MTFCA Forum

This is the engine pan access plate on a 1912 I am working on. I have to say, I have never seen these bolts safety wired before. A lot of work went into this! Is this "stock" or a custom job? I am guessing custom but am learning something new every day on the early brass T's. Unfortunately, I need to remove this plate as the engine is frozen up so it hurts somewhat to destroy that safety wiring work of art.

It's stock for some 7 rivet pans. By that I mean the holes in the heads of the bolts. I assume they were for safety wires.

You may be able to get the engine free without removing the pan access. Is it stuck from sitting, or did a breakdown occur? If it stuck while sitting unused, the problem is almost certain to be one or more pistons stuck.

Ridiculous! Use thin copper brake washers.

Person musta been a former A&P in a previous life !!!

Gregory-
Yes indeed it is absolutely ORIGINAL with the introduction of the inspection cover in 1911. And beautifully done, too.
Be sure to notice that the edge of the inspection cover has a recessed edge, about an inch wide. This is a detail that is often overlooked on early cars.
It is the same as on mine. Here it is on Phil Mino's (RIP) car (missing the wire):

Is there a reinforcement "bulge" at the and of the pan, too?
: ^ )

Keith

TXGOAT2, the engine is stuck from sitting. It was rebuilt by the previous owner ten or more years ago and never fired. I pulled the head and the cylinders look beautiful with the honing hatch marks still present. I have been soaking them in 50/50 ATF and acetone. The ATF/acetone mixture seeps through pistons 1, 3, and 4 overnight but not piston #2 which makes me suspect it is the stubborn one. I am letting it soak for a while longer (couple of weeks anyway) and go from there. It is an original 1912 block with engine number 86XXX. Plan B, I am thinking, would involve opening the inspection plate on the pan, disconnecting #2 piston first, gently tap it up out of the bore with a piece of wood, try turning it over, and if still not budging, remove another piston. Hopefully it will free up before piston #4 but you know how obstinate these Model T's can be. Probably new rings would be in order if I do remove the pistons.

Waste of time to me. To each his own.

The "safety wire" used on early pans with inspection plates is totally correct and original. This is a fine point that is often overlooked when 1911 and early 1912 Fords are restored. The inspection plate is also unique in that it has a "ridge" going around the plate where the bolts are placed and the oil sumps are more pronounced and a bit deeper. You may notice that I installed reinforcing plates between the engine and transmission cover for strength (These plares are covered by the engine pans.) Here are a few photos of my 1911 Torpedo engine. I hope this helps, Russ Furstnow

RajoRacer wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:36 am

Person musta been a former A&P in a previous life !!!

I sure hope who ever did it wasn’t an A&P! They didn’t do it correctly!

Great information, thanks everyone. I learned another "detail" about my 1912 car. My intent is to make this car as bone-stock original as possible, so learning this detail is very helpful. Now, if this 1912 was my daily driver back in the day and I needed to open up that inspection plate, I imagine I might not have re-wired those bolt heads especially since Ford did away with wiring them in later cars. But in the restoration world, little details like this matter. Now, to work on getting the engine unstuck without disturbing that beautiful wiring job.......

I wouldn't think it is severely stuck or damaged, unless moisture somehow got into it. Letting it soak with the lube/penetrant is a good idea. Putting the car in high and rocking it forward and backward might help free the engine. I'd do this with the plugs in, to prevent an eruption of penetrant if the engine should move. Applying air pressure to any cylinder with the valves closed, with a few ounces of the penetrant in it, may be helpful, expecially the one that does not seem to leak fluid past the piston. If it frees up and moves a little, after checking to be sure each valve is free to move, I'd move the engine backward and forward just a little by rocking the car with in gear, gradually increasing the range of movement until the engine revolves freely with the crank.

OK, I confess I am a dumb country boy, so please tell me what an "A&P" is that you are referring to. I am guessing aircraft mechanic....

HA!

Ed, I was thinking the same thing. At least it appears he had the correct tool, though!

