Speculation on the lurching...?

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Gen3AntiqueAuto
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Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:23 pm

So something is grabbing the engine at random. It happened in this video and the run to the cemetery. hand brake on, watts or turbo clutch in it (forgot what I put in that one). Anyway - here's a scary (for me) run down the street with something wrong with the steering. I've already fixed it on camera so that will most likely be in the next video...
I thought maybe it was the low band but the brake was on (good thing). Happened going from rev to brake in the cemetery (week or so ago video). Something in there is grabbing hard. Runs fine drives fine, just random dead stopped engine.

https://youtu.be/YPgnmWDKRZQ
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by speedytinc » Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:40 pm

So, what have you done recently mechanically before your issue started? Transmission rebuild, band change, or what?


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:56 pm

Hand brake on = "neutral". I'd think if something is intermittently trying to stall the engine while in "neutral", it must be clutch related, like a lug shoe breaking up or a lined disc separating pr a cracked or broken steel disc. A lurch that happens going down the road in high could be a timer wire shorting to ground and firing the engine out of time. Could a wallered-out triple gear pin or pins cause it? What about a cracked drum snagging a band? Magneto winding shredding? Oil line funnel getting chewed up? Piston trying to seize? Broken ring?


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:03 pm

I suspect the problem is in the transmission. Most likely the high speed clutch. When they get worn, they tend to lock up because the disks catch on the inside of the brake drum causing it to either stay in neutral or in gear. The watts or jackrabbit clutch will also be subject to wear if you slip it to release like you would do a modern stick shift. Best way to use the clutch is to go from neutral into low. You need to get the idle high enough so it will not kill the engine and then depress as fast as you can into low with the minimum amount of slippage. hold firm until ready to shift to high. Then as you pass neutral you quickly reduce the throttle so the engine speed will be about what it would be if you were in high, then let it quickly out into high and pull down the throttle to accelerate to the speed you wish to drive. Too much slippage of the low will overheat the drums causing cracking or will wear out the bands quickly. Likewise in high slippage will overheat the disks and especially those softer disks of the modern type will wear out more quickly than the original disks. Other adjustments are replacement of low speed notch and cam which can keep the low from engaging or causing the bands to drag when in neutral. Or improper adjustment of the clutch fingers or the link between clutch pedal and clutch lever at the transmission which will either cause the clutch spring to not compress which will leave in high or to compress too much leaving it in neutral or slipping. See other posts on low speed notch and also on adjusting for a free neutral. Even a bent pedal can put things out of adjustment.
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by George House » Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:35 pm

Tim,
... I enjoyed your video of a short fall foliage road trip in your Fordor. But I couldn’t help but notice your spark and gas levers were fully retarded during the entire trip. I see you shift speeds with a KC Warford. Do you have a foot accelerator ? Any overheating problems? (Retard spark)
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by speedytinc » Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:56 pm

So to make sure I understand your symptoms. With the parking brake on hard, something grabs & the engine stalls. In neutral something grabs & the car lurches forward as if you stomped low pedal.

The problem is out of the blue with no recent transmission work.

You have a shaft locking a bushing.

Specifically, if I have accurately described your symptoms, its the low drum bushing locking on your brake/clutch drum/driven gear shaft.
Reason being, the shaft has developed a spiral break starting in one of the driven gear key holes allowing it to open(like a tube of crescent rolls) & tighten enough to randomly lock low drum as if the low pedal was applied. I have seen this condition several times in stock T's. I have no doubt that running a warford can exacerbate this breakage by the added strains induced.

This was the same cause for a beautiful restored 14 roadster to lurch forward into another beautifully restored touring.
Previous minor grabs were ignored. As the spiral crack advanced, so did the violent lock up.
Ringing a bell?

Ill add, you cant see the damage like a cracked drum, but, you should notice a bunch more brass dust in your oil.
Hint: another confirmation/diagnostic tool.


