Page 1 of 1
Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:06 pm
by Algonac27
So I purchased a 1913 touring it seems to have a over steer problem. So when you turn the steering wheel all the way to the left at the sharpest left turn the tires start to go right. Drag link is correct for the year and I see no major issues. Now if the car is up on a jack it doesn’t do it any tips???
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:28 pm
by ThreePedalTapDancer
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:16 am
by TXGOAT2
All Model Ts have reverse caster and toe-in when backing up. That, combined with a very fast steering ratio, makes them unstable when backing up at any significant speed, even when no wear issues are present. When backing up in a T, keep speeds very low, keep a firm grip on the steering wheel, and avoid turning the wheel all the way to left or right lock. Be especially careful when backing up on rough ground. When moving in reverse, rather than tending to go straight, the front wheels on a T will tend to turn all the way to lock. I avoid turning the steering wheel all the way to lock whether going forward or backward. It's rarely, if ever, necessary, and invites trouble, especially on the older model cars, or one with wear issues. It's a good idea to find a large, smooth, clear area and practice backing up a Model T. It can be un-nerving for the uninitiated. It need not be dangerous, as long as the car's behavior when moving in reverse is understood and respected.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:40 am
by TWrenn
TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:16 am
All Model Ts have reverse caster and toe-in when backing up. That, combined with a very fast steering ratio, makes them unstable when backing up at any significant speed, even when no wear issues are present. When backing up in a T, keep speeds very low, keep a firm grip on the steering wheel, and avoid turning the wheel all the way to left or right lock. Be especially careful when backing up on rough ground. When moving in reverse, rather than tending to go straight, the front wheels on a T will tend to turn all the way to lock. I avoid turning the steering wheel all the way to lock whether going forward or backward. It's rarely, if ever, necessary, and invites trouble, especially on the older model cars, or one with wear issues. It's a good idea to find a large, smooth, clear area and practice backing up a Model T. It can be un-nerving for the uninitiated. It need not be dangerous, as long as the car's behavior when moving in reverse is understood and respected.
Seems as though Mike (Algonac) is referring to forward steering problem?
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:46 am
by TXGOAT2
I avoid turning the steering wheel all the way to lock, whether going forward or backward. It's rarely, if ever, necessary, and invites trouble, especially on the older model cars, or one with wear issues.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 9:57 am
by John kuehn
Jack the front end completely off the ground and turn it normally. Then turn it quickly and sharply hard to the left and then to the right. You might can tell if something is giving if it’s moved hard and heavy that way.
Something may show some wear or giving. Just a thought.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:01 am
by TXGOAT2
Even the late style Model T's don't have much to prevent overtravel in the steering. Hitting a bump when backing up with the wheels turned sharply can deliver a very hard shock to the steering system, perhaps enough to damage the pin/groove arrangement in the steering box or bend some parts.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:33 am
by Norman Kling
I wonder if the length or angle of the pitman arm might be the cause? It seems to me that if it is too short it could go over center. A longer arm would push the wheels farther in the direction you wish to go, but stop before going over center. Another thing would be the length of the drag link. With the correct parts, and the wheels pointing straight ahead, the pitman arm should point straight down. If it goes to one side or the other your drag link is the wrong length.
Norm
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:45 am
by Craig Leach
Hi Mike,
Not doing it on the jack is because there is less resistance of the wheels turning. While its on the jack( jack stands) First check king pins,
wheel bearings, tie rod ends, drag link joints, pitman arm & bushings. Then turn the wheels to straight. then turn all the way right and
count the revolutions. then go back to straight and count the turns all the way to the left. If they are not the same ( or close to it) and
everything is tight. Then something is not centered. The draglink ( even if correct for the year) could be to short or bent, the pitman
arm is to short or bent or the steering shaft is twisted. I have seen people struggle with this before and have seen a adjustable draglink
made to cure it. In a possible situation this could prevent you from turning the wheels back to straight with terrible results. It is also on
some tour safety inspections and will prevent you from participating.
