Modern Magnets?

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Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:15 am

Weak magneto output afflicts many Model Ts. I wonder if it would be practical to make replacement magnets that fit in the original magneto assembly but had the power and durability of modern permanent magnets. Many portable generators have permanent magnet rotors that operate sucessfully under conditions of heat and vibration at least as severe as the Model T magneto operates under. Stronger and more durable magnets would provide higher output at cranking speeds and would make the clearance between the magnets and the magneto coil far less critical. Excess output at higher engine speeds could be controlled with a choke coil.

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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by JTT3 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:23 am

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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by BobD » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:27 am



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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:39 am

Just a wild thought. How would it work to shape aluminum bar stock into the size and shape of conventional "T" magnets, bore a blind hole in the face of each end and epoxy a 3/8" rare earth magnet (correctly orienting polarity) such that the binding plate would cover the magnet. Appearance would be the same, rotating mass would be reduced, balance would be easy, and oil delivery would be same as stock. What could possibly go wrong?


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by speedytinc » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:59 am

"Weak magneto output....." Your point? A good recharged magnet set will put out 35+ volts. Thats individual magnets recharged with a simple electromagnet. A DC arc welder can recharge 30+ volts in car. Been there, done that.
I havent seen any voltage degradation in 4 years of use with the individual magnet recharge.
Does the magnetizim normally degrade with time? Isnt most failures due to field coil shorts/damage & DC power killing the magnetic charge?

Its an interesting think piece, but I didnt see any power output numbers from the "new" flywheel. What is the advantage? Weight reduction? Longer lasting charge? More reliable securing of the magnets? Whats the goal?

Dont get me wrong, I am open minded to improvements, but Is this a needless reinventing of the wheel?


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:03 pm

If the strength of these new magnets were significantly greater than original magnets, (and I think that's the goal here), I would worry about wear on the thrust surface of the rear main bearing cap.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:04 pm

The goal would be substantially higher output at hand cranking speeds and eliminating issues with thrust bearing wear causing reduced output. Higher output at cranking speeds would make coil adjustment and other ignition system adjustments less critical and would make cold weather starting on magneto easier. It would appear that modern magnets hold magnetism better than the original types, given that weak magnets from whatever cause are common in Model Ts and have been common for over a century. Even with good stock equipment, people have been resorting to jacking up a rear wheel, adding ignition batteries and other procedures to facilitate cold weather starting on magneto.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:09 pm

I'd think that other forces acting on the crankshaft would be far greater than the pull of the magnets against the thrust face. I don't think the l increased electrical output would cause issues with the mag coil unless the car was driven fast over long distances with a heavy load applied to the magneto. An induction coil could be added to the magneto output to regulate high speed output, which would prevent overloading the magneto coil or burning out headlights. Another benefit of stronger magnets would be brighter lights at lower engine RPM on non-electric cars and better ignition performance at very low speeds.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:30 pm

I am seriously considering making up a flywheel with the aluminum "magnets" and operating it on my motor driven HCCT just to see how it might perform. Do any of you metallurgists have any recommendations on whether to attempt to bend the bars or weld them at the junction of the poles and do you have any thoughts on what type of aluminum might be best for the experiment.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:40 pm

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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:44 pm

I'd think you'd want to bend the bars and anneal them. Bonding or clamping small, high strength magnets to the original Ford magnets might do the job. A number of modern magnet materials can survive 300 to 500 F.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by jab35 » Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:55 pm

I recall a post some time back where someone had created an all aluminum flywheel with bored pockets in the face, and modern hockey-puck magnets pressed into each cavity. This was intended for operation at engine speed and temp, but since the hcct turns slower the mounting would not need to be as strong. However, by the time you figure out how to attach P-Magnets to the C-Iron flywheel, and set the gap, an all aluminum flywheel may be the simplest. Maybe an aluminum disc (~1/2" thick??) with holes for magnets centered over the keeper screws and 4 holes matching 4 of the magnet hanger bolt holes would be a starting design? Spacers between the disc and flywheel at the 4 hanger bolts would set the magnet pole face to stator coil gap and I doubt you would need any keeper screws. Light press fit dry? or slip fit magnets into holes in plate and some loctite to secure?? Good luck with your project, jb