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:44 pm

wow, great response, hard to reply to all but here goes.
spark/gas levers - disconnected. I modified the 009 to match the needs of the engine. Retarded at idle, snappy advance on throttle. yes I love the kc warford, makes it sound like a model a in 2.

what have I done recently - I've charged the battery and added fuel. I've done nothing to it since 2008 but drive it and write articles on it for SOSS, Vintage Ford, T Times...

oil / brass - I'm going to read what you wrote again cause I'm slow sometimes to grasp but good idea on the "test" - I'm not entirely understanding what you wrote about the spiral crack - yet. The only parts in there that are yellow are the bronze bushings, I believe you wrote "shaft" so I'll have to read it again when done here.

As for the clutch locking up. Here's the thing. It's done it before. I hit the brake in the cemetery and killed the engine. I was backing up when it happened. Watch - https://youtu.be/pY7sUr8ZvsU

It's done it rolling forward low to brake pedal, while backing up rev to brake pedal, now no pedals involved - short term cure is warford N before starting!! And probably should change the oil. It's been 14 years and thousands of miles. Probably due.

That ride also showed me something is wrong with the steering, that video is coming out Monday if anyone is interested.

Can't see the original thread while posting a reply so if I missed something - throw the question up on youtube for me. Easier...

I REALLY dont want to have to tear this down again!
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:00 pm

time to change the oil and look for broken brake drum lug shoes in the strainer or sump.
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Adam » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:36 pm

John nailed it. Broken driven gear shaft. I’ve seen it maybe about 8 times and in all but one case they were all from ‘26-‘27 transmissions. The 1 earlier case it was a repro cast narrow drum, so no telling what year the shaft was. This is a diagnosis of experience. Unless someone has worked on a ton of T transmissions, they’ve probably never seen or heard of the issue.

By the way, I didn’t watch the video. Just going by what’s posted here.


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:47 pm

Adam/John

if you guys are correct, then I think it's the second one in as many months...I seem to recall a posting about this exact failure just recently though I'll be darned if I can find it now.
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:25 am

What you are saying is the shaft attached to the brake drum has broken off? :roll: You might want to watch the video.

Adam wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:36 pm
John nailed it. Broken driven gear shaft. I’ve seen it maybe about 8 times and in all but one case they were all from ‘26-‘27 transmissions. The 1 earlier case it was a repro cast narrow drum, so no telling what year the shaft was. This is a diagnosis of experience. Unless someone has worked on a ton of T transmissions, they’ve probably never seen or heard of the issue.

By the way, I didn’t watch the video. Just going by what’s posted here.
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Dan McEachern » Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:43 pm

My guess is a triple gear bushing that is seizing up.


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Adam » Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:04 pm

Unlikely that the shaft is “broken off”. They generally fracture in a spiral that initially stays partially together and sometimes randomly expands and/or contracts when engaging low or reverse which seizes inside of the low bushing or on outside of trans shaft & kills the engine like the motor is locked up.


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:15 pm

Dan McEachern wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:43 pm
My guess is a triple gear bushing that is seizing up.
This would have been on my list if there had been a recent transmission overhaul. A not so recent rebuild might lead to a bushing that expanded in service.(heard of this issue in the past with reasonably clearanced bushings initially.)
The claim is lots of miles since any work done.

As Adam describes, the shaft doesnt break off, it splits in a spiral fashion, expanding @ seemingly random times locking up low internally , tightening in the bushing & shaving brass.
Also Adam, you remind me, I have only seen this on wide brake drum shafts. Must be from the extra braking strain.
This fits the "lurching symptoms"

Speedsterproject. Does your tranny have a wide drum, shoed clutch drum?
This I ask because of the new possible clutch locking symptom mentioned which is more likely, but not excluded in a non shoed drum. The clutch not giving its best neutral or not locking well in high is a symptom of the disks hanging up in 6 the outer disk protrusions. More common in a non shoed drum.
Either problem is bad news requiring a teardown.

