Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

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Matt in California
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Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Matt in California » Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:54 am

I have an idea for building a run engine stand that would rotate around the front engine mount using a old engine frame. This would not be ideal for pan/transmission alignment, but more of top and bottom end engine work.

Here are the design requirements I have in mind:
  • Radiator can be mounted- so it is a true run stand.
  • Engine can be rotated piston inspection can be up or sideways
  • Small/light/rigid for easy storage and loading of one person in a truck. Breakdown a plus.
  • Cheap- using old damaged Model T frame as parts would be a plus.
Other bonuses:
  • Throttle/timer adjustment
  • On wheels
  • Battery/Coil/Gas tank mount
Here is the basic concept of what I am thinking:
97B2E2DB-3A18-4409-AB46-B063EF23C120.jpeg
0568ADE8-8BE6-4163-83C7-38697005514D.jpeg
Before I move forward I would like to hear what you have used or seen.

Matt
Last edited by Matt in California on Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ABoer
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by ABoer » Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:16 pm

Matt , I use this as a Run Engine Stand .
IMG_0892.JPG
IMG_0893.JPG
IMG_0894.JPG
Toon

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Craig Leach
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Craig Leach » Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:25 pm

Hi Mat,
There are a lot of pics of run stands out there but have not seen one that the engine could be rotated in. Could you turn the T frame upside down,
put the pan mount on the spring side to mount the front of the pan. Put another front crossmember at the rear with a front mount the same way
use a old fourth main on backwards, use a cut off output shaft and make a shaft that fit in the motor mount at the rear. You will have to make
removable pan ear mounts for support & to stop the engine from turning upside down when running. It would be best to mount the front
crossmembers on the topside of a frame so they will line up (as the taper in the frame will make them miss aligned) Making it collapsible would
be a big plus mine in in the way all the time. A mistake I made was putting the lower leg supports low enough to mount a battery but they are to
low to get a cherry picker under when someone else uses it. I found that for test running the radiator hoses will hold the radiator in place just
fine. I have been fortune enough that my engines either come off the run stand into the car or onto a storage cart for later use.
Happy engineering.
Craig.


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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:42 pm

It seems to me that a regular engine stand on which the engine can be fitted after hoisting it out of the car and can be rotated works just fine for assembling the engine. If you fit all the parts correctly, you would only have a few fine adjustments to make after lowering the engine right into the car getting ready to drive it.
How would you use the radiator with the engine upside down and how would the gravity oil and fuel work. You could only do adjustments by rotating the engine, but it could only be run with it right side up. So the one in the picture looks like it would be fine for running the engine.
Norm


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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:10 pm

You would never be able to rotate the engine about it's front mount per-se. The weight would kill you.

You COULD make a stand with 1/4 semi-circular legs on the front such that the run-in stand could be lifted up at the transmission and "rolled" on the front semi-circular legs such that the whole thing could be stood on it's nose.

see this for explanation: https://canbuilt.com/ladders-trucks-car ... del-45rkd/

For safety consideration, you'd want to make the thing with full length runners on the ground that are fastened to the frame, and when the clips are removed, the whole thing is free to rock forward on the runners and then clip solidly again.

Like this: https://www.palletforks.com/fork-mounte ... ucQAvD_BwE

Would I want something designed to do this? No. Not at all.

EDIT: I see now which way you wish to rotate things and nothing I posted complies with your needs.
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Matt in California
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Matt in California » Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:46 pm

Norman Kling wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:42 pm
How would you use the radiator with the engine upside down and how would the gravity oil and fuel work. You could only do adjustments by rotating the engine, but it could only be run with it right side up. So the one in the picture looks like it would be fine for running the engine.
Norm
Norm to answer your question I would not have the radiator or oil in the engine for rotation. So it would be dual purpose assembly and test stand.

I do like the ideas everyone is posting. Lots of things to consider.

Matt

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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Craig Leach » Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:38 pm

Hi Matt,
Interesting idea. Scott is correct 3/4 of the weight of a T engine is above the center line of the crank so if that is the pivot point it will want to
flip head down so there will need to be some way to control the rotation. I have seen something like that in picture at the assembly plant?
Craig.

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Matt in California
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Matt in California » Sat Sep 17, 2022 11:45 pm

Craig Leach wrote:
Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:38 pm
Hi Matt,
Interesting idea. Scott is correct 3/4 of the weight of a T engine is above the center line of the crank so if that is the pivot point it will want to
flip head down so there will need to be some way to control the rotation. I have seen something like that in picture at the assembly plant?
Craig.
I under stand the balance concern. I found the following info on the forum here:http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/11 ... 1281751326

Starting with parts that would balanced above and bellow crank shaft axis:

94.0 Complete 1926 Flywheel and Transmission Assembly
52.0 Flywheel/Starter Ring and Magnets Assembly
13.6 16 Magnets (Note 1 Magnet = 13.6 Ounces)
4.0 Starter Ring Gear
14.5 Coil Ring Gear
18.6 1926 Reverse/Low/Brake Drum Assembly
8.0 1926 Brake Drum
7.0 1916 Brake Drum
5.0 1926 Reverse Drum
2.0 1926 Low Drum
3.25 Universal Joint
2.5 1 Triple Gear with a Bushing
7.5 3 Triple Gears with Bushings
7.0 1926 Transmission Back Plate with Clutch Spring Assembly with Fingers/Adj Screws
4.6 1926 Transmission Back Plate No Clutch Spring Assembly with Fingers/Adj Screws
.9 Push Ring
3.0 Transmission Shaft
2.5 High Speed Clutch Drum
.5 8 Back Plate Bolts
17.0 1926 Crankshaft
267.45 lbs for transmission and other things balanced on center line.


