learning to drive my T

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andy2794
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learning to drive my T

Post by andy2794 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:17 am

I have a 1916 Touring and trying to learn how to drive it. I have watched the videos but not much out there for these hills in PA. I can go in low & reverse OK, I am learning to adjust the throttle & timing, but when I move the Ebrake into high range it runs much better if I push the ebrake forward a little more with my toe. Is that normal or is there an adjustment for that I do not know of?
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:26 am

Your clutch linkage may need adjusting, or the lever may be hitting the floorboard, preventing it from going all the way forward. In either case, the clutch may be slipping until you push the lever forward. Slipping the clutch will damage it very quickly. You need to determine exactly what is going on and remedy it. It's probably a simple adjustment. The lever, the parking brakes, and the clutch are interconnected. Adjustment is not difficult, but trying to decribe it can be confusing.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by John kuehn » Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:34 pm

A quick way to check your linkage adjustment is to run the engine for a few minutes to warm it up.
Shut the engine off. Place the hand brake (ebrake) in straight up position. That is neutral.

With the key OFF turn the hand crank and the car shouldn’t move but you should be able to turn over the engine over. If it won’t something in the linkage is out of adjustment.

Good luck.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by andy2794 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:55 pm

I move the leaver forward and it is not touching the floorboard. I can push it an inch or 2 before it touches the board. I would say the clutch is slipping if I am not pushing on the leaver, ebrake. After it is warmed up I can put it in natural, straight up, crane the engine and the car does not move. Now what?

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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:17 pm

See Page 246 in the Service Manual. If you don't have a copy of "The Bible" you should get it. Any of the Model T parts dealers will have it.

https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG80.html
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:19 pm

I believe your linkage is out of adjustment. There are internal adjustments that can also affect clutch operation. The lever should go all the way forward without being pushed. It sounds to me like your linkage is not allowing the clutch to fully engage, causing slippage. There is a lot of information in various posts on this site about linkage adjustments, and some helpful diagrams. A very good resource is the Model T Service Manual, which is widely available from T parts suppliers and MTFCA. It would be very helpful if you could locate an experienced T person in your area who could look your car over and assist you with any needed adjustments. Mechanics who work on modern vehicles rarely have any idea how to diagnose or work on a Model T, so I would not take it to a repair shop unless you are certain the person who will work on it has Model T experience.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by John kuehn » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:24 pm

Remove the floorboards and watch the linkage as you move the hand brake back and forth.

Do you have the Ford service manual? If you do take a look at the section that describes adjusting the linkage and look at the positioning of the the linkage and the parts involved and compare it with what’s in the manual. The manual is a must for Model T owners and can save you a lot of trouble.

One thing that won’t let the hand brake go forward enough is the adjustments for the two brake rods that are attached to each end of the handbrake shaft. The adjustments are on the brake rods. The clevis ends have to adjusted just enough so the handbrake can go completely forward. That may or may not be your issue and it does work in conjunction with the rest of the linkage.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:26 pm

Go back to the service manual & check all the linkage settings. Your parking brake rods are pushing against the lever ams keeping the lever from going all the way forward. So the cam is partially engaging the clutch arm giving you a partial neutral. This is particularly destructive to a th400 clutch pack. Stock steel disks not so much. You can disconnect both brake rods to bypass this issue eliminate this to square away any other linkage/clutch issues & confirm clutch/transmission function.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by andy2794 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:38 pm

I do have the service manual. I disconnect the hand brake and to goes all the way forward and runs much better. What do you suggest now?


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:16 pm

The handbrake has no direct linkages attached to the transmission to adjust...only the neutral ramp to the high speed clutch and that will not touch when the handbrake is all the way forward.

if the handbrake is not all the way forward, the neutral ramp on the brake lever will start to engage the on the high speed clutch release lever on the transmission. This is because one or both of the parking brake rods are a tad too long and the cams at the rear wheels are rotating too far (past the "off" setting). The springs on the parking brake shoes will try to drive the cams to the "off" setting and with long brake rods, it will pull the handbrake lever back about an inch or so...

adjust the parking brakes per the manual (it will most certainly involve shortening one or both brake rods) and you high gear slippage will go away.
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:24 pm

andy2794 wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:38 pm
I do have the service manual. I disconnect the hand brake and to goes all the way forward and runs much better. What do you suggest now?
So you READ the manual & re checked/adjusted all your linkage? You disconnected the brake rods & everything works, except the parking brakes? Problem confirmed.

