bent or the pivot holes maybe worn a little (elongated)?
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by JTT3 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:15 am

…….. ……… ………
Last edited by JTT3 on Thu Sep 01, 2022 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:18 am

The coils were restored by Ron the Coil Man eleven years ago. He did a check-up/adjustment last month. I'm 99⁴⁴⁄₁₀₀% sure the problem is not coils.

Due to a weakened magneto, I start on BAT. The magneto is not the problem.

The juice for the coils is from a 12 volt mower battery. It buzzes the coils, but I'll put a charger on it to be sure it's all the way up.

At this point I'm ready to start rechecking things I've checked before (compression, vacuum, timing, etc.), but I'm pretty sure the problem is something I haven't found yet.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:38 am

Several things I can think of. First suspect would be the fuel system. If the car has been parked for a long time, the gas might be bad. Or there might be condensation in the gas tank which goes to the bottom drawing water into the carburetor. Or rust particles into the sediment bowl. If you have another T which starts easily, you might try swapping carburetors. If the problem transfers to the other car, and this one starts as easily as the other one, then you know the problem is in the carburetor.
Other tests would be compression, spark plug firing and timing.
Anyway, Steve, I know you can find it and it will be a very simple and easy fix.
Norm


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by RalphS in NE Oregon » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:40 am

Will it start if you give it a shot of starter fluid? If so will it keep running or quit quickly?
Will it start if you tow it?

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by MKossor » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:28 pm

The coils were restored by Ron the Coil Man eleven years ago. He did a check-up/adjustment last month. I'm 99⁴⁴⁄₁₀₀% sure the problem is not coils.
I strongly recommend you stick to the process of elimination rather than method of assumptions to find and fix your difficult starting problem.

First, the method used for coil adjustment (equal and consistent firing Time as opposed to equal average coil current ) typically results in a marked improvement engine performance, including easier starting on Battery AND Magneto.

Second, Model T coil point adjustment is much more sensitive than most folks realize. A gentile bump during shipment, handling or push during installation can significantly change the dwell time to fire spark and degrade engine performance.

Take the time to check your coils for equal and consistent firing Time to fire spark using an ECCT. I think it will be well worth the effort! Looking forward to learning what you find.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Been Here Before » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:32 pm

Steve Jelf

I am currently reworking a Mall 2MG chain Saw with magneto ignition that is related to a HD Hummer.

It worked fine and then no spark. Thought it was a replaced coil. Every thing checked out fine. Checked timing, gaps, and sparking plug.

Discovered spark was weak, and set plug gap closer. In dark spark can see. I still have no start even with use of ether, and gasoline mix in cylinder. To date no put-put. My guess is the air is bad or the fuel us not combustible.

Maybe with climate change, the air is not pure enough to support combustion of the internal combustion engine? ;)


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:38 pm

I had a hard starting problem on my 14, but I developed a ritual that always seems to work at first start after sitting a spell. I just hope my neighbors don’t mind me honking the bulb horn three times, crowing like a rooster on one leg while I flap my arms, along with a final whoop! whoop! whoop! borrowed from Curly of the three stooges. It starts 1/4 crank after that.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by CudaMan » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:42 pm

Do you have some spark plugs with priming cups? Using the priming cups on my 1912 Flanders gets the engine started in 2-3 pulls every time. No need for the engine to suck the mixture up from the carb into the cylinders. :)
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Rich Eagle » Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:55 pm

These things can be maddening can't they? I just posted my conclusion on my "Stranded" thread that my motorcycle battery lost some power when it got real hot. Coils still buzzed but it would not fire. Charging your mower battery might be the answer.
I hope you find a solution. It's probably something simple.
Rich
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:00 pm

With the magneto out of the way as a possible culprit, and the coils recently serviced, and the carburetor gone over, I'd turn my attention to the timer and the MOWER BATTERY and the ignition switch. My experience with MOWER BATTERIES is that they are very unreliable, and very short-lived. A roller timer may need a shot of Marvel Mystery Oil. A New Day style timer may have a worn or sticky brush, or oil may haven gotten into the timer case and fouled the contacts. If you have a good, clean set of jumper cables, it would be worthwhile to connect the battery leads on the T to a known good battery with clean terminals in another vehicle that is running, then try to start the T as usual. If you try this, it would be best to disconnect the mower battery during the procedure.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Mopar_man » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:08 pm

