MTFCA Forum

My Dad was raised in upstate Minnesota in the 30s and early 40s. One of his favorite stories was about my Uncle Ed and the family’s Model T.

The way the story goes, was that Ed somehow got a Model A transmission and installed it in the T as an auxiliary transmission. Under normal circumstances, the car operated as designed but when taken out on the backroads (any other kinds in upstate Minnesota in the 30s?) it was the fastest thing in the area.

I could never figure how a dual transmission would increase speed. Gears low enough to pull stumps, yes. Figured it was just one of “those stories” told after too many Christmas Day beers in the garage with all the adult males.

This last week, I ran across a post where the OP talked about installing a Model A transmission BACKWARDS making it a DOUBLE OVERDRIVE! OK, now that story makes sense!!

All this begs the question, how long would that A transmission last running in that configuration?

Tom
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How long is a rope ?

Love the story. Back about nineteen-ought-sixty four, when us kids had patched together our first running model Ts, an old-timer stopped to comment "We had a Model T like that. Put a Chevy transmission in it backwards. It'd go a hunnert mile an hour !" We thought he was full of beans. Now it's a cherished memory, and we know better ! (Still ain't tried it myself ! )

Way back when I was working on my first model T speedster, I went to one of the (then) big swap meets in California which always (then) had tons of model t stuff! There a fellow had a 1920s Chevrolet transmission that had been set up that way very nicely. The was output was nicely modified to mount onto the back of a model T engine/transmission. The first/reverse slider and idler gears had been removed and the shifting fork cut off with the slider shaft blocked off and locked in place. The was input end was altered slightly and a special U-joint made up to connect to the model T driveshaft. Clearly made up to be a very high gear overdrive for a model T!
It was really neat, and I wanted it. However the fellow thought he had real gold there, and I was just out of high school and on a tight budget. He wanted $40 for that overdrive. About four booths down from him, I bought a real model T Muncie in excellent condition for $25. It was much more practical. Good Muncies and Warfords were commonly available for $20 to $30 in those days.

Gearing up that much, roughly a one to two overdrive, is tough on the gear train and the engine. There is a considerable loss of torque and power which eventually shows up in excessive wear on the gears, bearings and shafts. However, with the right road conditions, and a strong enough engine? It would be a lot of fun for quite some time!

I have often thought such an overdrive could be a cheap alternative for a low geared TT.

Another element to this “double overdrive” would be the ability to drop the differential gears from the standard 3.63 to 4.00 or less. Of course consideration would also need to be given to gear spacing so as not to be rowing through the gears.

The 2nd OD would be crazy high to the point of being unusable … along the line of 300%. The first OD would be some 200%. Transmission selection my also be a “thing”.

Tom
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You could go very fast... down a long steep hill, or with a 40 MPH tail wind. You'd solve the issue of running out of RPM capability, but you'd still be short of enough horsepower to go much over 50 MPH with a stock engine. A slick speedster with about 45 HP could probably get up to a pretty respectable speed on a long flat stretch with no headwind. Maybe it's a mod intended for a midget racer with smaller wheels. 24" OD wheels would get you back within a reasonable gearing range with a hot engine and a cut down, streamlined car.

The down side of all this is how do you stop the thing? 3:1 diff ratio in an otherwise standard T severely compromises the brakes. I guess if you do this mod, stopping is not part of the equation.

Allan from down under.

Rich P. Bingham wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:20 pm

How long is a rope ?

That brought an unexpected memory. Having heard something similar, I once asked my grandfather, "How long is a piece of string?" His answer was, "How Long is a Chinaman." (Probably politically incorrect these days, but on the other hand, isn't everything? )

Dick ;Deze uitdrukking [How Long is a Shina Man ] werd bij ons ook gebruikt .
Groeten uit Holland.
Toon

"I need a load of 2 x 4's"
"How long?"
"How long, what?"
"How long do you need them?"
"Pretty long.,,I'm building a house and don't plan to return them"

35 Ford trans originally in backward behind a counterbalanced drilled t crank, roof head, etc . . . Picture circa -roof, degraded to rajo -crank, degraded to stock T but I believe the trans hadnt been degraded to the ruckstel yet

Where exactly in Minnesota did your father grow up?

Erik Johnson wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:17 am

Where exactly in Minnesota did your father grow up?

Erik, he was raised on a farm outside of Holy Oak.
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babychadwick wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:52 am

35 Ford trans originally in backward behind a counterbalanced drilled t crank, roof head, etc . . .
send2.jpg
Picture circa -roof, degraded to rajo -crank, degraded to stock T but I believe the trans hadnt been degraded to the ruckstel yet

Oh, that just looks too cool!

And I also happen to have a complete 1935 rolling chassis!
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Rich P. Bingham wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:20 pm

How long is a rope ?

Love the story. Back about nineteen-ought-sixty four, when us kids had patched together our first running model Ts, an old-timer stopped to comment "We had a Model T like that. Put a Chevy transmission in it backwards. It'd go a hunnert mile an hour !" We thought he was full of beans. Now it's a cherished memory, and we know better ! (Still ain't tried it myself ! )

The jump from T-direct to OD is big one. Need to work on that.
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Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 5:24 pm

Way back when I was working on my first model T speedster, I went to one of the (then) big swap meets in California which always (then) had tons of model t stuff! About four booths down from him, I bought a real model T Muncie in excellent condition for $25. It was much more practical. Good Muncies and Warfords were commonly available for $20 to $30 in those days.
…
Gearing up that much, roughly a one to two overdrive, is tough on the gear train and the engine. There is a considerable loss of torque and power which eventually shows up in excessive wear on the gears, bearings and shafts. However, with the right road conditions, and a strong enough engine? It would be a lot of fun for quite some time!

I have often thought such an overdrive could be a cheap alternative for a low geared TT.

Definitely would be an “open road” gear.
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TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 5:58 pm

You could go very fast... down a long steep hill, or with a 40 MPH tail wind. You'd solve the issue of running out of RPM capability, but you'd still be short of enough horsepower to go much over 50 MPH with a stock engine. A slick speedster with about 45 HP could probably get up to a pretty respectable speed on a long flat stretch with no headwind. Maybe it's a mod intended for a midget racer with smaller wheels. 24" OD wheels would get you back within a reasonable gearing range with a hot engine and a cut down, streamlined car.

Nothing off the table at this stage. Lots of planning and considerations still need to take place.
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Allan wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:01 pm

The down side of all this is how do you stop the thing? 3:1 diff ratio in an otherwise standard T severely compromises the brakes. I guess if you do this mod, stopping is not part of the equation.

Allan from down under.

My Uncle probably didn’t give much thought to stopping.
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Given the propensity for a Model A trans to jump out of 2nd gear under load, and that 'under load' on a reversed box would mean on the overrun with the footbrake on in a Model T, such a setup would have the potential for an interesting ride!

In terms of applying power the useful 'box ratios are around 1.8:1 for 2nd gear, and 3.1:1 for top, giving an overall transmission ratio of 6.7:1 and 11.3:1 respectively (assuming a 3.6:1 final drive) ... I wonder how long Uncle Ed actually ran this for - seems to me it might be ok on a mild downhill run with the wind behind, but anything approaching normal would probably be a bit much and you'd be back to 'top'. Whatever the outcome it certain showed ingenuity and would have been a cool modification back in the day

Luke.

Luke wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:33 pm

Given the propensity for a Model A trans to jump out of 2nd gear under load, and that 'under load' on a reversed box would mean on the overrun with the footbrake on in a Model T, such a setup would have the potential for an interesting ride!

In terms of applying power the useful 'box ratios are around 1.8:1 for 2nd gear, and 3.1:1 for top, giving an overall transmission ratio of 6.7:1 and 11.3:1 respectively (assuming a 3.6:1 final drive) ... I wonder how long Uncle Ed actually ran this for - seems to me it might be ok on a mild downhill run with the wind behind, but anything approaching normal would probably be a bit much and you'd be back to 'top'. Whatever the outcome it certain showed ingenuity and would have been a cool modification back in the day

Luke.

Never heard that part of the story, but knowing my Uncle I’d say tearing up the local roads was a short term endeavor.
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Holyoke Township (note the spelling).

In the 80's we were manufacturing horizontal earth boring machines that used the 3-speed Borg Warner T-96 transmissions (Chevrolet's design). Borg Warner quit producing them, so I had a manufacturer in Syracuse, NY build one. I lent them my Model A transmission and they reproduced it to the exact dimension. They are available today from Autogear. http://www.autogear.net/wp-content/uplo ... ission.pdf

Brad Van Meter wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:32 pm

In the 80's we were manufacturing horizontal earth boring machines that used the 3-speed Borg Warner T-96 transmissions (Chevrolet's design). Borg Warner quit producing them, so I had a manufacturer in Syracuse, NY build one. I lent them my Model A transmission and they reproduced it to the exact dimension. They are available today from Autogear. http://www.autogear.net/wp-content/uplo ... ission.pdf

Wow, that's impressive!

Erik Johnson wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:02 pm

Holyoke Township (note the spelling).

That would be it!
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