Things above the crank shaft axis:
32.0 Transmission Cover with High Speed Clutch Assembly and No Pedals
31.0 Crank Shaft, Pistons, Valves, Valve Guides and Valve Lifters
78.0 Bare Block
26.0 Head
20.0 Starter with Bendix and Spring Assembly
15.4 Generator with Drive Gear
5.4 1925 Ford Exhaust Manifold (5.0 1916 Exhaust Manifold)
2.8 1925 Intake Manifold (3.0 1916 Intake Manifold)
2.25 Holley NH Carburetor
0.5 1925 Hot Air Pipe
0.2 Oil Tube
213.55 total for parts above crankshaft.

Things bellow the crank shaft axis:
35 Four dip engine pan and inspection cover
1.75 Front Ball Cap Bearing
1.00 Rear Ball Cap Ring
37.75 for parts bellow crankshaft

Thus we have about 175 lbs mismatch above crankshaft on a fully loaded engine. I am not sure exactly where the center of gravity is, but dropping the engine 3-5 inches bellow the spinning spinning axes.


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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Allan » Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:56 am

Sometimes making one piece of equipment do more than one task becomes more complicated and unwieldy than making two separate pieces. I can do all the engine building tasks on my present engine stand with the motor/trans held by the side water outlet bolts and a couple of 5/16" locators through two pan bolt holes.
I do the running in the car. The engine test run setup posted here looks just as good, and would not take up much additional space in the workshop.
Two bits of gear, both doing what is required, with little/no complications.
I will watch this development with interest.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by ABoer » Sun Sep 18, 2022 5:10 am

Matt in Call ;
To put the whole Engine together, I use this Engine Stand .
It can rotate 360 degrees .
Toon
IMGP1175.JPG
IMGP1171.JPG


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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Gene_French » Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:45 am

Matt:
unless i am missing something here in your description , it seems that this design would require all assembly to be done on the pan ... this would not be an issue for most engine components , but would be difficult in the transmission and flywheel areas ... the common method of using the water inlet and 2 pan bolts will work better ,in that the engine can be placed in a vertical position to allow setting of mag coil clearance and alignment checks ... always an optimist ...Gene French

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Matt in California
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Matt in California » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:43 pm

I appreciate everyone comments. I can see the advantages of using an engine stand modified for a Model T. I can also see how a nice run stand is useful if a car is not available to test the engine.

My main purpose for this engine stand would be when I find a spare engine that hasn’t been ran for a long time I could work on it doing basic things like adjusting the valves or perhaps even removing the camshaft two a ream a valve guide or change the piston rings.

I might be stubborn, but I decided to give my idea a try. A neighbor was throwing out a bed frame, so I decided to use it for my base and even found a purpose for the casters!

Here is a progress photo:
6B610F38-86AA-4619-A381-AB763E22F875.jpeg
Here is a mock up of the rotisserie engine stand just to see how things are fitting together. Obviously the boards would be removed the engine would be connected two brackets welded on the rim. I have some ideas for the front of the engine still gathering parts for that.
D12A0A8A-7059-45E6-AE88-124D1132C3D0.jpeg
91189DFF-39AE-42BE-A07B-50470D66F617.jpeg
One of the benefits of using a bedframe on this project is that I am learning how to sharpen drills on my vertical belt sander. :lol: Bed frame rails are very hard. I start with an 8th inch drill in the step up to more steps. I’ve had to sharpen the drills multiple times for the dozen holes I drilled. I welded the base frame together. I attempted to notch and bend the frame but it would crack, so I had to heat it with a torch to bend it. Fun stuff. I figure worst case scenario it will make a good base for a run normal engine stand.

I appreciate your comments and suggestions.

Matt

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Matt in California
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Matt in California » Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:35 am

Here is a early design with a similar concept and more!
Rotating Model T Engrine Stand.JPG
https://books.google.com/books/content? ... 358&edge=0


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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Banjoe » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:05 am

Hi Matt in California,

Love the concept and wish you luck on pulling this off.

The only problem I can see at the moment is the line of rotation. Your mounting points will put the center of gravity too low making the assembly top heavy. If you check the engine stand picture posted by ABoer above, you can see the point that the engine rotates on that standard stand. This line of rotation makes the top and bottom weights roughly the same so spinning the engine around the mounting axis is not much of a battle. This point on the block will be close to the point that you will need to rotate your engine - although 90° to this to get the longitudinal spin that you are after.