I would check the timing. Every time the pin that turns the crank shaft goes just past the 3:00 position (like 3:15) a coil should spark.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by John kuehn » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:12 pm

Maybe you could use a standard std 6 volt battery from your other T and use it to jump off your 15. I dont know how you’ve got your 15 wired for the hot shot but it might be worth a try. And if it started that would tell you it’s a voltage issue. Like R eagle mentioned it’s probably something simple. Could be the voltage.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:48 pm

I was having same issue with a small 6 volt battery, and I hooked up a freshly charged 12 volt car battery, and easy starting was restored. My smaller battery was registering fully charged but it wasn’t the same as the 12 volt.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by George Mills » Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:31 pm

Just TOL (thinking out loud) over my history with my own ‘15…

One time I had to pull the exhaust to get the hogsheads off. On buttoning up, nothing worked and I’m pretty thorough…fuel, compression, spark…and the derivatives. On doing the starting fluid spray trick at the manifold…it only seemed to want to catch more but not really get it started.

On a why not and nowhere else to go…I pulled the intake, changed the copper rings and made sure I left them deform but not necessarily’crimp’

1/4 pull…bada bing…been that way since ‘14…

I dunno why…but that’s what it apparently wanted!

Ps…Also for the first 20 years prior to just prior to that I had only a 6.3 volt lantern battery as my ignition source! Changed it out once a year in April, never had issue on the ‘15

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Ed Fuller » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:29 pm

Try a new battery.

A coil will “buzz” with less than 6 volts DC.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Russ T Fender » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:00 pm

For what it's worth, my '14 touring sat for a year and when I tried to get it going again I got no where. Coils buzzed, gas was freely flowing to the carburetor but crank as I might it would not start. In desperation I even tried to tow it but again got no where. I have a 12 volt wet cell battery in the car and since the coils were buzzing noisily I just assumed it was fine. Not so! A quick charge on the battery and the car started right up on the first pull. Just because the coils are buzzing doesn't mean they are getting enough juice to fire the plugs under compression. I say that because I had pulled the plugs and watched them fire sitting on the head but under compression they were not doing the job. Hope it's something simple like that for you.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:44 pm

The thing most people do not understand about batteries! And this is the key about ALL batteries! It is NOT the voltage that is important! It IS the CURRENT/WATTS/AMPERAGE that is important! The silly thing is, that nearly all battery testers test ONLY the voltage (even a hydrometer check in effect is chemically testing the voltage).
Voltage becomes important when balancing power available to power needed.
While voltage tests on batteries are helpful, a positive result does NOT necessarily mean a battery is any good.

As an illustration (gently tiptoeing on politics??????) (please forgive me and allow this verbal illustration to stay?). A significant problem today is that many major stores, including some of the largest chain stores in the world today, are selling counterfeit batteries! Common AAA, AA, B, C, and D, among other specialty batteries, bought from supposedly legitimate sources are FAKES!
I have two sandwich bags full of nearly new D cells that fresh out of a box from a major (I won't name them here for the MTFCA's sake?) very popular source. All the batteries, fresh out of the box would light a standard incandescent flashlight bulb for a couple minutes, only. The flashlight then goes dim then dark in another minute. What is interesting to a used to was engineer like me, is that fresh, under load, the voltage test still says the battery is fresh and hot! But they will NOT light the bulb!
The fakes are stacked internally to appear hot, be cheap to manufacture, but have NO real capacity like a legitimate battery must have!

These are one of the two best known, most popular, and used to be most reliable brands on the market!!!!!!! NOT off brands, NOT cheaper brands, NOT lesser series, etc etc etc. I have gotten several packages of from four to sixteen batteries each that were bad this way. Yet, I have since bought the same brand, for more than twice the price, at the local grocery store, and they seem to work just fine. Seems to indicate that the real ones are still okay? If one can find the real ones?

Batteries often fail internally in such a way that they give a similar reaction. Appearing hot with a voltage test, only to not actually work in the real world. Power tests need to be made under load versus voltage conditions. Even then, I have seen batteries pass a load test, still not actually do the work it is supposed to. It has to do with what amounts to a load threshold. Typical load tests often do not test high enough to reach the real world threshold. I once had to rig up a threshold test to show that a battery that had passed typical load tests, worked well for anything it needed to, except for running the starter with a cold engine. The demand from the starter when the engine was cold was above the threshold of the battery's power available.