And there have been some good posts on the strength of the modern puck-type magnets necessary to excite the magneto, and I can't locate that either. Before you get too far along, I suggest determining the 'strength' and composition (ceramic vs metal) of magnet needed and building your holders to fit that particular magnet. Temperature rating of magnet in service obviously is not an issue with your hcct. jb


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by speedytinc » Sat Aug 20, 2022 2:05 pm

Let us know how it works out. This is an interesting idea.
In thinking about it, a much lighter flywheel that still works the magneto ignition could be a good thing.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:57 pm

To those contemplating using these high strength, modern magnets for a HCCT, do you suppose that coils adjusted on this "hot-rodded" HCCT would perform the same in a T using traditional magnets?


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:13 pm

Jerry

Whether it does or doesn't "over perform", I think a simple voltmeter and adjusting the air gap would bring it to nominal, given that the magnetic field force is reduced by the square of the distance from the coil to magnets. It wouldn't take much shimming to tame it.

Given that coils are current operated, I doubt that it even matters. They're going to operate at a given current whether the HCCT is spun slowly or quickly, with pooped out magnets or moon-shot magnets.
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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Sun Aug 21, 2022 4:56 pm

Jerry, I won't be adjusting the coils on the hcct but will use it for a test stand for the newer magnets on a flywheel. Because it is motor driven it will make comparison testing more accurate than in a car and the flywheels can be exchanged or re-shimmed in just a few minutes. I would like to then attach the ecct to the mag output on the hcct with both flywheels and compare voltage at constant speed. I don't know, after reading the information Mike has about the mag test on the ecct, whether the voltage can be tested at the low rpm that the hcct provides. I have enough parts on order to produce two or three flywheels in different configurations and with several size magnets to see what happens. I'll keep you posted - if I never bring it up again......it probably didn't work!

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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by A Whiteman » Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:09 pm

Thanks for the comments Scott, I was just thinking about issues of 'too much' current on the rest of the electrical system, then I read your explanation. Thanks for the explanation :-)


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:41 pm

If your mag is too hot the sparks will jump all over the engine bay. I've done it with stock parts. Had to put a resistor in to keep the electricity in the wires.
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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Sat Aug 27, 2022 9:37 pm

My hcct runs at about 190 rpm. How much voltage do you think would be too high at that speed. I need an analog meter to be sure what I have but my digital meter is bouncing around at twenty volts or so.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:30 am

Correction - I borrowed the mag gauge from my speedster this morning and found the ac voltage to be around 5 volts at just under 200 rpm. The hcct showed 16 strong consistent sparks at that speed. I used rather small magnets and could easily replace them with stronger ones. In your opinion, should I do that or continue with what I have?


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:41 am

If you hand crank the car, I'd certainly try for stronger magnets. More power at low crankshaft speeds won't hurt anything. The coils are evidently very tolerant of higher AC voltages, since 30 V is not uncommon with a good magneto at higher RPM. High voltage can be regulated, if necessary, by adding an appropriate choke to the magneto output. The choke would have little effect at lower AC frequencies, but would act to block a portion of the magneto output at the higher AC frequencies which would occur at high engine RPM.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:21 am

Thinking of replacing the motor on the hcct with a vfd controlled one. What would be your best guess of an rpm that would best simulate an average quarter turn hand crank?


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:38 am

Doesnt the HCCT have a transformer/resistor built in to regulate/choke the voltage?
Are you taking your readings before or after this resistor?


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Aug 28, 2022 11:49 am

the choke is in the circuit for testing magneto output of a car. It has no influence on the HCCT with respect to its output, or coil testing.
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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:02 pm

I'd estimate that a brisk 1/4 turn pull on the crank would take 1/4 second, more or less. The speed of the pull would not be uniform for the duration of the pull, so the output of the magneto would not be uniform for the duration of the pull, either. Would that correspond to 50 to 60 RPM? A motor-driven HCCT would provide a fairly even magneto rotor speed at any given RPM, unlike the 1/4 turn pull. A good analog AC voltmeter might give some indication of effective RPM if connected to a good magneto. Make several good pulls and average the peak indicated voltage, then compare it to the voltage reading with a good HCCT operating at a speed that gave the same voltage.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:04 pm

A choke with the proper characteristics placed in series with the magneto and its load can act to limit the magneto power reaching the load at higher output frequencies.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:41 pm

In all of the Model T's I have worked on, I have found chokes on MAG output on exactly none of them

And of all Model T owners I've ever met, the number of people who've said "Dang, this MAG puts out so much, I need to reign it in!" is exactly "zero" also.

If excessive MAG output is a real thing in Texas, perhaps each home owner should be issued a HCCT and allowed to fend for themselves this winter.
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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:43 pm

I’m not smart enough to understand the physics involved with a choke or how to size one for the application. I’ll modify the setup to maximize the output and report back for further instructions. This thing really fascinates me!


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:29 pm

What on earth is everyone's fascination in putting a choke on a magneto output?
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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:34 pm

I didn't realize everyone was fascinated. The purpose would be to avoid excess output with stronger magnets at higher engine speeds. The aim of the stronger magnets modification would be to obtain substantially higher magneto output at hand cranking speeds, and in the case of magneto powered headlights, to obtain better lighting as low engine speeds. Magneto performance would also be less affected by main bearing wear.
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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:34 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:29 pm
What on earth is everyone's fascination in putting a choke on a magneto output?
My 14 puts out 35 volts. I see no reason to limit this out put. I have not noticed any problems. My new day timer hasnt suffered.
Been running this way for several years. Easy 1/4 turn start on mag.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:36 pm

If you were to modify your magneto with stronger magnets, output might be excessive at higher engine speeds. If so, regulation would be needed.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:49 pm

Baloney

You add rare-earth magnets to make it stronger, you're worried that the thing will shoot lightning out of it and you decide you need a choke to bring it back down to 30V

or you add .020 more air gap and be done with it

News Flash: Rare earth magnets have been used successfully in Model T engines already, and undoubtedly will, again.
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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:52 pm

I'd want higher output available at hand cranking speed. Magneto output at higher engine speeds is rarely deficient, and when it is, it usually not due to low magnet strength.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Sun Aug 28, 2022 1:59 pm

I run a number of itimers on my cars and am not as concerned with the coils as I am with those timers. The magnets I have made replace the unbalanced steel ones with machined aluminum ones which would significantly reduce the weight of the assembled flywheel, improve balance, maintain the original appearance and oil delivery, and make clearance less critical with the mag coils.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 2:51 pm

Re: Choke *(inductor)* regulation for Magneto output:
"...Warren is correct. These began use around 1917. They consist of a tapped inductor. It is wired in series with the magneto and headlights with a small portion of the winding used on HIGH beam and the whole winding inserted when using LOW beam" ///// John Regan, MTFCA forum post, 3-31-09


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:15 pm

Pat

you've done nothing but refer to ignition, hand cranking, etc. You're absolutely right, though, now you've turned to chokes to control lighting. If changing the application of the subject helps to maintain control of the debate, then so be it. So now we get to learn about the one thing absolutely no one asked about (at least that I can divine from the original question).
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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 7:54 pm

Increased magneto output at low crankshaft speeds would be an advantage, at least to many people. That would apply both to crank starting and to the operation of magneto lights at lower car speeds. Increased magneto output would aggravate issues that aare known to exist with magneto powered lighting at higher speeds, and it might be an issue with magneto powered Ford igniton coils. In either case, a choke could be added to regulate the output at higher RPM without diminishing the desired improved low speed magneto output. As far as I'm concerned, you're debating yourself. I began with a question. Some responses have raised additional questions from myself and from others. I've tried to answer those questions, when I am able to. A choke can be used to regulate Ford magneto output. That's clear, and that's germaine to the discussion. Whether the Ford coils would need such regulation, I do not know. I suspect they would benefit from an ample and more stable magneto power supply, especially when hand cranking and at low engine speeds. I'm quite certain that Model T magneto powered headlights would benfit from better low speed magneto performance and some regulation of magneto output at higher speeds. I don't see anything controversial about any of that.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:00 pm