The parking brakes should lock the wheels when the lever is all the way back to the seat. There could be excessive slop in your brake cams, bushings, rod ends & or shoes thats causing the extra adjustment to work @ the expense of your brake lever position. Your brake lever should go forward all the way naturally & completely clear the clutch arm. Re adjust the ends of your brake rods to achieve this. It might take some compromise adjusting of the clutch lever bolt to get it all to work.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:40 pm

I would respectfully disagree with the "all the way back for brakes" advice

this much travel to set the brakes will most certainly lead to the cam rotating excessively forward when the brake lever is forward, leading to the spring-back condition.

personally, I set neutral with the handbrake "straight up" and the brakes to set 2-3 "clicks" back from that and no more. Brakes fully and equally set at that handbrake setting and fully release with the cam parallel to the ground when the handbrake is fully forward.

FWIW
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by andy2794 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:14 pm

I disconnected the brake rods & everything works, except the parking brakes. I replaced on both sides new brake cams, brake cam leavers, brake shoe springs (shoes looked OK to me). I cannot adjust the brake rod length any more, I am out of adjustment. If I connect the brake rods the hand brake will not go forward all the way. Please advise.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:26 pm

All rods
'09-'25 are same length... 54 1/8" overall from the tip of the yoke to the end of the threads on the cross shaft end (thank you Dan Treace)

check everything very carefully. You may find that your rods are reproduction and maybe a little long...OR YOU INSTALLED THE WRONG CAM ON THE WRONG SIDE of the car...that is a great likelihood.

When the rods are disconnected, the brake springs will set the CAM to horizontal and the corresponding lever (which is riveted on) should lean BACKWARDs about 15 degrees

TIP: in the future, be sure to mention what work has been performed prior to asking for help with a problem...knowing the precursor conditions to a problem invariably will lead to a quick and correct diagnosis from folks who are not looking at the car.

You'll get past this. Just be careful, drive safely, and have fun...enjoyed your opening photo!
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by speedytinc » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:28 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 4:40 pm
I would respectfully disagree with the "all the way back for brakes" advice

this much travel to set the brakes will most certainly lead to the cam rotating excessively forward when the brake lever is forward, leading to the spring-back condition.

personally, I set neutral with the handbrake "straight up" and the brakes to set 2-3 "clicks" back from that and no more. Brakes fully and equally set at that handbrake setting and fully release with the cam parallel to the ground when the handbrake is fully forward.

FWIW
Yes the "all the way back" is not optimal or normal. Sometimes there is so much slop that thats where the adjust ment takes you untill everything is rebuilt/replaced back to snuff.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by andy2794 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:56 pm

I measured the rods to the end of the treads and it appears to be about 1 inch short. Please advise.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by John kuehn » Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:53 pm

If the hand brake is all the way forward move it back up about about 3/8 to 1/2”. I’m thinking that’s about 2-3 clicks. See if you can hook up the brake rods and see how it drives.

Bear in mind this is just one of what might need to be readjusted. Read you Ford manual closely about adjusting the clutch. Look at the diagram and how the linkage is positioned.

If you do have worn pedal cams, or other worn parts you still should be able to adjust it until the car drives OK. Depends on how worn the parts are. I would stay focused on getting it corrected with the clutch adjustments first.

Do you know the history of the car and what was done to it. Talk to the previous owner and ask how it drove. Some T’s are restored without going through the transmission cover and worn linkage with it.
When you reattached the brake cam levers did you put them back in the same position?
.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:18 pm

Both the brake lever and the clutch pedal should have a small amount of free slack when the lever is as far forward as it will go. The lever should go forward easily to the limit of its travel. It should not need to be pushed. It should easily move backward from the forward position to the mid position. Pulling it backward from the mid position toward the seat should encounter increasing resistance as the parking brakes come into action. The lever should stop short of the seat cushion by about 2", and in that position, the parking brakes should be fully applied.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:20 pm

rods cannot be short AND so long as to push against the handbrake causing it to spring back...that is a "too long" situation for the brake rods, not a "too short" situation

disconnect brake rods again, move the brake lever full forward, and the problem you must solve will be self-evident at the brake/clevis union.
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Sep 24, 2022 10:00 pm