But I seem to recall that Steve had already tried a known hot battery?


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by cessna53195 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:54 pm

Steve, do you have an Anderson timer? The new flapper they sell today is not the same, as the MFG has changed, just another thought. I put one on and the spark was retarded by a bunch. Robert


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:02 pm

cessna53195 wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:54 pm
Steve, do you have an Anderson timer? The new flapper they sell today is not the same, as the MFG has changed, just another thought. I put one on and the spark was retarded by a bunch. Robert
I’m finding that my new Anderson is too retarded at start up, and I have to advance it more than usual to start it and get it running smoothly. I’ll have to dig into it further to see what is happening and where the slop is occurring.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by cessna53195 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:42 pm

I mixed the old cover with a new flapper, the spark was so retarded my advance lever had to be 3/4 down to get a kick. At that point I stopped and put my old flapper in and everything was normal again. Robert


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:59 pm

Mower/motorcycle batteries need a long slow charge (12 to 24 hrs) at a low rate (under 2 amps) to come up to full capacity. In my experience, they're more often bad than good. A simple voltage test probably will not reveal the whole story on battery state of charge or condition. A more reliable test is a load test, in which a LOAD of at least several amps is applied to the (presumed) fully charged battery. It should carry the load for at least ten seconds while maintaining 90% or so of its rated voltage. I had about 15 very dead car batteries out in the pasture. All had failed after years in service, some years ago. All except one of them would test at their nominal voltage on a digital voltmeter. None would light a pea bulb for more than a second or two, and all showed a very high voltage drop, like 90 to 100%, when connected to a tail light bulb. In the case of a Model T, a small battery that is not fully charged or that is in poor condition might test good on a no-load voltage test. Applying a load, such as when a Model T timer closes the primary cicuit, might cause the voltage at the coil to drop by a substantial amount, perhaps enough to make firing a cylinder difficult to impossible. Any 6 volt DC circuit needs quality wiring of sufficient gauge with clean, tight, high quality terminals and switches to function well. Skinny wire and iffy terminals or a gummy switch will aggravate issues with a battery that is not working at 100%.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:00 pm

Sometimes a smaller plug gap will get good results.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by RajoRacer » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:55 am

Regarding the "new" Anderson flapper timing: has anyone compared the locating pin hole placement to both ?


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Moxie26 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:25 am

Every time that you put a new commutator on the car, initial timing has to be reset. If you rely on prior adjustment you will have to place your spark lever and different positions to get the performance you are expecting. After installing a new commutator, no matter what brand, check the new position of the commutator for just after top dead center on compression and adjust the length of the spark rod at full retard.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:04 pm

What you need to know is exactly where the piston is in the cycle of intake, compression, power, and exhaust.

To find out, remove the wires from spark plugs 2, 3, and 4 so the engine can't start.

Remove #1 spark plug, put the spark lever up all the way, turn on the ignition to Bat, and slowly turn the crank until the #1 cylinder fires.

Stop turning and peak in the spark plug hole to determine the piston position.

The proper position is about 3/16th in down from Top Dead Center.

If you turn the crank a little more and the piston goes down, you are right on.

If you turn the crank a little more and the piston comes up, you are firing too soon, so you have to lengthen the timer to steering column spark rod.

If the piston has already started and continues down with a little more turning, you are firing too late and have to shorten the spark rod.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by John Codman » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:29 pm

As to the OP, what does "choked four times mean?


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by mtntee20 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:13 pm

John,

That means: Ignition OFF, Choke pulled out, crank pull four times to prime the engine.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Craig Leach » Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:48 pm

John,
That is usually reference to pulling out the choke rod & giving 4 pulls. Steve it sounds like you have tried just about everything. As I understand once the car is started it runs great? And when warmed up starts good? I went to start a friends car the other day and found the same issue. I found that it was not flowing fuel to the carb fast enough to fill the bowl in the time I thought it should. Brew out the fuel line and that seemed to take care of the problem at that time. My fire truck started doing the same thing and I found I was over choking it and flooding it but never seen fuel drip out of the carb??? It had always needed 3-4 pulls with the choke on to start if it had not just been running and more to start cold. I don't have a clue what changed but I wish it had told me. Darn things can be aggravating can't they.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:12 pm

I also had a ruck like that.

