MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:13 am**

Picked up what I think is a Morton and Brett speedster. Does anyone have a Morton and Brett radiator? Been reading, seems there was a run of Polyform bodies made years back, and there may have also been a run of radiator shells made? Does anyone have any pictures they could share? Were the shells made to fit over a model T radiator (found a picture of one with a modified neck). Thanks!

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:15 am**

Thoughts? The cowl is why I think it is Morton and Brett, even though the tail looks Faultless.

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:51 am**

In the 1970’s I built a speedster with a Polyform Morton Brett body and they came with a Polyform copy of the Morton Brett radiator shell. I used a stock T low radiator fitted to the shell and the radiator fit ok as I remember. In the picture you show of the radiator and shell, it looks like a Whippit, car radiator, they were used on many speedsters back in the 1920’s. There are pictures of my white painted Polyform Morton Brett speedster in the 1976 Vintage Ford covering the MTFCA national tour to Catalina Island that year. In the picture of your speedster on the trailer it looks like a Morton Brett body to me because of the shape of the boat tail.

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:51 am**

You have a very special speedster project as that looks like a original Morton Brett body. Have fun with your project.

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:52 am**

here i a link to detailed documentation on Morton & Brett with lots of pictures
http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/m/morton_ ... _brett.htm
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The front radiator looks like a Whippet - wonder what the rest of this speedster looks like (headlights bucket match?)
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/8 ... 1258814478

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:08 pm**

Sharp looking speedster !

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:38 pm**

Some more info
In this report notice that there is no hole for a gas filler cap (doesn't mean that much)
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... ld.220655/

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In another discussion includes your discussion in HAMB about your purchase and more pictures
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... 655/page-2

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How do these areas match? MB is still unconfirmed as a Morton & Brett need to follow that thread

: compare cowl.jpg (72.21 KiB) Viewed 13799 times

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:04 pm**

Morton Brett from poliform made by Dick Williams.

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:13 pm**

Hello,

I got some photos of a body and radiator I posted a few years ago here:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1470345860

If you would like a photo of something more specific let me know. I have it stored in the next town over but Im heading that way tomorrow.

If you get a chance, could you post some photos of the wood construction of your body. I'm have been trying to figure out in my body what wood is original and what was replaced.

Thank You Steve

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:48 pm**

Blauvelt, Does this photo look familiar ? Don't remember when or where it came from as it's been in my computer for years.

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:18 pm**

Just FYI the first year of the Whippet automobile is 1927.

Ed aka #4

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:40 pm**

Mike, thanks for posting!! No, to bad the hood was lost. There are holes for a windshield. Figured the car had been around, not really a mystery. Just new to me.

Mike Penserini wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:48 pm
model-t-ford-speedster.jpgBlauvelt, Does this photo look familiar ? Don't remember when or where it came from as it's been in my computer for years.

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:42 pm**

Thanks Ed, the chassis is pre '26/27, engine and rear are '26/27. Have a complete '16 that is going into the speedster.

YellowTRacer wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:18 pm
Just FYI the first year of the Whippet automobile is 1927.

Ed aka #4

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:49 pm**

That is stunningly nice. Would you have a side profile of the radiator? Interested in the the top side profile. Is it rounded or a flat slope back? Thank you.

Dollisdad wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:04 pm
Morton Brett from poliform made by Dick Williams.65D49245-0153-4FD8-91F2-D2BD8DB8C19C.jpeg651DC3CD-134D-420E-8DC7-634CA6651BCF.jpeg543F42D2-2764-4424-BEA7-60452A2A3C69.jpeg

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:58 pm**

Mike Penserini wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:48 pm
model-t-ford-speedster.jpgBlauvelt, Does this photo look familiar ? Don't remember when or where it came from as it's been in my computer for years.

Looks like the same car

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:41 pm**

Here ya go Doug, side pic.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2022 8:34 pm**

babychadwick wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:58 pm

Mike Penserini wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 22, 2022 2:48 pm
model-t-ford-speedster.jpgBlauvelt, Does this photo look familiar ? Don't remember when or where it came from as it's been in my computer for years.
Looks like the same car

Yup, no doubt its the same car. Wires don't lie

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:11 pm**

Hello Doug,

Does your car have These Lima Co brackets on it?

Also found a period photo of a possible Morton Brett radiator car with the Lima Co brackets on it.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2022 11:56 pm**

I had a Morton & Brett overhead long ago. It was 8 valve single intake with manifolds and cover. The cover said Morton & Brett with "Indianapolis" going diagonal. The valves were "boyle" and didn't have a taper seat but were flush in the combustion chamber. It was a very nice head but went off to Toronto as part of a deal on a Mercury speedster.

The guy who got it is no longer alive but if you want to try to chase it email me. Long shot but I have chased things all over the country with a surprising amount of success.

Tim Moore
Mooreti (then the at symbol) msu (then a dot)edu

I don't do private messages

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:41 pm**

Thank you very much!!

Will try and update progress...or lack there of is made.

Dollisdad wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 23, 2022 7:41 pm
Here ya go Doug, side pic.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:43 pm**

Possibly? The fronts are extremely decayed, the rears much less so. Break down won't start for a few weeks. But they certainly look like those.

slang250 wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 23, 2022 9:11 pm
Hello Doug,

Does your car have These Lima Co brackets on it?

Also found a period photo of a possible Morton Brett radiator car with the Lima Co brackets on it.

Posted: **Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:08 am**

YellowTRacer wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 22, 2022 5:18 pm
Just FYI the first year of the Whippet automobile is 1927.

Ed aka #4

I've been wondering was the original whippet radiator nickled or chromed . . .

Posted: **Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:30 pm**

Nickel plated.

Ed aka #4

Posted: **Thu Oct 27, 2022 8:42 pm**

Lots of speedster stuff still floating around. A few years ago I picked up this original Morton and Brett windshield frame, seller said it was too narrow to be a car windshield and believed it was for a motorcycle side car.

Posted: **Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:12 am**

Been perusing the interwebs and have seen drawings of various styles of Morton and Brett radiator (shells). Were these actually made? Like the drawing of the single man body with the more pointy top? The drawings / advertisements being a far more optimistic of what the real out come was.

Posted: **Sat Apr 08, 2023 10:21 am**

Assuming my reading is correct, MB licensed their body to different manufactures, who add their own touches?

Posted: **Sat Apr 08, 2023 1:38 pm**

Here is a picture of the precursor body to the Polyform version referred to above. The Polyform bodies were sprayed up with a chopper gun and are quite heavy as a result. The one below and about 15 additional bodies were produced previous to the Polyform bodies. The Polyform mold was made off of one of these bodies. These precursor bodies were hand laid gelcoat/fiber mat construction and were much lighter. These bodies were the brainchild of a pretty amazing engineer in SoCal by the name of Willie Chambers. Willie scaled the plug used to make the original molds directly off of the patent drawings, so they were as accurate as those drawings. The originals were made around 1975. As I recall, the car in the picture below ran in at least two Long Beach Hill Climbs and was (and still is) powered by a BB Rajo. The wheels are 21" #3 Buffalos. I owned several of these bodies at one time and the last extra one I had now lives up in Idaho.

Posted: **Sat Apr 08, 2023 6:46 pm**

There is a fiberglass mold for a Morton & Brett body here in Portland, Oregon, at least I think it is still here. Not sure of the status on it, but as far as I know it was last used 20+ years ago. Made a nice body, hand laid, and looked good. Not too many people doing hand laid fiberglass on the scale of a speedster body these days. If there is someone who is doing such work in fiberglass, it would be nice to see a couple more M & B speedsters! / Tim

Posted: **Sat Apr 08, 2023 11:52 pm**

I have a 1927 Whippett radiator and shell surplus to my needs if anyone is interested.

frontyboy 2ho6-1949) text or call

Posted: **Mon Apr 10, 2023 9:39 am**

Do you know if they have the radiator shell mold?

Speedsterguy2 wrote: ↑
Sat Apr 08, 2023 6:46 pm
There is a fiberglass mold for a Morton & Brett body here in Portland, Oregon, at least I think it is still here. Not sure of the status on it, but as far as I know it was last used 20+ years ago. Made a nice body, hand laid, and looked good. Not too many people doing hand laid fiberglass on the scale of a speedster body these days. If there is someone who is doing such work in fiberglass, it would be nice to see a couple more M & B speedsters! / Tim

Posted: **Mon May 29, 2023 12:53 pm**

Some wood pictures, see if I can resize some more.

slang250 wrote: ↑
Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:13 pm
Hello,

I got some photos of a body and radiator I posted a few years ago here:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1470345860

If you would like a photo of something more specific let me know. I have it stored in the next town over but Im heading that way tomorrow.

If you get a chance, could you post some photos of the wood construction of your body. I'm have been trying to figure out in my body what wood is original and what was replaced.

Thank You Steve

Posted: **Mon May 29, 2023 2:39 pm**

Doug- just a thought- after I discovered that Tom was building his Morton Brett project and saw the hood that he made for his car, I had him make me a hood for mine. I strongly suggest you contact Rootleib and have them make you a hood if you don't have one for your car. Just something to consider.

Posted: **Wed May 31, 2023 9:39 am**

Thank you Dan. I'll give them a call!

Also included some more pictures. The car was moved with a fork lift, so the valence panels were just a crumpled mess. Worked them out by hand to see what was left. The sill plates and a few feet are probably salvageable. The rest is just for patterns.

Dan McEachern wrote: ↑
Mon May 29, 2023 2:39 pm
Doug- just a thought- after I discovered that Tom was building his Morton Brett project and saw the hood that he made for his car, I had him make me a hood for mine. I strongly suggest you contact Rootleib and have them make you a hood if you don't have one for your car. Just something to consider.

Posted: **Wed May 31, 2023 9:57 am**

The original dash was built out of slats, then flat "nails" were used to secure the bits together. Any familiar with the exhaust and intake set up? It isn't A.

Posted: **Wed May 31, 2023 11:02 am**

Model B manifolds.

Posted: **Wed May 31, 2023 11:11 am**

B intake.
A exhaust modified with a flange.

Posted: **Wed May 31, 2023 11:25 am**

Flange? The plate at the back is tapped into the head and supports the gas pedal. Thank you for the help!

Better picture.

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Wed May 31, 2023 11:11 am
B intake.
A exhaust modified with a flange.

Posted: **Wed May 31, 2023 11:59 am**

blauvelt wrote: ↑
Wed May 31, 2023 11:25 am
Flange? The plate at the back is tapped into the head and supports the gas pedal. Thank you for the help!

Better picture.

speedytinc wrote: ↑
Wed May 31, 2023 11:11 am
B intake.
A exhaust modified with a flange.

Flange...

: Flange.png (281.35 KiB) Viewed 11375 times

Posted: **Sun Oct 22, 2023 7:29 pm**

Finally found a good useable T radiator, so i played around with the valence panels and started cutting out a shell for mock ups.

Posted: **Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:52 am**

This car has a copy of a Morton and Brett Radiator shell. Made by hand, copied from an original. They used Model T radiators with an extension of about 2.5" on the filler. I have what I believe is an original shell in my shop. I will try and post a picture tomorrow.

Posted: **Mon Oct 23, 2023 9:54 am**

Thank you for sharing the picture. Next step is to build the lower part of the shell mock up and then I'll start on the forehead. Looking at yours it looks like it has more "pinch" than the black one posted earlier. For the top round, i just freehanded a radius.