With the brake lever all the way forward, you can adjust the rods to where the clevis pin can be inserted without bending the rod. Start there and then check for even application of the parking brake. If one locks up before the other, tighten the one which is not tight by half turn and check again. Keep adjusting 1/2 turn at a time until the brake stops evenly. With this adjustment the lever should not creep back when you push the left pedal unto neutral. The brake should work and the high gear should stay in gear. The lever is straight up in neutral, or slightly forward of straight up. Neutral the bolt on the clutch lever at the side of the transmission should be at the top of the ramp on the cross shaft.
Norm


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by andy2794 » Sun Sep 25, 2022 4:59 pm

Here is what I did and where I am now. I removed the clevis pins and moved the brake leaver all the way forward. I had to screw the clevises in, about 1 1/2" to hock the pins up again. When the brake leaver is straight up the hand brake is on firm, I cannot push the car. I move the brake leaver forward a couple clicks and it is free. I drove it this way and it appears to run much better, not slipping the clutches. What do you think?
I attached the picture that was sent to me when the previous owner when he bought the T.
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by speedytinc » Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:20 pm

Sounds like you are close. You should be able to un screw the clevis ends a turn or 2 to get your parking lever vertical with a neutral & no brakes. Make sure with the brake lever all the way forward it wants to stay forward naturally. Where you have the adjustment now is acceptable. Your primary concern is for the parking brake lever to stay all the way forward without having to help it stay down.

Adjustment of brakes for even braking on both wheels.
Take her out for a drive. @ a moderate speed pull the parking brakes on. Note the pull & skid mark you just laid. Fine tune your clevis adjustment so that you leave a nice even skid with both tires & are braking in a straight line. Either loosen the darkest skid side or tighten the least skid mark side 1/2 turn. Continue test & adjustment until you have even braking on both wheels while maintaining your vertical brake lever with neutral & no brake activation.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Sep 25, 2022 5:28 pm

Congratulations!

You did exactly what you had to to find the problem, and the problem was exactly what we expected.

you are close enough that some would call it "good" but as John said, it can still stand a little "tweeking" now and being that you are very close, it won't take much. I like neutral to be "straight up" on the brake handle, and good solid brakes being two "clicks" back from that.

at this point, I disconnect one side completely and adjust only one (hooked up) rod until solid brakes 2 clicks back, then disconnect that one and reattach and adjust the other one by itself to have solid brakes 2 clicks back from vertical and then hook them both up and your road test will be very close if not perfect, with the brake lever still wanting to remain all the way forward.

good for you
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by John kuehn » Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:50 pm

That’s great news!
Now you can start unscrewing a turn or two and go from there! That’s how you do it.
Take your time to slowly find a good neutral with the hand brake straight up.

ALSO REMEMBER that when your T is cold or hasn’t been started for a while and even when the hand brake in the neutral it may creep some when first started.
That’s caused because of cold oil. What you can do to help with the creep is to place the hand brake all the way forward. That helps to let the oil out between the clutch discs. If you don’t do that and with cold oil the oil creates a drag between the compressed discs which causes the creep.

If it creeps to much adjust the brake rods a bit more. You can get pretty close but for some T’s it’s kind of tricky to get a perfect neutral. Setting the handbrake forward when parked usually takes care of that.
Good luck.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Sep 25, 2022 6:54 pm

Engine oil that is too thick will turn your Model T transmission into a Dynaflow. A good free neutral depends on correct linkage andjustments and use of a suitable motor oil for operating conditions.

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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by CudaMan » Sun Sep 25, 2022 7:12 pm

I didn't read the whole thread, so somebody may have already mentioned it, but if your emergency brake rods are adjusted too short they can interfere with full forward movement of the brake lever. I use a slightly different procedure from the Ford manual, my method ensures that the brake rods allow the lever to go and stay fully forward in high, while still being short enough to give full emergency braking when needed. :)

https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=4046
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Craig Leach » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:43 pm

I found this issue once on a friends car the park brake levers where down instead of up???
Craig.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by andy2794 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:51 pm

Thank you everyone! I unscrewed the clevis 3 turns on the right side and 4 turns on the left. Now the brake leaver is straight up and in free neutral and a couple more clicks back and the car locks up. Runs better now.
next question. When I come to a hill and have to push the left peddle to make it climb the hill, do I have to pull the hand brake back to the neutral position before pushing the left peddle?
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:57 pm

No, you don't, and in fact could be dangerous to do.

on the other hand, having "low" set to neutral with the hand brake lever, aids considerably in backing up, leaving your right foot free to work the brake pedal and left foot to work the reverse pedal.

now, you need to inspect your ratchet and pawl for good sharp teeth for a safe brake which will not suddenly release and reign havoc on those around it...hopefully that was done during the restoration, but who knows?