Once it sat for a few days, all the oi ldrained off the cylinder walls and there was not enough compression to suck any fuel mixture in the cylinder.

I would take out 1 or 2 spark plugs, add a little oil and then a little gas.

The truck engine would start on those two cylinders and soon go fast enough to splash oil on the others and run normal.

The engine would start easy for the next few times and until it sat for a day or more.

Engines with exhaust manifolds so warped they can't use the glands and rings and have to use the flat gaskets often have the same problem once the engine backfires and blows a hole in the intake gasket part.

That makes it easier to suck air than gas.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by John kuehn » Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:32 pm

My starter T’s start fairly quick when I turn it over with key off and do a quick choke. It will start easier that way. I then turn the key on and it then starts pretty quick almost all the time with a cold engine.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by DanTreace » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:44 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:18 am


The juice for the coils is from a 12 volt mower battery. It buzzes the coils, but I'll put a charger on it to be sure it's all the way up..

Similar issue with a friend’s hand winder speedster. He couldn’t get it to fire. We changed plugs with new, changed out coils with a fresh set I brought along, checked timer and timing. Key on, “coils buzzed”, but no fire. Told him that old motorcycle 12v battery is the issue, he said no, I just charged it. I said let’s go to lunch and then buy a new battery. Well….you know, that new battery fired the T on the second pull! :D
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:00 am

I did two things. 1 I left a charger on the battery overnight. 2 I dismantled the NH I was running until this week, found that the throttle shaft didn't need sleeving, checked the float level, reassembled, and put the carb on the car in place of the complete non-starting one that began this discussion. I set the spray needle open two full turns, put the throttle lever down about ¼, choked four times, and started on the seventh pull. Two turns out was too much, of course. After I smoothed out the running the NH was open one full turn. I shut off the engine, flipped the switch, and got an instant free start. I shut off the engine, flipped the switch, and got an instant free start. I shut off the engine, flipped the switch, and this time caught it between buzzes. With one pull of the crank it was running instantly.

A few minutes ago I got home from dinner/movie night in Wichita (Buffet City, E.T. 40th anniversary in IMax) and tried it cold, or as cold as it gets this time of year — about 87º in the shop. I left the carb at 1 turn, set the throttle about ¼ down, choked twice and flipped the switch. There was a little chuff, then I pulled three times and got a start on the third pull. If it stays that easy I'll be happy.

So what did it? The battery charge, or dismantling and reassembling the NH? I can't say for sure, but I suspect my fuel problem was electric.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:23 am

Well if you put "the complete non-starting one (carburetor) that began this discussion" back on, there's the risk/reward of knowing the cause
If it starts then it must have been that the battery needing a charg.
If it doesn't start then you'll need to put the current carb back on. If it starts is was the non-starting carb. If not recharge the battery & hope it starts

Not sure what battery your using - so called Motorcycle / Lawn Care battery are classed as starter batteries and the vehicles they are on have chargers. They don't last as long with repeated recharging. Marine (trolling) motor batteries are small as well and classed as deep cycling batteries - designed to be recharged often similar to golf cart batteries.
The type of battery charger used to charge Motorcycle / Lawn Care & Marine batteries effect longevity. Best to use one of Today's Battery tenders that regulate charging voltage and know when to shut off.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:30 am

A good charger for a small lead acid battery is a 1.5 amp "battery tender" type device. Optima makes a good one. The little batteries need frequent charging at a low, well-regulated rate. Cheap batteries are no bargain. I've found small batteries to be a dependable source of trouble and expense.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by CudaMan » Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:38 am

Whatever the cause, it's fixed now and you can concentrate on your other preparations for the drive to OCF. :)
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:38 pm

Well, apparently the cure was the battery charge. This morning I reinstalled yesterday's non-start NH, and today the car starts with it. The best spray needle setting is different, ¾ turn open rather than 1, but the car runs fine.