JSteele wrote: ↑
Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:52 am
This car has a copy of a Morton and Brett Radiator shell. Made by hand, copied from an original. They used Model T radiators with an extension of about 2.5" on the filler. I have what I believe is an original shell in my shop. I will try and post a picture tomorrow.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:27 pm**

Larry Sigworth thought this is probably an original Morten & Brett Radiator shell. Museum of American Speed has has a M&B Speedway which I looked over closely and took some measurements off of but it's been 15 or 16 years since I did that. It has a correct radiator shell, but I don't know if it's original and don't remember the fine details. My brain absorbed everything back then, but now it will not release that information, should have wrote more down and taken better pictures.

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:30 pm**

Couple more

Posted: **Tue Oct 24, 2023 3:59 pm**

Looks like a 1927-1928 Whippett radiator shell. These are amongst the most popular radiator shells used on Model Ts.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:21 am**

Forget trying the valance with cardboard, use poster paper. Much better to work with.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 10:16 am**

Thank you very much Mr. Steele. Will study.

My current idea is to effectively cut the top off a stock T shell, leaving the sides, lower valence, upper/cross part of the shell at the top of the core and the mounting brackets. It will leave a much larger forehead than original. I don't have the ability to do the 3D curve for the top, so it is a compromise. Eventually I'd like to have a proper copy made.

Can you share some about the white bodied car you were building? The curve at the top of the seat looks very pronounced. Seems that Disteels are the wheel choice for Morton and Brett!

JSteele wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 24, 2023 1:27 pm
Larry Sigworth thought this is probably an original Morten & Brett Radiator shell. Museum of American Speed has has a M&B Speedway which I looked over closely and took some measurements off of but it's been 15 or 16 years since I did that. It has a correct radiator shell, but I don't know if it's original and don't remember the fine details. My brain absorbed everything back then, but now it will not release that information, should have wrote more down and taken better pictures.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 11:09 am**

I'd be inclined to keep the Whippet radiator & shell since it looks like it radiator has been on the car for a very long time... maybe since the car was built?

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:09 pm**

I happen to know where there are some Disteel wheels and hubs. Also brand new Whippet Radiator that really cools well.

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:40 pm**

Hard to beat a Whippet shell for a racer/speedster !

Posted: **Wed Oct 25, 2023 9:31 pm**

Realized I haven't posted many progress pictures...

106" wB, 6" engine set back, Warford, Disteels.

JSteele wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:09 pm
I happen to know where there are some Disteel wheels and hubs. Also brand new Whippet Radiator that really cools well.

Posted: **Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:54 am**

Don't know, what are your thoughts from the below?

Derek Kiefer wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 25, 2023 11:09 am
I'd be inclined to keep the Whippet radiator & shell since it looks like it radiator has been on the car for a very long time... maybe since the car was built?

Posted: **Sun Oct 29, 2023 11:16 pm**

Next go at the shell, have a roller, but can't do a compound curve. Played with trimming and shaping the top part. Forgot that there was a great side profile in this thread. So back to at again next weekend.

Posted: **Sun Oct 29, 2023 11:25 pm**

blauvelt wrote: ↑
Sun Oct 29, 2023 11:16 pm
Next go at the shell, have a roller, but can't do a compound curve. Played with trimming and shaping the top part. Forgot that there was a great side profile shot on this thread for reference. Back at it next weekend.

Posted: **Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:06 pm**

Just saw this post on Facebook, one of the radiator for sale has what appears to be a Morton and Brett badge on it. It doesn't look like any shown on this thread earlier.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/183233695 ... tid=NOb6eG

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:08 pm**

Started tearing into the engine, looks nice and stock. Someone did pistons at one point.

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:29 pm**

Someone put 0.40 over aluminum pistons in it, adjustable lifters, and nice head. All in all a nice stock T. No clue what is up with the crankshaft, assume some sort of pastie weights?

