Change Timing Gear

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
John_Aldrich
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:46 am
First Name: John
Last Name: Aldrich
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915, 1923. 1927
Location: Kapowsin WA

Change Timing Gear

Post by John_Aldrich » Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:59 am

I want to replace the aluminum timing with an original steel one.

Is it as simple and pulling off the aluminum gear and pushing on the steel gear?

Is the timing gear "pressed" on? That would make swapping the gear MUCH more difficult.
John Aldrich
Typical Model T Addict


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6431
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:03 am

am curious as to why you'd want to do this?

not a particularly insurmountable job, but can get involved if things don't go your way...what is the effort vs benefit analysis of this job??
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Topic author
John_Aldrich
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:46 am
First Name: John
Last Name: Aldrich
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915, 1923. 1927
Location: Kapowsin WA

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by John_Aldrich » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:12 am

The aluminum timing gear is super noisy to the point that during a 2 day T run last week folks were asking me why my engine was so noisy.
It is obnoxiously loud which is why I want to change it.
John Aldrich
Typical Model T Addict


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:21 am

Does your car have a generator? I suggest that you replace both gears as a set. Timing gears depend on good cam bearings and main bearings to run correctly. Generator drive gear clearance can be adjusted, if necessary.


speedytinc
Posts: 3840
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
First Name: john
Last Name: karvaly
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
Location: orange, ca
MTFCA Number: 14383
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by speedytinc » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:35 am

Did you find a stash of NOS gears? If not, why would you put on a used/worn gear? Are you aware of the gear teeth tolerance/fit? Its real tight, like .002" for iron
If you dont like the aluminum gear, is it because its noisy or clangy due to wear or the necessary looser fit due to expansion?
The best answer, IMHO, would be to get a Dan Mceachern bronze gear. Accurately cut to new specs & low expansion allowing for a tighter gear mesh. .004" for bronze. Available in over & under sizes. (Follows Dan's recommendation.)

To answer your question, the job is rather simple.(see your service manual) You need to pull the radiator, crank pulley & timing cover.
You need a good tool to fit the gear nut. There are a variety, but it must fit tight with no slip to bugger the thin edges.
You may find your crank gear has a lot of wear also. If that needs replacing, the pan has to be separated from the motor which realistically means a motor removal.


Harry Lillo
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:18 pm
First Name: Harry
Last Name: Lillo
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedsters, racers, depot hack, coupe
Location: Calgary
MTFCA Number: 13996

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by Harry Lillo » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:50 am

Do you know if your engine has the original type felt/rope front seal or a modern
metal/rubber lip seal? Removing the front plate presents more challenges with the modern seal.
Remember to center your front plate with a centering tool when reassembling.
Harry

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:27 pm

Wish I'd heard it running last weekend. I remember you mentioning it. Remove the generator and look at the cam gear to verify extreme gear wear - how long ago did I replace it ?


speedytinc
Posts: 3840
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
First Name: john
Last Name: karvaly
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
Location: orange, ca
MTFCA Number: 14383
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by speedytinc » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:46 pm

I think you can see enough of the gear looking thru the oil filler hole on generator motors.


Norman Kling
Posts: 4072
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:03 pm

Be sure to align the timing marks on the gears! If you just put the gear on without that alignment, the engine won't run. My first car was a Model A and it has similar gears to a T. I didn't know anything about aligning the gears and it wouldn't start even coasting down a hill. Just good thing there was an auto garage downhill from me and I parked in front. The mechanic came out to see me and he told me how to do it. I did so right at the curb in front of his shop and it started right up. Then he asked me if I wanted a job. I worked for him several years after school and summers.
Norm

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:09 pm

Can't see much from the oil fill access, John K. - just a bit of the front which doesn't show any gear wear - I believe you need to see the rear thus removing the generator gives a wide view.


John kuehn
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by John kuehn » Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:49 pm

I have an aluminum timing gear in my 21 Touring. When I had the short block rebuilt I was told it could be a little noisy at first and I really didn’t notice it being overly loud. I put the rest of the engine together myself and did install a new generator gear. If it’s louder than it’s supposed to be I also have a brass gear in another T and it’s not louder than that car. This is my assessment of my cars.


GG Gregory
Posts: 295
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:05 pm
First Name: GG
Last Name: Gregory
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 Roadster
Location: Maryville Tn

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by GG Gregory » Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:05 pm

You’ll need to make sure the timing gear cover is properly a-lined with the cam when you reinstall or your timer won’t run true


Tmooreheadf
Posts: 350
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:31 pm
First Name: Tom
Last Name: Moorehead
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Touring, 25 Coupe,
Location: Louisville, KY
MTFCA Number: 22348
MTFCI Number: 18916

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by Tmooreheadf » Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:23 pm

I’ve been running nylon cam gears for about 15 years now. Very quiet. No issues even when running an alternator. Some others have had issues.
Tom

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:43 pm

You could say I've had a nylon gear issue. I was stuck in Trinidad CO for a week after a nylon timing gear in a Chev 350 went south and did a lot of engine damage. Nylon and fiber timing gears are on my no-no list. I believe the best you can do for a Model T engine is a McEachern bronze gear.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


speedytinc
Posts: 3840
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
First Name: john
Last Name: karvaly
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
Location: orange, ca
MTFCA Number: 14383
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by speedytinc » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:29 am

Aluminum cam gears are not all the same. Different alloys. Some are/were relatively soft & anodized a color. There was some in 6061 t6 (good)
Aluminum gears require more clearance depending on the alloy. A long ways back I tested one before an install. Heated in boiling water. The diameter grew .025" So clearance was set @ .012, as I recall. Gear was a bit noisy until the motor got up to temperature. I have been using Dan M. bronze gears since.

User avatar

Mark Nunn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:01 am
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Nunn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Runabout
Location: Bennington, NE
MTFCA Number: 50321
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by Mark Nunn » Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:37 am

I replaced a fiber gear with aluminum two years ago. I could hear the gear, strangely, during deceleration for the first few drives. It has not made the same noise since then. I hear no detectable gear noise. I assume that was a break-in period and I may have had my clearance a little tight.


Topic author
John_Aldrich
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:46 am
First Name: John
Last Name: Aldrich
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915, 1923. 1927
Location: Kapowsin WA

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by John_Aldrich » Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:39 am

RajoRacer wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:27 pm
Wish I'd heard it running last weekend. I remember you mentioning it. Remove the generator and look at the cam gear to verify extreme gear wear - how long ago did I replace it ?
It was the 2nd engine you did for me but it has been 10 years since you replaced it. The longer I run it the more I hate it!
John Aldrich
Typical Model T Addict


Topic author
John_Aldrich
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:46 am
First Name: John
Last Name: Aldrich
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915, 1923. 1927
Location: Kapowsin WA

Re: Change Timing Gear

Post by John_Aldrich » Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:41 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:21 am
Does your car have a generator? I suggest that you replace both gears as a set. Timing gears depend on good cam bearings and main bearings to run correctly. Generator drive gear clearance can be adjusted, if necessary.
Running an alternator now.
John Aldrich
Typical Model T Addict

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic