MTFCA Forum

Does it matter how, which direction and what side the Front wishbone and drag link shims go?

I didn't have the money for the spring loaded caps, so hopefully these will do.

JBog wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 20, 2022 9:57 pm

Does it matter how, which direction and what side the Front wishbone and drag link shims go?

I didn't have the money for the spring loaded caps, so hopefully these will do.

I would guess that the placement of the shims would be to protect the part that is the most to find a replacement for, cost too. Of course the APCO style spring loaded are not on the drag link . Prior discussion https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/5 ... 1447325806
Then this says it all

Today's pennies, like so much else, are debased. They aren't worth a red cent. They are not copper. They are some other metal, probably zinc, with a very thin copper plating. If you want an actual penny, you'll have to find an old one. WARNING! DO NOT EAT PENNIES!

Sheet lead, aka "plumber's lead" might make a good shim material.

Shims can shift and lock up, have removed worn stuck shims from old time ‘fixes’. Steering on the T is too important to cobble. Better used parts or reproductions of tie rod ball pitman arm, and caps are available for best repair.

Are they worn that bad? I just file the caps until I get a good fit. Another idea, if they are really bad find other parts.

If the ball portion of the joint is much out of round, it needs repaired or replaced. If the cap portion is somewhat worn, it can be filed to improve fit. A shim is easy to install, but can cause problems. Keeping a shimmed joint well greased would probably prevent problems. Using a tough gasket paper shim smeared with grease might get good results. Attempting to shim or file a badly worn joint is asking for trouble.

I have had good results with thick leather. I can file down the cap to get a better fit, and put the leather in the end of the rod or in the socket in the crankcase. It has some give for a worn ball too.
Norm

It's really unbelievable what some of you guys will do, (and what you would suggest others to do!), to keep from using good/new parts...

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:20 pm

It's really unbelievable what some of you guys will do, (and what you would suggest others to do!), to keep from using good/new parts...

AMEN. This half A$$'d patching of your STEERING SYSTEM is dangerous & @ best temporary. There are very good, permanent repairs that can be done.
More to come. At the very LEAST the balls MUST be perfectly round as a starting point. No mention so far.

Pennies and leather are such a clever idea! My balls aren't out of round, its mainly the caps are worn a little. There's a little low speed wobble I'm trying to eliminate.

How often do you all add grease?

JBog wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:35 pm

Pennies and leather are such a clever idea! My balls aren't out of round, its mainly the caps are worn a little. There's a little low speed wobble I'm trying to eliminate.

How often do you all add grease?

If so, file the caps. Then you are good as new. When the caps get too thin, buy new ones. Do not add some soft filler that will pound out.
Joints should be continually maintained wet. Between pulling caps, I will add a few drops of oil during regular front end lube intervals.

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:21 pm

Pennies minted since 1982 are too soft (mostly zinc). So is gasket paper. I haven't tried leather. Replacement with a better part is best.

So do you want all copper pennies?

Most of my slop is in there.

These are the balls.

JBog wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:45 pm

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:21 pm

Pennies minted since 1982 are too soft (mostly zinc). So is gasket paper. I haven't tried leather. Replacement with a better part is best.

So do you want all copper pennies?

No. no pennies, leather, thin steel, fairy dust, or mommy spit. No shims.
You claimed the balls were round, so a little cap filing is the prescribed fix. Easy, quick & permanent.

Your balls do not look PERFECTLY round in the pix. Optical dillusion?. The way to determine round, is to use a dial caliper all over multiple locations around each ball.

Question in advance for whats coming. Do you have the capability, or a friend to weld a worn ball up & regrind back round?

JBog wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:57 pm

Most of my slop is in there.

PXL_20221020_225022695.jpg

This cap looks to be well worn. If the ball is reasonably round, a new cap should be had.

JBog wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:57 pm

Most of my slop is in there.

PXL_20221020_225022695.jpg

This cap looks to be well worn. If the ball is reasonably round, a new cap should be had.
Due to the minimal movement of the ball, I believe there is more leeway in the allowable out of roundness. Any high point tits would need to be smoothed down.

JBog wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:57 pm

Most of my slop is in there.

PXL_20221020_225022695.jpg

It appears that your studs are backed out considerably, given your need for washers, and still not having the castle nuts engaging the safety wire or the springs compressed very much.

Original APCO caps are plentiful and not very expensive, and replacement parts are available too.

Drop an ad in the "Wanted" section for APCO caps and make a deal with someone.

So do you want all copper pennies?

They have never been all copper.

From 1837 to 1857, the cent was made of bronze (95 percent copper, and five percent tin and zinc).
From 1857, the cent was 88 percent copper and 12 percent nickel, giving the coin a whitish appearance.
The cent was again bronze (95 percent copper, and five percent tin and zinc) from 1864 to 1962, except: In 1943, the coin's composition was changed to zinc-coated steel. This change was only for the year 1943 and was due to the critical use of copper for the war effort. However, a limited number of copper pennies were minted that year.
In 1962, the cent's tin content, which was quite small, was removed. That made the metal composition of the cent 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc.