Posted: **Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:15 pm**

Look like Dunn counterweights on the crankshaft. Or likely reproductions made sometime in the 1960s or since. They were originally produced in the 1920s, and fit only the earlier style "diamond" throw crankshafts. Later, the design was altered to fit the rectangular throws of the 1925 and later crankshafts. Reproductions have been made of both styles, and I think a third "one size fits all" casting at various times in the hobby.
You may want to check out how well they were fit onto the crankshaft. They should be very carefully fit, and ground to match against any specific crankshaft because forgings actually vary considerably from one crankshaft to another. They need to fit properly against the crankshaft throws so that the special hardened bolts can be tightened extremely tight so that the weights cannot even begin to shift around in any way at all. And they also need to be properly fit so that the heavier casting of the weights when tightened do not actually cause a slight bend in the crankshaft. Even the slightest bend in the crankshaft can cause the crank and bearings to beat each other apart. (People think that adding the weights can't bend the crankshaft, but they actually can!) AFTER the crankshaft and weights are properly fit, then have the assembly dynamically balanced. Some people have recommended doing one pair of weights on the crankshaft, then balancing them. Then do the other pair, and then have them balanced again.

Posted: **Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:05 am**

Thank you Wayne, I'll pay close attention to them and share what I find (hopefully nothing abnormal).

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 04, 2024 9:15 pm
Look like Dunn counterweights on the crankshaft. Or likely reproductions made sometime in the 1960s or since. They were originally produced in the 1920s, and fit only the earlier style "diamond" throw crankshafts. Later, the design was altered to fit the rectangular throws of the 1925 and later crankshafts. Reproductions have been made of both styles, and I think a third "one size fits all" casting at various times in the hobby.
You may want to check out how well they were fit onto the crankshaft. They should be very carefully fit, and ground to match against any specific crankshaft because forgings actually vary considerably from one crankshaft to another. They need to fit properly against the crankshaft throws so that the special hardened bolts can be tightened extremely tight so that the weights cannot even begin to shift around in any way at all. And they also need to be properly fit so that the heavier casting of the weights when tightened do not actually cause a slight bend in the crankshaft. Even the slightest bend in the crankshaft can cause the crank and bearings to beat each other apart. (People think that adding the weights can't bend the crankshaft, but they actually can!) AFTER the crankshaft and weights are properly fit, then have the assembly dynamically balanced. Some people have recommended doing one pair of weights on the crankshaft, then balancing them. Then do the other pair, and then have them balanced again.

Posted: **Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:47 am**

Made headway, spent some time with the YouTube watching hammer and dolly videos. Made a few passes at the cowl, which is now decidedly more flat where it should and rounder where applicable. Got the radiator mounted. Had a fellow model T person come by and provide modeling services, time to pull the trigger and lengthen the body so I fit...unless there is someone under 5'7" on the forum who has a serious moral disagreement with slicing and dicing and wants a Morton and Brett for themselves.

Posted: **Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:37 pm**

made the first part of the lower valence. Rolled the sheet metal around a dowel rod. Also added eyeballs.

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:23 pm**

First try at the front valence panel. Working on putting the beaded edge on a long curve. The original has an additional 3 folds to create a vertical lip which the bottom of the hood can be secured against. May try that on the next attempt. Who knew adult origami was this much fun.

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:34 pm**

Nice thread on this speedster. I think I have a Morton and Brett aluminum windshield frame. Alvin Townsend very graciously cast and machined one for me about 7-8 years ago. If I recall correctly he told me that it was the last one he would do if he found the time. About a year have he told me this I got a call and he had one done for me. It is machined to accept safety glass.

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2024 8:49 pm**

Thank you, there are some good speedster posts going right now. Been fun to see all the original speedster bits that guys are sharing.

Mike Lebsack-Iowa wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:34 pm
Nice thread on this speedster. I think I have a Morton and Brett aluminum windshield frame. Alvin Townsend very graciously cast and machined one for me about 7-8 years ago. If I recall correctly he told me that it was the last one he would do if he found the time. About a year have he told me this I got a call and he had one done for me. It is machined to accept safety glass.

Posted: **Sat Mar 30, 2024 11:03 pm**

GREAT THREAD!

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MTFCA Forum

Morton and Brett speedster build

Morton and Brett speedster build

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