Now I'm wondering about the battery. I can keep it charged at home, but will the mag charger keep it peppy when I'm on a trip? Maybe I should park on hills for a rolling start, just in case. :D
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:43 pm

You might want to search the Internet for a Solar powered battery tender. You can charge your battery and the battery to charge your cell phone. They may even have one that does both. I would not use the mag charger on a small battery especially a "sprort" battery (motorcycle or Lawn Care) these where no made to be charged indiscriminately. You should get on that says Rechargeable like below. 8Ah is about all that one needs
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:12 pm

A mag charger would be worth a try, but it might not be very satisfactory with a small battery. I've had much better service from larger size batteries than from the little ones. I'd think a larger battery would be less likely to suffer overcharge issues with a mag charger than would a smaller one, and they always last longer, in my experience. If you try the mag charger on a small battery, having a quality analog ammeter and a convenient way to switch off the charger would allow monitoring of the charge situation and prevent overcharging. A voltmeter could be useful, but it would need to be very accurate to give a meaningful check on the battery state of charge. I believe you also have to consider the battery's temperature when attempting to check state of charge with a voltmeter.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by otrcman » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:11 pm

Steve,

The reason why it wasn't starting, and the reason why it does start now may not be fully understood yet, but it does start and run. And there are lots of us out here glad for the good news. Congratulations !!

Dick


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by John kuehn » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:33 pm

Good to hear you got it going Steve! And it was a simple issue too.
When things happen like this in your case it sometimes happens that owners will have a engine tare down, partial or the whole thing. It does get tempting and I’ve been there.

Like others have said a buzzing coil will sometimes convince you to look another place besides spark. And as we’ve seen in cases like yours a hot battery can make a big difference.

Those dang simple things so often overlooked!!!

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by WayneJ » Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:22 am

How old is your battery?
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by John Codman » Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:04 am

TRDxB2 wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:43 pm
You might want to search the Internet for a Solar powered battery tender. You can charge your battery and the battery to charge your cell phone. They may even have one that does both. I would not use the mag charger on a small battery especially a "sprort" battery (motorcycle or Lawn Care) these where no made to be charged indiscriminately. You should get on that says Rechargeable like below. 8Ah is about all that one needs
There is a Volkswagen solar battery tender/charger (12 V) The part # is ICO 915 687.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:45 am

Wayne, it's a "new" battery. I got it last winter.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Been Here Before » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:10 am

I am certain by now the problem has been resolved.

For an internal combustion motor to operate one needs fuel, air, compression, and ignition.

If the fuel is separating, water enters carb before gasoline, and the first thing to the carburetor is water...then no ignition.

A litter water in the carburetor and no ignition at all, or at least a shudder

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:18 am

A litter water in the carburetor and no ignition at all, or at least a shudder.

Yes, I had that problem in a tractor last year. But I've found no indication of water in this case.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Original Smith » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:57 am

Check for a vacuum leak.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:38 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:38 pm
Well, apparently the cure was the battery charge. This morning I reinstalled yesterday's non-start NH, and today the car starts with it. The best spray needle setting is different, ¾ turn open rather than 1, but the car runs fine.

Now I'm wondering about the battery. I can keep it charged at home, but will the mag charger keep it peppy when I'm on a trip? Maybe I should park on hills for a rolling start, just in case. :D
I see you don't have a "starter battery" (Motorcycle or Lawn Car) which are designed to start a car and then get charged briefly if necessary by a generator or alternator having a voltage regulator to prevent overcharging.
Your DIY Magneto Battery Charger shows a "rechargeable" battery https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG102.html
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by MichaelPawelek » Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:02 pm

Years ago we had a forum member who made a simple charger wire that took power off the magneto post and charged a regular 6v battery. I am terrible at all things electrical but remember it used only one side of the AC current and had some type of one way diode thingy so battery current could not run back into the magneto. I have one stored away somewhere……

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Novice » Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:57 pm

Magneto battery charger diagram.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:18 pm

Years ago we had a forum member who made a simple charger wire that took power off the magneto post and charged a regular 6v battery.