The alloy remained 95 percent copper and 5 percent zinc until 1982, when the composition was changed to 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper (copper-plated zinc). Cents of both compositions appeared in that year.

Do you have the capability, or a friend to weld a worn ball up & regrind back round?

I could weld up a ball easily enough, but how do you do the grinding part?

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:26 pm

Do you have the capability, or a friend to weld a worn ball up & regrind back round?

I could weld up a ball easily enough, but how do you do the grinding part?

I have weld on balls for sale

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:26 pm

Do you have the capability, or a friend to weld a worn ball up & regrind back round?

I could weld up a ball easily enough, but how do you do the grinding part?

A 90 degree air die grinder with 3" sanding disks & a dial caliper. Take down & smooth the high spots until round & to size all over.
Start with a course disk(40 grit) finish with about 120.

The weld on ball looks like another good option.

Any time I am resizing a sphere, I bore a precise hole in some steel that matches the desired finished diameter. That is your template and you can inspect limitless numbers of "planes" through the sphere in just a moment. It is far easier and more comprehensive than a caliper, though a caliper is certainly a valid measuring instrument for a sphere...just not very handy when dealing with an un-round sphere.

FWIW, no one but Jason knows how much any of those parts are worn, and admonishment that they "must" be brought back to perfect is premature and perhaps even unreasonable.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:37 pm

Any time I am resizing a sphere, I bore a precise hole in some steel that matches the desired finished diameter. That is your template and you can inspect limitless numbers of "planes" through the sphere in just a moment. It is far easier and more comprehensive than a caliper, though a caliper is certainly a valid measuring instrument for a sphere...just not very handy when dealing with an un-round sphere.

FWIW, no one but Jason knows how much any of those parts are worn, and admonishment that they "must" be brought back to perfect is premature and perhaps even unreasonable.

Hole in a plate sounds like a good idea.

If a ball is left worn(not perfectly round) the fit can only be done to the largest section of the ball. As the ball is turned in line with the worn area, there is wiggle or slop the amount of the undersize. Mostly seen with the steering arm. @ either right or left extreme would be the least wear. Thats where clearances must be set or the arm would not be able to swing to its intended maximums. When the arm is set for straight ahead, whatever wear makes for a loose area in the steering system. This is why I recommend, no insist, on a perfectly round ball. I dont like using "must" in most situations, however, respectfully, I think it applies here for a good steering system rebuild/restoration.
A few thousands from "perfect" is acceptable, but, I would not allow any more than .005" out of round.

If one is not capable of repairing the roundness of the various balls involved, most can be replaced with new. The steering arm(this I normally repair), tie rod ball (if replaceable (later tie rods) ( i wouldnt put the effort of repairing this piece unless it was an early brass style, non replaceable ) and the radius rod ball.(this I reweld, but a weld on replacement unit would be a good fix)And due to its minimal travel, perfection is not required as long as it cant slop around in the socket.
Under NO circumstances would I use any shim during a rebuild/restoration, however if a fellow enthusiast needed a patch to get home safely, I could be persuaded, with the promise of a correct repair ASAP.

I am surprised that more folks are not as hardline when it comes to ones steering. Its not just the joy of a well handling T, but a safety issue as well.

APCO caps will bring modest slop to "zero" and if kept greased, the parts will safely and easily outlast the owner

there is nothing sloppy or unsafe about using them with modestly worn parts and frankly condemning or reworking a ball that is just past .005" out of round sounds unnecessarily extreme to me.

Handing some unknowledgeable DIY guy a new radius rod ball fitting and a VEVOR MIG welder sounds far more dangerous than using an APCO cap to me, and yet that is the standard advice given every time this subject arises...without ever asking the poster what his welding skills are or are not...Jason may be a certified Nuclear Boiler welder, but I sure as heck don't know that...

To date, there is only one respondent to this posting thus far that I am aware of, that has ANY idea what amount of slop Jason is dealing with. Isn't knowing just a little bit about the problem pretty much a pre-requisite to offering valid advice on any subject??

The first response from the OP was that his balls were round. The advice was to file the cap a little & good. No shim needed.

Later pix were provided. May be optical, but I see a good deal of wear. Yes, only OP can measure & provide the #'s My contention that the balls must be round still holds for the reason I tried to explain.

Regarding APCO caps. OP mentioned not having the money.

On a personal note, I dont use APCO's. Intuitively I wonder about bump steer & the small area of the plug contacting the ball & possibly creating an odd wear pattern. I would certainly use them over any loose shims. I dont have much experience with them. I dont condemn them.
The idea of ZERO slop from constant spring tension sounds like a good option & relatively cheap. Long haul, I dont know.
I still believe restoring to oem is the best answer. Probably not for everyone.

What It comes down to, is here's my opinion, OP can do what he wants. Hopefully others will learn something valuable. Take it or leave it.
No hard feelings here.

"How often do you all add grease?" IF YOU DIDNT DO IT YESTERDAY TODAY IS THE DAY.
Craig.