Neither problem can be seen thru the inspection cover.

If reverse continues when the reverse pedal is up, that is a sign of the pedal not retracting all the way. Possibly from a weak return spring or a chunk of something between the band & drum causing continued band engagement. Same when in low to neutral or high when it behaves as if low is still applied. That could be a chunk of a shoe which will tear up the drum. I had this very problem once.

Of course, pull the cover & check for very tight or very loose tripple gear bushings, band condition, drum being cut & a good visual/physical inspection for excessive or uncharacteristic slop. Nothing to lose, you might get lucky.

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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by JTT3 » Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:36 pm

Could be your triple gear post have wallowed out in the flywheel holes causing the issue. Reverse and low are the only time they are engaged but may very well be your issue.
Just an opinion. Best John


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:10 am

Dan McEachern wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 12:43 pm
My guess is a triple gear bushing that is seizing up.
Guessing that too - do you remember this car? I've thrashed it for thousands of miles.
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:12 am

Ok - I have made a follow up video for you all. That ride showed the lurching but it also showed a problem with the steering. So in this "episode" - I show how to check the alignment on a Model T. If you want me to keep going, I need subscribers and views. There are 112 Model T videos on there and I am making more weekly.

https://youtu.be/rMfnr5AVYc0
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:12 am

Ok found this thread again, thanks for the pointer. I checked the oil and I did not find bronze in it. I did find something though. I'm leaning towards the triple gear theory above, not the spiral crack theory. IDK - I can't remember it happening in low, just reverse pedal. That would pull the assembly backwards away from the flywheel wouldn't it? Possibly tilting the triple gears? EVERYTHING was brand new from 2007 in this engine. And everything was the top of the line as well. No corners cut on this one. I originally built it to sell but then I cracked a low drum in the original engine and in my car it went about 3 days before I left for Indiana in 2008.

Oil change, inspection, what I found on the magnet in this video: https://youtu.be/zX94LINIYHk
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:44 am

This video thing is looking like "click bait".

Bottom line, you're not going to diagnose it, and certainly not going to fix it, until you take it apart.


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by speedytinc » Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:11 pm

Annoying "click bait". 4-6 advertisements per video.
Not playing that game to make someone money in hits.
I dont pay to give advise.

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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Mar 23, 2023 12:19 pm

TheSpeedsterProject wrote:
Thu Mar 23, 2023 9:12 am
Ok found this thread again, thanks for the pointer. I checked the oil and I did not find bronze in it. I did find something though. ........
Oil change, inspection, what I found on the magnet in this video: https://youtu.be/zX94LINIYHk
Here is what he found in the oil. I'd drop the inspection pan, there may be more things to find there...
Attachments
oil find.png
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Thu Mar 23, 2023 5:40 pm

Ok we'll keep it here for less confusion - I honestly forgot I wrote this thread last year. What you see on film is how much I have driven this since "the dark times". That's it. It sits in my garage with the temptation of a for sale sign in my head (guess not anymore). The compression is down from day one, I assumed that rings/cyl was the grey matter on the magnet. It IS possible that the triple gears hit the flywheel I suppose - the pins were brand new replacements from Bob's in 2007 - was there an issue with them? If so I never heard of it and I was restoring these professionally from about 2005 all the way through 2012/2013. Replaced 100's in that time frame from the same source. I saw no bronze in the oil and I replaced those too so it would have to be "bronze wore down the pins"? Hard to imagine that...

Yes - tearing it down would probably reveal the actual problem but here come the buts (and a rant because someone just p'd me off)!

1 - I can't get head gaskets anymore for the overhead valve conversion and I am using my only spare now. That car without the overhead was a snail. Jern died - are there options?

2 - I would have to take out EVERYTHING under the hood and it's all "custom" and will be a major chore to remove (steering shaft, ext). Have you gotten a good look under there? yikes...