Craig.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:50 am
by TWrenn
After reading his post over and over I see nothing about it locking up. Just some weird random way it starts to steer back to the right after a sharp left. Now I wonder if the same thing happens if he turns sharp right, does it start to turn to the left? And indeed is it doing this "on its own"? I would check for toe-in, caster and camber.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:51 pm
by TXGOAT2
I wonder if any kind of noise accompanies the reversal? Could the gears and pins in the steering box be worn enough to allow slippage under pressure? That could allow the wheels to try to return to center. I'd think it would make a distinctive noise.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 1:53 pm
by TWrenn
Another interesting possibility!
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:40 pm
by Algonac27
Terenn. Obviously if you keep turning to the left it will eventually stop when the pitman arm rolls over to far
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:41 pm
by Algonac27
TWrenn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:50 am
After reading his post over and over I see nothing about it locking up. Just some weird random way it starts to steer back to the right after a sharp left. Now I wonder if the same thing happens if he turns sharp right, does it start to turn to the left? And indeed is it doing this "on its own"? I would check for toe-in, caster and camber.
The pitman arm will eventually stop if you keep going to the left when it rolls over
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:51 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
After going extreme left, the pitman arm goes over center and begins to pull the drag link back, making it begin to steer right again. It's a dangerous situation that needs to be corrected.
The problem is either the length of the pitman arm, the length of the drag link, a worn limit groove within the gear case, or some combination of all 3. Pitman arms and drag links were not all the same length through Model T production. It's a very common issue to have an incorrect drag link or pitman arm.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:52 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
Algonac27 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:40 pm
Terenn. Obviously if you keep turning to the left it will eventually stop when the pitman arm rolls over to far
The pitman arm has already rolled over too far, or this would not be happening.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:55 pm
by Algonac27
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:51 pm
After going extreme left, the pitman arm goes over center and begins to pull the drag link back, making it begin to steer right again. It's a dangerous situation that needs to be corrected.
The problem is either the length of the pitman arm, the length of the drag link, a worn limit groove within the gear case, or some combination of all 3. Pitman arms and drag links were not all the same length through Model T production. It's a very common issue to have an incorrect drag link or pitman arm.
Would you happen to know the correct length of the pitman arm? I’m 100% positive it’s the correct drag link
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:23 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
Algonac27 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:55 pm
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:51 pm
After going extreme left, the pitman arm goes over center and begins to pull the drag link back, making it begin to steer right again. It's a dangerous situation that needs to be corrected.
The problem is either the length of the pitman arm, the length of the drag link, a worn limit groove within the gear case, or some combination of all 3. Pitman arms and drag links were not all the same length through Model T production. It's a very common issue to have an incorrect drag link or pitman arm.
Would you happen to know the correct length of the pitman arm? I’m 100% positive it’s the correct drag link
Mike,
I'm sorry, I don't know the correct length for a '13. It has been discussed previously on this forum however. Maybe a search will turn up your answer.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:37 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
Check out this thread...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32385&p=249406&hili ... th#p249406
Also, drag link lengths. (Taken from a 2014 Forum posting by Donnie Brown.)
early cars till 9/19/14 30.687 (30-11/16)
9/19/14 till 10/19/14 30.687 (30-11/16) to 30.750 (30-3/4) A tolerance for manufacturing purposes is the reason for two measurements
10/19/14 till 10/2/17 31.062 to 31.125
10/2/17 till 5/19/19 30.938 to 31.062
5/19/19 till start of Improved Models (Aug 1925) 30.312 to 30.438
Start of Improved Models (Aug 1925) till 10/7/25 31.125 to 31.250
10/7/25 till end of production 30.812 to 30.875
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:47 pm
by Bruce Compton
Mike; There are at least three different lengths of drag links and if you have the wrong one your steering will go over center. Te easiest way to check it by looking at the pitman arm when the front wheels are in the straight ahead position. The pitman arm should be absolutely straight down (vertically) from the steering shaft. If it's not, you need to find a drag link that will place it there (either longer or shorter), but in your case the drag link is obviously too short.
Re: Help 1913 Touring steering issues
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:47 pm
by Altair
Check that the spring Pearches are not transposed, the odd number is the left side, and the even number is the right side. You wouldn't notice the difference by just looking at them, but the steering will be wild.