That's John Regan. He made the charger as a Fun Projects product, and also made the diagram Jim posted for those who wanted to DIY. See the link Frank posted.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:05 pm

It's easy to "cook" those very small batteries. A magneto charger might very well overcharge one often enough to dramatically shorten its useful lifespan. A riding mower size battery might give better results. If you must use the tiny battery, using a lower wattage bulb on the mag charger might be easier on the battery. On longer runs it would lower the average charge rate and reduce the liklihood of damaging the little battery. Another possible option might be to use the regulator "magic box" from a junk lawn mover that was originally equipped with the little battery. The push type mowers that use those little batteries charge the battery from a flywheel magneto that produce varying voltage and current much like a T magneto. I don't know if they are AC or DC, or if it matters to the regulator. I'll see if I can find some info on the Briggs-Stratton type regulators.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:04 pm

A friend of mine had continual problems using a small motorcycle/garden tractor battery. He couldn't make it through a day of driving even if the battery started out fully charged. I finally convinced him to use a "real" automotive battery. Problem solved.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:16 pm

I need to revise/update my mag charger page. Last winter when I set about installing brake/tail lights and turn signals in the car I replaced the little six volt battery strapped in the frame with a 12 volt riding mower battery in the trunk. LED's for 12 volts are much more plentiful than for six volts.

IMG_0700 copy.JPG
The present battery is an EverStart U1-7 (230 CCA) from Johnson Controls via Walmart.

In our last exciting episode you will recall that Sunday morning, after an overnight battery charge, the hard starting was "cured". But by Monday evening (last night, same carburetor, same everything else) the car was again a non-starter with too many pulls to count until I jacked a rear wheel off the floor to get it going. That's the frustrating thing about this adventure. Sometimes the problem seems fixed, then it isn't, then seems OK, then isn't.

I was going to try out a Holley G I've been working on, but for now I have a charger going to see if that will "cure" the hard starting again as it seemed to do Sunday morning. I'm leaving on the same NH that "didn't work", then did, then didn't. We'll see how that goes.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

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MKossor
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by MKossor » Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:21 pm

I'm betting it will start fine after over night charge. Step up, Place you bets :D

Time to load test that battery.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:14 pm

Yep. Overnight charge, at least. The battery may be self-discharging due to sediment or other internal issues, or it may be dried out, which will reduce its capacity to accept a charge and deliver current.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Moxie26 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:36 pm

Who wants to post a bet that changing battery cables to 2/0 gauge will eradicate his problem. ??????


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:56 pm

Switch to another good 12 volt “car” battery and see what happens.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:03 pm

What is about Motorcycle & Lawn Care batters for use in a Model T without a Voltage regulator

Question in Quara: How many amps hours can an Everstart “Lawn + Garden” U1R battery produce?
Answer by Darryl Johnson Former Electronics Repair and Installation Technician at U.S. Air Force (1986–2011)
The Ever-start Lawn/Garden U1R battery is not a deep cycle or AGM battery so it doesn’t come with a amp/hour (ah) rating.
Instead this particular battery comes with a 30 minute Reserve Capacity (RC).
Reserve Capacity is the number of minutes that a fully charged battery at 80°F be able to discharge at a 25 amp rate until the battery drops below 10.5 volts.
There doesn’t appear to be a reliable way to convert RC or CCA directly into ah.
In most cases using a starting battery in a deep discharge application will result in unsatisfactory performance, mainly due to the battery wearing out way too quickly.
I highly recommend that you choose a deep-cycle or AGM battery for deep discharge applications.
I hope that this info was useful/helpful.


The battery Jeff had was a RECHARGEABLE battery and so labeled. Its designed be recharge over and i=over again. CCA ratings refer to starting a car in cold weather and have little to do with how long you can keep your buzz coils buzzing or lights on. That is reflected in Ah. Think Golf Cart, Marine , Solar charged Batteries.
The common method of converting RC to Ah is 25*(RC/60) = 25*(30/60)= 12 Ah So if the light bulb load on the battery is 2 amps it will keep it lit for about 6 hours
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:35 pm

In my experience, lead acid batteries carrying a low, fixed load will begin to show a voltage drop well before they are completely exhausted. Aged or abused batteries rarely, if ever, deliver their full rated capacity, and the time period that they are able to maintain adequate voltage and current into even a moderate load degrades. Symptoms include dim lights at idle, lethargic cranking, accellerated self-discharge, and in the case of an ignition battery, erratic performance. A very smal 6 volt battery would not need to lose much capability or be severely discharged to make starting a T an iffy proposition.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Craig Leach » Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:20 pm