Mounting to the engine "ears" and "nose" gives you solid points to lock down the engine but the horizontal axis will have to be somewhat above them again to put half the assemble weight above and below the line of rotation. Spinning around on the crankshaft axis will give you a top heavy assembly. It will certainly be easy to rotate the head down to the bottom but getting it back up again will be hard work that can be reduced by balancing the weight more evenly.

Maybe thinking about an auto body rotisserie will help explain what I'm suggesting....

https://www.redlinestands.com/catalog/s ... 7_328_212/

Of course, this is only an observation from someone who has never heard, built, or even seen a horizontal engine stand until you build yours. Looking forward to seeing your creation in operation.

Joe
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:30 am

Early 4 cylinder Plymouth "Floating Power" engine/transmission units with rubber mounts were set up so that the engine could (partially) rotate around its center of mass. The single front mount was located at the front of the block just under the block to head joint. The rear mounts were located about where the T rear mount ears are. The center of mass of the engine/transmission unit was represented by a slanting line angled downward from the front mount back toward the transmission tailshaft. That suggests that the similiar T engine/transmission would need a front attachment to a rotating stand somewhere near the water outlet. I would want a reliable brake and safety lock pin arrangement on any type of rotating stand.

Search: "Plymouth Floating Power" (Plymouth Club) (Illustration)

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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Rich Eagle » Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:29 pm

Here is what Eco was offering about that time.
Eco2.jpg
Eco3.jpg
and the larger one.
Eco1.jpg
There are no dates in the catalog, but I am guessing about 1920.
When did I do that?

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Matt in California
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Matt in California » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:46 pm

Thanks for all the photos and suggestions!

Here is an update on my progress. I did attempt to find a way to make the engine more balanced, but decided to just keep it simple.
EF49A060-2A78-499F-A375-22D072515309.jpeg
Easy to invert the engine.
36D3B101-FABB-4074-8D46-71ABDB04EA7B.jpeg
Hand crank mechanism consist of chain that I got from the garage door the mechanism and a crank handle probably from old grinder. The chain looks to be about the same as a bicycle chain. The gear ratio seems perfect as it is not difficult to turn.
85E4E2B4-00EF-462A-BCE6-229693823490.jpeg
This is the part that connects the chain to the door. It worked great to tighten the chain.
F15F20B1-78D9-4621-8C18-2BCC05BF816A.jpeg
As suggested I use a bolt to lock in position. I will drill more holes when I determine where I want to lock it.
496A52A0-F20E-4171-91C6-0D6C9946DE41.jpeg
This has meet all my goals. It is light weight and could easily be transported in the trunk of my Saturn. And with the large wheels I can easily roll it over large rocks and gravel in my back yard.

I am still testing it, but like the results that I am seeing. There is still work to be done to run a engine on it.

Matt

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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Oct 16, 2022 10:54 pm

Quite ingenious there, Matt !

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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:20 am

ABoer’s takes the cake for me. Pan off is what did it. About as simple as it can get with totally full access.
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:13 am

That would also be handy for cleaning up an engine unit prior to rebuilding.


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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Mike Lebsack-Iowa » Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:33 pm

I’m coming in a little late on this discussion but thought I could share an idea that I have benefitted from. A few years ago Gail Rodda suggested that I purchase his portable engine running stand. He built this years ago for the purpose of starting and running in freshly rebuilt handcrank T engines. It utilizes the front section of a T frame but has the addition of a hinged portion at the rear that has a 3/4 HP , 19:1 electric gear reduction unit with a Bush Hog clutch (like utilized on a tractor mower) and custom drive shaft. The drive shaft has a 1” square end that simply slides into the transmission like the T u-joint. I usually remove the spark plugs then turn on the electric motor and easily turns over the motor. I have the radiator and everything connected but simply leave the coilbox and gas turned off for this initial run in. Yes the engine does generate some heat from friction. After about 15 minutes I reinstall the plugs, turn on the fuel and switch the activate the electric motor. It pops right off and quickly overrides the Bush Hog clutch without any issue. I switch off the electric motor and let the engine break in. The frame has a coilbox, small gas tank, throttle and spark control and new flat tube radiator. The gear reduction unit has not problem turning the new motors over even with hi compression heads.

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Matt in California
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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Matt in California » Sun Oct 23, 2022 2:29 am

I appreciate everyone’s feedback.

Charlie, I agree that an engine stand that attaches to the block and holds it vertically is ideal for assembling an engine. The idea here is a run engine stand that rotates. I was wanting to build a run engine stand that is versatile.

Mike that sounds like a good idea when adjusting rod caps or initially running a engine.

Matt


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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Dan McEachern » Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:22 pm

One suggestion on your chain- one wrap of the chain will limit your rotation to less than 360 degrees. You might consider two wraps of chain that will allow you to go all the way around with no restrictions.


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Re: Run engine stand that rotates- want to see what you have before I build mine

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Oct 23, 2022 2:00 pm

Rube approves!
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