MTFCA Forum

While I’ve been recovering from some medical issues & surgeries. I’ve had some time to think about some next steps on a semi restoration of an early 1910 touring I have. The engine has never run since I’ve had it. The previous owner located it in a warehouse that had been vacant for decades. He never did anything to the engine and if able I’d like to complete a restoration to The drive train. I’m not sure if I’d do much to the body which is very solid however the previous owner did “CLEAN” it up to the point of almost all of the color is gone. I think other than sealing it I’ll do nothing on the body. So with that bit of information let’s get to the main focus & more directly the engine. My thoughts are to pull the engine and inspect it. Then perhaps rebuild the engine depending on what I find. As with most early car folks my first priority is to do no harm as we are caretakers of these vehicles. A few questions, because the 3rd main is one of the week points in the early blocks, would you stay stock on the crankshaft or consider a scat? On one of my 09s the block was babbitted when rebuilt and EE cranks installed. As y’all know the blocks on many 09s there was no babbitt on the block’s 3 main bearing saddles, only the caps had babbitt. Would you replace the stock style pistons for aluminum? Really no questions on the valves. New ones with seats, if needed, would be done. Your thoughts? Thanks John

Howdy John, Most definitely a SCAT. I replaced a good original crank in my ‘14 with a SCAT when I heard it repeated - “its not a matter of IF, its a matter of WHEN”. Coupled that with knowing that a friend’s ‘14 crank broke tearing up his original block. some folks say there’s a ‘sound’ difference between the engine running with cast iron and aluminum pistons. Its also been said there’s a 5 MPH increased speed with the latter.

I owned a 1910. The engine, with the exception of one rod, had never been rebuilt. Mine had no babbitt in the main bearing saddles. I kept the camshaft and timing gears but replaced the crank with one welded up to stock and reground to standard to avoid boring and babbiting the saddles. I also kept the heavy rods with integral dippers, which I had rebabbited, and heavy flat top pistons and wrist pins. Can't remember exactly what I did with the front and center cam bearings but I'm sure I replaced the third. Valves and lifters were replaced. Valves were new stainless steel lifters were NOS Ford. The bronze lifter guides were replaced. Cut the seats with New Way cutters. My goal was to keep the internal parts stock if I could.
The car ran wonderfully. The cam and timing gears unique to pre 1913 Model Ts gave it a lot of low end power. I didn't drive it much over 30 mph but it was an excellent hill climber and quick off the line.
I'd do it the same way given the opportunity.

After the original crank on my '10 broke between #1 and #2 cylinders I replaced it with an EE crank but I would have gone with a Skat crank if they had been available at the time. I went with aluminum pistons and light rods otherwise everything is stock except, of course, for the valves and hardened seats. That was a long time ago and It has not needed anything other than normal maintenance since the rebuild.

Thanks for the feedback so far. My biggest concern is what Val experienced & the possibility of what it could do to the block if it was more catastrophic. The EE crank is supposedly stronger then the earlier cranks and the Scat is of the 3 the most durable, stronger, balanced but it’s much heavier. Add in the weaker 3rd main, would this be an understated concern. In the build I’d include a static balanced transmission assembly as much as one can be balanced. Perhaps I’m being overly concerned however I don’t want the T to be a trailer bound display. If you’d be so kind continue with your advice and recommendations for consideration. Best John

John,
I would open it up and see how far you go down the rabbit hole.

On engines I have rebuilt I used aluminum pistons, lightweight rods, Chaffin's Touring cam, adjustable lifters and of course new stainless steel valves. An original crankshaft will appreciate the aluminum pistons lightweight rods. If an EE crank is available, I would use it. If your pocketbook is lined, (from what I hear) a Scat crank would be an excellent choice. If I were to put that sort of money in an engine, I would want it to be running on babbitt instead of cast iron.

You didn't ask, but I know it is only because you forgot... When rebuilding the transmission I would suggest you put in Dave's new transmission drums too.

As a member of the BDC (broken drum club) and the TPCC (two piece crank club) I now tend to error on the side of caution. Why skimp while you have it all apart and laid out in front of you?

: ^ )

Keith

If you want to drive the car and protect the block, I'd use a Scat crank and aluminum pistons and modern valves. I'd want either Scat rods or lightweight T rods. I'd want full babbit in all crank bearings. Balance everything. That should provide a durable engine with good power and minimal vibration. Minimizing vibration helps preserve the engine, the entire driveline, and the entire car while making more power available to move the car rather than shake it. I'd want compression around 5:1 or so, or close to it. I'd want the ignition system to be in top shape with coils adjusted properly.

Richard I’m curious on the main saddles in the block, was the metal polished? Did you have to bore the cylinders or no? Keith & Pat thanks for the contribution. Supposedly after the first week in November I’ll be able to do some more things without being too cautious. I’m going to pull the engine, we’ll I’m not my brother & nephew will. I’ll be in supervisory role. Can’t wait to see what it looks like. I’ve got a Scat & EE crank in stock so I won’t have to wait on parts no matter which way I go. Pat unfortunately my friend that was working on the Jacobson Brandow coils has passed so I have some insight on whom to send them to once I get a send them too me call. Again Thanks

I wonder what the minimum amount of boring at the main saddles would be necessary to apply babbit. If the block were to be tinned, I'd think very little boring would be needed, if any. In a tinned block, .010 of babbit might be enough. That might allow using a crank with .020 undersize mains and standard size rod journals.

John, the saddles were not polished, but most of the thrust occurs on the caps anyway. They werent in bad shape and the new standard bore crankshaft fit well. I did not bore the cylinders . There was some wear but not enuf to require a rebore. My goal was to retain as much of the original innards as I could and get a good running engine, not to have a perfect engine. The proof is in the pudding and that car ran very well.

Regardless of any internal replacements with suitable modern parts, I would first have the 1910 block crack tested before all else. Close attention should be paid to the rear crankshaft bearing web. These are prone to cracking, starting at the stress riser which is the machined land for the heads of the main bearing bolts.

I know of 4 early blocks which have failed at this point. Often a broken crankshaft has been blamed for breaking the block. The reverse was true in at least 3 of the ones I have seen, the web let go, and the crankshaft went with it.

Allan from down under.

The best choice for a car that is to be driven might be to use a later model block and retain the early block for possible use down the road.

Pat I think you are right about running a later power plant in place of an open valve block. My '10 is by far my favorite car and I use it often. Unfortunately, since dodging the bullet with my two piece crank event I find that worrying about another failure is taking a lot of the fun out of driving it. I am in the process of redoing another later engine for my '10 and plan to swap it out and retire the open valve block so it can be preserved for the next owner. I would love to have a "made up" open valve block to work with so it would at least appear to be correct but that's just not in the cards financially as I don't have the resources to take on a project of that magnitude.