There are many inductive battery testers on the market now. If you are running 6vdc you have a smaller group to chose from. Even the cheap ones seem to work well. They will give you a voltage , CCA reading & a good/bad assessment. most battery MFGs do not recommend heavy load testing anymore. (I consider this a reflection on the construction on there batteries) I run my speedster on two small car batteries & no charging system at all.
They start, run ignition & fuel pump & when needed lights. Only one time when the head lights accidently got turned on did I ever have to go to the second battery after running 5 hours with the head lights on. I'm not sure but I think Steve is running total loss like me. ( no starter, fuel pump & ford ignition) I had some one call me one day getting ready for a tour when they discovered there battery was stone dead. They asked if I had a battery they could borrow I had a high amp Optima & a lawn tractor battery. They are running 12vdc and did not want to use the Optima for fear of damaging the starter. I made the garden tractor battery fit and they made the tour. Ran that battery for a year ( it was not new) said it didn't make the starter hit as hard & charged up very fast with the generator. It was a 230 CCA U1R Walmart battery @ $24. If you do not have a good way to test your batteries get one it will save you a lot of grief.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:47 am

Just to be clear what we're dealing with here, there is no starter on this 1915. The 12 volt riding mower battery is used only to buzz the coils for starting (I run on MAG) and for the LED brake/tail lights and turn signals. It's less than a year old, but that doesn't guarantee that it's still good.

After leaving the charger on for several hours I just went downstairs to the shop and tried starting the car. I choked twice, flipped the switch, and started easily on one pull. Has the battery been supplying enough juice to buzz the coils but not to spark the plugs? It sure seems that way, but I'm not convinced yet. We shall see.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:02 am

If you still have you "rechargeable" battery, you might give it a recharge and test with it as well (also have it as a backup).
This is a good article on how the coil works https://www.larescorp.com/toolbox/skinn ... f%20sparks.
It does mention that the coil will not work properly if it doesn't the required supply voltage.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by bobt » Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:42 am

I'll take Moxie's bet on changing to 2/0 cables will fix the problem. This is a hand cranked non starter car. bobt

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by CudaMan » Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:06 am

Sounds like your year-old battery is going out, since it won't hold enough of a charge for more than a day.

If it were me, I'd replace it before I took the car on a long drive.... :)
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:48 am

It's entirely possible for a T coil to buzz and produce high voltage at the secondary and yet fail to fire a plug in the engine. You might get better results using 2 small batteries, with one being exclusively an ignition battery and the second one being used for lighting and accessories. The fact that you seem to get good starting results when your battery has just been charged overnight suggests that the battery is the source of your problems. Battery life is not fixed, and some of them are old stock when purchased. In my experience, the smaller the battery and less expensive the battery, the more certain it is to be a source of problems. Heavier gauge wiring would probably give better results by reason of getting more of the battery current to the point of use.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Aussie16 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:06 am

I have been watching this thread with interest and waiting for a result as I have had a similar problem on my 1916. It was always a good starrter but more recently, it has been difficult. I was blaming gas mixture etc, draining the carb bowl etc and eventually it would start so I kept on with blaming gas problems. Eventually, I got to recharging my battery and now it is starting just like it used to. Funny how you can be led down the wrong path. Steve, keep that battery charged and tested and I think all will be well. Your recent posts have been all but how you have updated your electrical system. All these mods will be draining your battery more than ever. Perhaps you could consider an isolating switch for your electrics at the battery to ensure no loss while you are not running? Just my thoughts. Good luck with the hunt.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Mark Nunn » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:38 am

Steve, have you confirmed that something is not slowly draining your battery? I simple test is to disconnect one of the wires from the battery and put a test light between the wire and battery terminal. If the light glows, even a little, there is a drain somewhere. Good luck.

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:44 am

Regardless of Jelf's current battery starting the car Today, Tomorrow or maybe next week. A "starter" battery isn't the best choice for a Model T. While they work for some, they may not work for others (meaning short lived). Today's batteries are designed for Today's vehicles (car, motorcycle or lawn car) and technology (alternator with a voltage regulator). Batteries have several specifications that often mislead buyers to a selection.
Voltage choice, 6 or 12, is simply decided upon the device requirements being 6 or 12 volts. Amperage has to do with the the load on the system and how those amps need to be delivered to the load.

