Inspected car found rust interior to engine

[gtttrobinson]

Hi all,

I was inspecting a 1914 Model T I am interested in buying. I took the cover off the hog's head and found rust everywhere. The car has been sitting for 15 years, full of all fluids (gas, oil, water in radiator), and somehow water got into the crankcase. Certainly changes how much I will offer for the car but wondering if this is recoverable or really means a rebuild. One mystery - how did the water migrate from the water jacket to the crankcase? Will be inspecting further soon.

The gas tank with varnished fuel and an old blue-colored lining coming off. What a mess! What are my options to clean out the gas tank and get that back in service?

Nervous about this car for sure but in all other respects in great shape.

Gerald

[JTT3]

Was it sitting in a climate controlled environment? If not after 15 years of seasonal changes you should expect condensation.
Can you turn the engine 90 degrees over? If so with transmission inspection plate off are the drums rusty, then check 180 degrees. Pictures always help.
Good luck on the purchase

[RonGlowczewski]

Drain the gas tank, remove it from the car, plug the outlet with a pipe plug with thread tape on it, and put about 3 or 4 gallons of 6% acidity vinegar in it. Let it sit for a day or two, shake it around, stand it on either end for a while, prop it on an angle. Then drain it out. May take a couple of treatments, depending on how corroded it is.

Water in the crankcase? Could've seeped past the head gasket into the cylinders just from sitting. These things don't have the tight tolerances of modern engines. There are many points of entry for water. Depends on how this vehicle was stored too. I had about a pint of water in my crankcase oil when I got my car. My rear end was full of water, and my carburetor sediment bowl was full of water too. My car is just a rolling chassis that was stored outside unprotected. Chances are you need a head gasket.

[Norman Kling]

You will most likely need to replace the gas tank and the fuel line. The carburetor might be OK with a good cleaning.
Coolant can leak into the crankcase through many points in the block, head or just from condensation. If the car is in an area with atmospheric pressure changes you will draw some into the engine and crankcase just from weather changes. If your car was near the coast you might get salt air into it which will cause rust.
Depending on whether the rust is just a film or deeply rusted will determine how much work you will need to do. A small film, might just take a few oil changes with some light driving between but is deeply rusted might need to disassemble it and hone everything and maybe even replace some parts. Anyway, if it will run, it is worth more than if it is seized up and won't run. So it depends on the condition of the body and wood how much the car is worth. Because of its age and rarity the early brass cars will cost more even parted out the value of the parts is more. However it is a lot of work to replace the wood and if it is termite or rot infested, you will need to rebuild the entire body even if the sheet metal is still good. Good luck.
Norm

[JTT3]

If you do try and clean the fuel tank with 6% vinegar, once cleaned you need to neutralize the the leached acid in the tank using a small box of baking soda mixed throughly with 10 gallons of water and pour it into the fuel tank and let it sit for a while. Then remove. Flush again. If the tank was rusty, once cleaned and neutralized inspect for any pin holes in the tank. If you don’t you’re setting yourself up for some explosive results. Good luck. Best John

[Norman Kling]

Unfortunately, rust is not the only problem with a gas tank which has gas in it for years. Recently I worked on a car which had been parked for at least 20 years with all the fluids in it. Interestingly there were no leaks in the cooling system and it had rust inhibitor and the water didn't even rust. Still full above the top tank. Changed the oil and engine would run as is. Had to completely clean out the carburetor. However, the gas in the tank and fuel line was like epoxy and had to replace the tank and fuel line. We could have had the tank cleaned at a radiator shop, and it might have worked, but the cost was almost as much as a new tank. So we replaced the tank.
Interestingly the owner said they were on a tour and it made a very loud noise, so they put it into storage. The cause of the loud noise was the exhaust pipe had come off the manifold!
Norm

[TXGOAT2]

Normally, water getting ionto the crankcase on a car that is parked will go directly to the oil pan sump and remain there. The oil will float on top of any water and seal the water off from the rest of the engine. That leads me to suspect that the rust is the result of condensation and perhaps very dirty oil. Even if the car had been run with water-cut oil, I would expect the water to have settled out over time and that enough oil residue would have remained on engine parts to prevent any significant rust under most conditions. A clear picture of what you're looking at would be helpful. Have you loosend the drain plug to check for free water in the oil pan sump? I would do that, and have a clean container and some rags on hand. Loosen the lug and see if water is present, and drain it off to get an idea of how much is present. If nothing comes out, you may need to poke a piece of wire into the drain hole to clear away crud. I would keep the water and any oil or sludge that drains out for analysis and to show the seller. A clean pan that can hold 5 quarts or more is needed. Expect to get some oil on yourself.

[JTT3]

Pat has the right idea, however I’d use the lower Petcock first to drain the less buoyant liquid first. You may need to also clean the orifice out once opened to clear it.

Best of luck John

[John kuehn]

Gerald
You did mention that the T still had water in the radiator. When you checked it did you smell or detect any antifreeze? How MUCH water did you find in the oil. After many years if the leak was really bad you should have lost more water if there wasnt much water in it. Hopefully there was enough anti freeze to keep from having a cracked head or block.

Remove the valve covers and you can see if there was any rust or water behind them.

If the engine will turn over with the crank it may not need a lot other than a head gasket to get it running.

It could be just a minor head gasket leak and that’s it. If it were mine I would pull the head and valve covers and then you probably can see any water leak if any.

Pour some diesel in the engine and crank the engine to clean up the crankcase. Use some WD-40 or something similar to free up the valves if necessary. I’ll bet they aren’t stuck really bad.
This depends on how much water leaked in the crankcase of course. It might mostly be condensation.

Don’t tare it all down yet but try to start it first with a clean gas tank and new head gasket.
It may not be as bad as you think!

And as far as finding rust inside the engine that can happen with consendation with any old engines after they’ve sat up,for many years. That’s not all that unusual.

[Norman Kling]

Before you pull the head, be sure you have a new gasket on hand. And if you do pull the head, be sure to do any work you need to do before you replace the head, because gaskets are hard to find at this time.
Norm

[RajoRacer]

Lang's has a limited number of new copper head gaskets in stock with a bunch more expected soon !