"... now you've turned to chokes to control lighting" ...
As a matter of fact, I mentioned using a choke in series with the magneto load TO REGULATE ENHANCED MAGNETO OUTPUT AT HIGHER ENGINE SPEEDS early in the discussion. At some point, increasing magneto output at higher speeds would cause problems.

What I said: Stronger and more durable magnets would provide higher output at cranking speeds and would make the clearance between the magnets and the magneto coil far less critical. Excess output at higher engine speeds could be controlled with a choke coil.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:10 pm

Do such higher magnetic field magnets exist? Presumably able to lift more than 4#'s?
Has anyone built a magnet set that will produce more than 35-40 volts other than stock in a T?
If someone has a successful alternative to stock, what are it's performance #'s?


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:16 pm

Much stronger magnets do exist, and at least some of them could survive indefinitely in the T environment. Given that strong permanet magnets are now commonly used in applications like portable generators, I don't think interaction with the magneto coil or changing electrical loads would cause them any harm. Some are rated for temperatures well beyond what you'd encounter in the Model T magneto.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:23 pm

Here's another thing to sleep on. If my math is correct (and it may not be) the tips of the magnets on a stock flywheel travel at 250 miles per hour at 1500 rpm. Multiply that by the 32 poles rotating through air and oil and consider that the ends are as square as they were sheared at the factory. The vortex created at each pole must contribute considerable drag. If the ends of the magnets were milled to a 5/16" smooth radius do you think the aerodynamics would provide a noticeable difference in performance?


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:31 pm

Samarium cobalt magnets provide approximately 85 percent of the field strength of neodymium (cheaper and much more common) but have a maximum operating temperature of 500 to 700 degrees F. where ordinary neodymium start to fail at 200-250 degrees F., which might still work but are on the border of certain failure. I have been in contact with magnet manufacturers and they tell me that they can dope neodymium magnets to increase their threshold to 300 F. or slightly higher, but I think the higher temp. Samarium magnets are the way to go


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:41 pm

The shape of the rotating parts of the magneto have a considerable effect of how much horse power is dissipated via the oil and by windage. I'd think there's room for improvement without defeating the oiling function. There's information somewhere on some tests of effects of various engine modifications and parasitic losses in Model Ts. (Tulsa MTFCA?)


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:34 am

Apologies, the tip speed of the magnet poles at 1500 rpm works out to 64 miles per hour, I only missed it by a factor of four. Amazing what a nights sleep will do for your math skills.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by browning » Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:37 pm

Made a change in the magnets tonight and the voltage increased to about 7 volts at 190 rpm. Ordered 100 samarium magnets today which should make about a 40 percent improvement.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:28 am

That's a significant increase, and I'd expect to find that it would make crank starting on mageto consistently easier, and would offer an opportunity to get much better service from magneto powered headlights. The magneto performance could decay considerabley and still match or exceed the performance of an original equipment magneto. I'd also think that some means of regulating magneto output at high engine speeds would be desireable. Ford used a simple choke device to accomplish magneto regulation on some cars. A T coil primary might serve the purpose, or any other 6 or 12 volt coil primary.


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Re: Modern Magnets?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:49 pm

You can now change that "zero" to a one. I've done it, and said it.
Scott_Conger wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:41 pm
In all of the Model T's I have worked on, I have found chokes on MAG output on exactly none of them

And of all Model T owners I've ever met, the number of people who've said "Dang, this MAG puts out so much, I need to reign it in!" is exactly "zero" also.

If excessive MAG output is a real thing in Texas, perhaps each home owner should be issued a HCCT and allowed to fend for themselves this winter.
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