As far as copper washers: Do your homework!!

man, twice in two days...I feel like I hit the jackpot

I wouldn't know Ed - I'm not an Airframe & Powerplant mechanic !

I believe i have 1 or 2 of those rod inspection plates hanging on a nail !

A&P stands for Airframe and Powerplant. Someone who is a licensed aircraft mechanic will have both Airframe and Powerplant licenses to legally return an aircraft to service under FAA regulations.

That settles it: this 1912 engine is not airworthy!

If you are concerned about originality, the way the bolts are wired originally should be considered also.
The way & type of wire this cover is wired with looks extra fancy to what Ford would have done.

I would be interested in knowing how they were wired originally.

I would bet that a single strand of brass wire run through all bolts and then twisted like a twist-tie on bread. There are a number of other, similar places where this was the case originally and I doubt that anything more involved would have been done

Greg,

I can't tell you for a fact how Ford wired their inspection pan bolts, But I can tell you that there are well documented instructions for correctly safety wiring airplane parts. Whether the airplane guidelines really do apply to automobiles is probably up to you.

The aircraft guidelines govern the size of wire, type of wire, number of twists per inch of the two wire strands, maximum number of bolts to be tied in a string, and correct direction of wires at bolt heads.

Many of those guidelines are probably trivial, but the correct direction of the wires is quite important. As you run the wire through each bolt head, you should arrange the direction of the wire so that the tension of the wire tends to tighten the bolt, not loosen it. If you check your pan wire, I believe you will find the first three bolts on one side string to be backwards. Ditto for the first two bolts on the opposite side.

To test the direction of your finished job, put your imaginary wrench on each bolt head and turn the bolt as to loosen it. Turning the head to loosen the bolt should tighten the wire Or, looked at it from the perspective of the wire, the correct direction will be when the wire tension wants to tighten the bolt.

Don't feel badly about a backward safety wire job. After thirty years as a certified aircraft mechanic I still find I've done it backwards from time to time.

One other thing. As I recall, the maximum number of bolts wired in a string is usually three. Too many bolts wired together may fatigue the wire and make it too brittle. Also, it's a lot easier to unwire fewer links if you find an error in your work.

Wonder why Ford stopped using safety wire and bolts a year or so later. Maybe he had a better idea!

And here's me thinking A&P was something like anal and paranoid! I too believe that Ford was not likely to have safety wired like that. A single wire through all and a twitch at the end would suffice.

Allan from down under.

I guess I am dating myself, but before today, the only A & P I had ever heard of was: The Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company. A Model T Era institution, if there ever was one.

My grandmother would shop "The A&P". They had whole roasted coffee beans in glass front bins and a big electric coffee grinder in one aisle. You, or an attendant, would take a printed paper sack and hold it under the spout and the fresh ground coffee would pour into the sack. The machine made a lot of noise and the aroma was great. If I recall correctly, they had 2 or more types or "roasts" of beans.

I agree with Allan. I don’t think Ford would have spent much time with the safety wire when it was being done at the factory. Are there any surviving photos of 1913 Fords with the safety wired pan bolts?
I don’t go to Model T judging contests but is it considered important enough to count? I will say though that the wired inspection pan cover gives the engine a neat antique looking touch.

And here’s the A&P that I recall. We had a store here in town but it closed several years ago.

The Seventh Edition MTFCI Judging Guidelines state for the 1911 crankcase:

"Single piece design with no inspection cover. Arms (T-815) were secured with seven rivets. Removable cover with embossed edges appeared around April 1911. Some cover bolts were drilled for lock wire. Oil drain was the "tea cup" style and drain plug was the slotted style."


For the 1912 crankcase, it says:

"Removable bottom design with seven-rivet support arms and teacup style drain with slotted plug."

No mention of embossed edges or lock wire in early 1912.

John kuehn wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:39 pm

Wonder why Ford stopped using safety wire and bolts a year or so later. Maybe he had a better idea!

TIME! too much time! And we all know time is money, especially ol' Henry knew it!!

Perhaps the factory left the wire off, and a dealer would install it after the new car had been run in and any adjustments made.