3 - I have had the zeal for the hobby figuratively beaten out of me through several years of "domestic" abuse. My life and my T restoration business was intentionally destroyed out of rage, spite, and revenge. Their goal was "to get rid of me" aka drive me to suicide and they tried HARD. "but I'm feeling much better now" :) I'm only doing the videos so the knowledge I have isn't lost, it's not fun anymore.

4 - If I were to pull this engine I would rather build another, A crank maybe, Prus head - and just swap them. That MIGHT be fun. Bidenomics says I can't afford to buy the parts.

5 - The video links one of you was griping about are the absolute best way for anyone to remotely look at something that someone is talking about, all that is missing by doing it this way is the smell. Or do you all prefer I ask about the "long pointed thing that goes around the brown thing and looks like it might be hitting that other thing to the left" when I post a question - or a well lit 4k video showing what I am talking about in great detail? I'd prefer the latter on every question here. We can't post a 6 gigbyte video file here. It needs an outside host - which is why I started the youtube channel 16 years ago. I used it for customers to sign off on work done here prior to shipping because shipping was $400 or so at the time for just the engines. Can't imagine what it is today.

But thanks to you (name forgotten already) for not watching them. Lets clear the air, Mr. Fellow Club Member that I would help if you were in need:

Yup - I'm killing it over here with "click bait". So let's break it down using today's stats off youtube and socialblade: I spend 8-10 hours of my time per 15-20 minute video using $4k worth of equipment and software and I earn $3.04 per thousand views. The last few Model T videos I have uploaded, the average was about 175 views each. In the last 28 days my youtube income (sadly, my only income now) was $9.09 on all of the 493 videos I have made over the last 16 years combined. Let's define "click bait" while we are here - a link with the promise of one topic (i.e. Model T's), that brings you to an unrelated topic (i.e. porn). Formerly called "bait and switch". Did I do that here? NO.

I've been making Model T videos FOR YOU AND FUTURE HOBBIESTS - there is no global audience craving Model T videos like crack in LA beyond this club. ZERO. I could move on to something that will get millions of views and make me some real money - like running into a wall over and over with a helmet on or playing a stupid shoot everyone video game on screen-record. Boat videos are very popular lately AND WAY MORE FUN. Seriously - it costs you nothing and you get to see Model T stuff (your passion / your hobby) up close - but no, F Tim says that guy, "I won't watch specifically because he might get paid $0.00001 for my view"? Club members should be SUPPORTIVE to each other. -end of rant :evil:

Back to the actual topic. I was really hoping the lurching was something super simple I was overlooking, reach in and tighten ____, but it appears it is not. Thank you for your time and replies.

Oh - Several of you asked me to make another transmission video. I'm filming one now. This time it is how to restore and assemble one and I am starting with a literal boat anchor. Maybe I can guess what to expect in "Lurch" while this one is on the table? :roll:

I'm building this next transmission for the 27 long block that no one wants to buy. If you're interested in buying the assembled engine, write me fast - the options of mag/no mag/computer balancing is on the table.
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Mark Nunn » Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:27 am

Tim, there are times when even decent people have bad days and say unkind things. Don't let it get you down or stop you from contributing to the hobby.


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:09 pm

Just read the comment that set me off yesterday again "I don't pay to give advice" was it? Exactly how much is this guy being charged to click on a youtube video? $0 - he won't pay it! What the......!
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:38 pm

So, have you gotten any further into your engine/transmission issue?


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:12 pm

Just spent some time editing and watching the footage I took the other day over and over.

Watch this a few times - https://youtu.be/_JLgh5oLjQQ - and tell me what you think. This was part of another video but thought you all would prefer a "get to it and get on with it" version so I made this one just now. I know - it'll cost you a million dollars per view cause that's how free video hosting sights work....somehow...