Starter Batteries - Starting, Lighting, Ignition (SLI)
These batteries deliver a large burst of power for a short time as needed for normal engine starting. The battery is then recharged by the alternator. Unlike a deep-cycle battery, starting batteries are not designed to withstand multiple discharge/recharge cycles, and draining it can significantly shorten its life. Today's cars have starters requiring more amps (400-600amps) while a good working Model T starter is in the range 0f 150-160 amps
Starter batteries have a very low internal resistance, and the manufacturer achieves this by adding extra plates for maximum surface area. The plates are thin and the lead is applied in a sponge-like form that has the appearance of fine foam. This method extends the surface area of the plates to achieve low resistance and maximum power. Plate thickness is less important here because the discharge is short and the battery is recharged while driving; the emphasis is on power rather than capacity.
starter plates.png
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By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, May 14, 2012"
"Assuming the starting motor is operating properly on 6 volts it should draw 70 amps free running, 150-160 Amps cranking engine and 450 Amps stalled pushing 12 pounds of torque. Model T battery cables should be 1/0 with soldered (not crimped) wire terminals. "
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CCA, cold crank amps, is the specification for starting and nothing else. It's the number of amps a battery can support for 30 seconds at a temperature of 0°F until the battery voltage drops to unusable levels.
RC Reserve Capacity (RC) is a very important rating. This is the number of minutes a fully charged battery at 80 ° F will discharge 25 amps until the battery drops below x volts (10.5 volts for a 12 volt batter).


Deep-Cycle Batteries

These batteries are designed to provide a steady amount of current over a long period of time. Deep-cycle batteries can be repeatedly discharged and recharged without causing damage or shortening their life. They are well suited to powering numerous electronics and plug-in accessories, or other applications that place high demands on them such as marine or RV.
Deep-cycle lead acid batteries for solar battery systems, fork trucks, golf cars, scooters and wheelchairs are built for maximum capacity and high cycle count. The manufacturer achieves this by making the lead plates thick. Although the battery is designed for cycling, full discharges still induce stress, and the cycle count depends on the depth-of-discharge (DoD). Deep-cycle batteries are marked in Ah or minute of runtime.
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The important specification for these is Ah - its simply the time that the battery will deliver x amps. So a 100Ah battery can roughly deliver 10amps for 10 hours (100Ah/10hours).
deep cycle.png
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Some deep-cycle batteries can be used for engine starting as well (these are sometimes referred to as dual-purpose), but be sure to check the CCA rating to ensure the battery has sufficient starting power.

A starter battery cannot be swapped with a deep-cycle battery and vice versa. While an inventive senior may be tempted to install a starter battery instead of the more expensive deep-cycle on his wheelchair to save money, the starter battery won't last because the thin sponge-like plates would quickly dissolve with repeated deep cycling. There are combination starter/deep-cycle batteries available for trucks, buses, public safety and military vehicles, but these units are big and heavy. As a simple guideline, the heavier the battery is, the more lead it contains, and the longer it will last. Below we compares the typical life of starter and deep-cycle batteries when deep-cycled.

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Two battery solution 6v and 12v simply remove the jumper and hook your light battery to light circuit and your coil battery to the other post
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Last edited by TRDxB2 on Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Craig Leach » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:07 pm

Good article Frank. Sometimes we forget the fine details of every day things.
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:15 pm

TRDxB2 wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:44 am
Regardless of Jeff's current battery starting the car
His name is Jelf, Steve Jelf.


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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm

Steve,

I think you just need an actual automotive battery. Or, maybe return the one you've got for warranty.

Safe travels my friend. Looking forward to seeing you at OCF, safe & sound! :)

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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:36 pm

His name is Jelf, Steve Jelf.

My dad used to say "Jelf himself".
I always say I'd like to meet Jeff. We must look a lot alike. People have been getting us mixed up for years.
:D
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Re: No start/hard start: it's getting maddening.

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:47 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:36 pm
His name is Jelf, Steve Jelf.

My dad used to say "Jelf himself".
I always say I'd like to meet Jeff. We must look a lot alike. People have been getting us mixed up for years.
:D
sorry - automatic spelling checker never met Steve- I corrected
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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