very pleased that you have reached a satisfactory conclusion on your high gear slipping issue. And that's a really nice looking car, too.
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:24 pm

If you haven't already done so, learn the correct procedure for starting the car safely, and follow it religiously. If done correctly, starting a T with the crank is safe. Not following correct procedure, every time you start the car, will get you hurt sooner than later. As you have probably already noticed, braking is not up to modern expectations. Learn to use the brakes effectively, and drive within their limits. A Model T can be remarkabley reliable, as long as its needs are met.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by John kuehn » Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:05 pm

Absolutely be be safe when hand cranking your T !
ALWAYS keep you thumb on top of the crank handle and NOT around. Yes you can crank it without doing that but if you forget to retard the spark and wrap you thumb around the handle you will usually wrench your shoulder or break your arm if it kicks back!!

Hand cranking a Model T for a get together or small family crowd is nice and nostalgic but if it kicks back THATS NOT FUN!!!

Txgoat is right to always get the routine down and in mind! And remember to drive as if you don’t have brakes.

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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:57 pm

I broke a wrist with stupid cranking, so I preach often on the importance of safe starting. Here's how: https://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG101.html
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by andy2794 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:45 pm

I replaced the ratchet and pawl. I am 72 years old and was raised on a farm and learned how to and not to crank a tractor, but appreciate all the advise.
I have to drive out the drive way in low because I have to pull a hill before it levels out. Should I put it in high while I am going up the drive way before it levels out?
The car is going to the the upholstery shop in 2 weeks. There is a Mennonite guy that will do all the interior and top for $1800. I am doing the interior red to match the wheels and the top black.
I enjoy driving the car but feel like a 16 year old learning to drive all over again.
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:57 pm

Should I put it in high while I am going up the drive way before it levels out?

It depends on how steep the hill is and how strong your engine is. You can try shifting to high, and if the car starts to bog down mash that left pedal and take the hill in low.
The inevitable often happens.
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speedytinc
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by speedytinc » Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:47 pm

Red upholstery? Makes the interior look like a pizza parlor booth. IMO. Your choice.
Good luck, you are making fast progress.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by DHort » Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:41 pm

Andy

I have to agree with John. A red interior will drop the value of your car significantly. Better to stick with black. You have done a super job with the car so far. Continue practice driving. You will get the hang of it.

The car will tell you if it has to drop in to low. Dont risk braking the crankshaft. Low is slow, but it gets the car there in one piece.

Continue to enjoy it.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Sep 28, 2022 5:05 pm

Low gear is good for about 8 -10 MPH. On level ground, you can shift to high at 6-7 MPH, but on a steep grade, you may have to delay shifting. Letting the engine warm up for 2-3 minutes will help low speed performance. One of the Garmin navigation devices is helpful to have. It's easy to set up a T for one, and you get a clock, odometer, speedometer, and small navigation screen with maps, average speed, top speed, etc.

A stock Model T in good condition will handle most hills if you are already moving 25-30 MPH or so. But if you have to climb a steep grade from a standing start or very low speed, it can be hard to get up speed or keep up speed . The more you drive, the better you will get at handling the car in different situations such as hills. It's necessary to use both the throttle and the spark control to get the best engine performance under different conditions. If you can contact an experienced T driver in your area for a ride-along, it would be very helpful. An experienced T driver can offer tips and advice, and suggest tune-up work, if any is needed. A well-tuned engine and properly adjusted control linkages make driving much easier, safer, and pleasanter. About 40 MPH is as fast as most Ts need to go.


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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by John kuehn » Wed Sep 28, 2022 7:06 pm

Making progress on your T is great and glad it’s happening.
I know getting advice may be getting a little much but T driving tips can be very helpful.

On the road a vehicle comes up pretty quick when your running 25-35 mph or so and a guy behind you was running 50-60 plus! And coming to a stop when somebody is on your tail and your slowing down also. You can’t get going as fast as they can makes some folks give you a squint eyed look when they speed around you.

Have fun and glad your getting things moving along.

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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:47 pm

I am doing the interior red to match the wheels...

Why not reverse that — make the wheels black to match the interior? :D
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Joe Reid » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:10 am

Red interior is different. I have this one which was restored in the 1970’s. When I redo it it is going to be red per my wife.
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Re: learning to drive my T

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:14 am

Joe

what a nice place!
Log homes are special and we love ours, with the exception of dealing with the occasional flicker (woodpecker).
Scott Conger

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