My Observations on the problem so far:

1. Only happens in reverse
2. Only happens at idle
3. Stops the engine cold
4. Does not happen while starter is engaged - spins freely
5. Does not happen for the first 4-8 revolutions with the engine running vroom-vroom-bang
6. Does not happen with the warford in neutral
7. Has only happened with the warford in 1st (so far)
8. Nothing gets "locked up" when it happens - car rolls freely
9. Appears to throw the car forward - or is this just rocking from stopping dead while moving in reverse?

Did I miss anything?
Gen III Antique Auto - we do Model T Ford Restorations

You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want -Zig Z.
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Gen3AntiqueAuto
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:36 pm
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Foye
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 Fordor, 15 speedster (2), 23 touring, 26 fordor, 25 TT
Location: Middleborough MA
MTFCA Number: 292
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:34 pm

edit - happens in N and R - I forgot my feet were off the pedals in bangs #2 and #3.
Gen III Antique Auto - we do Model T Ford Restorations

You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want -Zig Z.
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TRDxB2
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:15 pm

TheSpeedsterProject wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2023 4:12 pm
Just spent some time editing and watching the footage I took the other day over and over.

Watch this a few times - https://youtu.be/_JLgh5oLjQQ - and tell me what you think. This was part of another video but thought you all would prefer a "get to it and get on with it" version so I made this one just now. I know - it'll cost you a million dollars per view cause that's how free video hosting sights work....somehow...

My Observations on the problem so far:

1. Only happens in reverse
2. Only happens at idle
3. Stops the engine cold
4. Does not happen while starter is engaged - spins freely
5. Does not happen for the first 4-8 revolutions with the engine running vroom-vroom-bang
6. Does not happen with the warford in neutral
7. Has only happened with the warford in 1st (so far)
8. Nothing gets "locked up" when it happens - car rolls freely
9. Appears to throw the car forward - or is this just rocking from stopping dead while moving in reverse?

Did I miss anything?
Are you saying you put the Warford in 1st while moving in reverse and that stops the engine cold, or am I missing something?
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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TXGOAT2
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:25 pm

"Does not happen with the Warford in neutral"....


Points to transmission/clutch/u-joint... u-joint pin? clutch spring retainer pin? U-joint coming apart?

"Only in reverse" (with Warford in Low only, or Warford in any gear?)


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Gen3AntiqueAuto
Posts: 390
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:19 pm

yeah I forgot the two "no feet" bangs when I wrote that. Someone said the T-400 clutch can get gummy - next step is solvent/lube I guess - after the modern truck gets fixed cause that broke today - flexplate I think. :(
Gen III Antique Auto - we do Model T Ford Restorations

You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want -Zig Z.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeROBg ... pB-KImprjw


Topic author
Gen3AntiqueAuto
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:36 pm
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Foye
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 Fordor, 15 speedster (2), 23 touring, 26 fordor, 25 TT
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MTFCA Number: 292
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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Sat Jun 24, 2023 11:47 am

Video updates on the "lurching" situation.

I added something to the oil that I should have put in it when I changed it (I forgot):
https://youtu.be/vt-7qpaozcM

This is primarily focused on the broken jeep but it's the first time I moved the car since adding the fluid. Drove it out and back in again and filmed it to see if the fluid I added fixed it:
https://youtu.be/_PmZuGg3TsE

The weird thing is it does it nearly every time in the same spot backing out of the garage - 1/2 way through the door.

I'll be getting back on the 27 engine on the stand soon for anyone interested in that build.
Gen III Antique Auto - we do Model T Ford Restorations

You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want -Zig Z.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeROBg ... pB-KImprjw


Topic author
Gen3AntiqueAuto
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:36 pm
First Name: Tim
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* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 Fordor, 15 speedster (2), 23 touring, 26 fordor, 25 TT
Location: Middleborough MA
MTFCA Number: 292
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Contact:

Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Mon Jul 03, 2023 4:31 pm

Gen III Antique Auto - we do Model T Ford Restorations

You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want -Zig Z.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeROBg ... pB-KImprjw


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Re: Speculation on the lurching...?

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:21 pm

See my video for response
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured

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