MTFCA Forum

My center door engine number doesn't match the registration. I just bought it out of state and the CHP officer said I needed to find the cars vin number. I'm not sure it has one other than the engine so maybe someone here can help me on where to look.

It could be that the original engine was changed over time. After 100 years it’s not surprising that it could happened. The engines would interchange since they would fit.
What is the no. on the engine that’s in it now. That will tell you if it’s a different T engine and what year it is. Once you get the current engine no. you can go to the engine data information that’s on the encycleopedia that on this website.

Our 1920 Center Door has no number on it anywhere other than the engine number. Our 1920 TT doesn't have any numbers other than the engine number either.

I suggest you research on the MTFCA web site to find the exact location of the VIN numbering system and when it changed to numbering the frame and engine with the same number. Then you'll have documentation to show the Officer. He may or may not like the online source so it may be a good idea to purchase the book and take it with you.

Good Luck,
Terry

As I recall Ford went back to putting the number on the frame something like Dec. 1925.

Ford didn't "go back" to putting the engine number on the frame. That was never done before December 12, 1925. Before that date the engine serial number is the only VIN. That doesn't mean that the engine number couldn't have been stamped on the frame by "somebody". The frame location of the serial number is on top of the rail under the floor board, usually the right rail, directly over the hand brake shaft.

If I had been stamping these numbers in the Ford factory I think I would have clamped a ruler on the frame so I'd get the numbers straight.

If the CHP is anything like our vehicle registration branch, they will have a form, with a box for the vin number, which needs to be filled in. Rather than fight them to get them to realise their form should not apply to your vehicle, it has been easier to stamp a number on the frame and show them where it is. Box filled!!! I have a T with my birthdate, another with my Army regimental no. and a third with most of my phone number. Everyone is happy. All boxes ticked.
The alternative was to pay a fee for a number they would allocate, and another fee for the local garage to stamp it on the frame, to avoid having to go home and come back another day for the inspection.

Allan from down under.

California can be a bit sticky about this sometimes. However, usually can be done without too much trouble. It often is easier to "generate" a new title based upon lost title rules. You do need to be very clear about the new title being for a vintage automobile, NOT a new creation!
California started a long time ago wanting things done "their" way, and that included vehicle licensing. California wanted all automobiles to be titled by a frame number! Even when half the cars sold new in the state did NOT have a frame number! They created incentives to make people in the state switch to frame numbers beginning in the very early 1920s (I have seen the rule books giving instructions!). Frame numbers could be stamped by any law enforcement officer, Many local legal authorities including a Justice of the Peace and many city officials. In many cases even local mechanics were authorized to stamp the numbers onto the frame.
The silly (and potentially risky) part about all this, is that either the new engine OR the old engine's serial number could be used to be stamped onto the frame. To compound this silliness, and old engine could wind up being rebuilt, and its number could end up on two or even more different cars! The state at that time did not keep a statewide record of all the numbers. Many of them were filed in the local county. The state had a lot of them, but not all changes got to the state's level.

A long time ago, when I was still in high school and very interested in antique automobiles, I got to know an interesting old fellow. I met him through my dad's business connections in an out of the way Northern part of the state. He was at that time a retired sheriff's deputy. He told me many stories of how when he first went to work as a sheriff's deputy in 1921, his first tasks were to drive out to ranches scattered in the hills, and stamp serial numbers onto the model T frames. He claimed to have done a hundred or more over several years. He said there was no specific location for them. There were several common locations for the numbers (front of frame cross member was one!), and sometimes the location chosen was whatever happened to be most handy. He told me about one he put on the front cross member because the rancher hadn't finished fixing the Ford and its new motor, so the car was jammed against a wall where he couldn't get to his preferred spot. He liked the side of the frame rail under the left front fender. Top of frame rail under the floorboards was another popular spot. Even on Ts too early to have the improved model's numbers by the factory. I have seen a couple of those myself.

Just some history. For whatever it is worth.

I don't know of anyone. But I understand there are some businesses that can handle this for a reasonable fee. Probably well worthwhile. However, I have always managed to work through it myself. Usually best at out of the way DMVs. Tell them what they want to know, don't offer any more than you need to. I have some trouble with that. I like to chat. They don't seem to like it.

Rules vary A LOT from one state to the next. Some are better than California. Some are worse. I only know California.


Serial numbers on model Ts is funny stuff. The only legitimate official serial number from the beginning to the very last was the engine's serial number! However, in the beginning? A model T could have as many as FOUR serial numbers! The engine's number was the only "official" number. In addition to that, there was a "car" or production number. This was stamped onto a small plate first mounted on the front seat frame/kick panel. That early small plate was soon enlarged and moved onto the firewall. The number had something to do with recordkeeping during production (mostly before the engine was installed). It mostly matched the engine number in the beginning, but then drifted off and became less meaningful. That number was discontinued during 1915. Most early brass era radiators had a serial number, only for billing and quality control with the radiator suppliers. Throughout the brass era, and continuing on some body styles through most of model T production, bodies were supplied by outside companies. These companies usually put serial numbers on the bodies, sometimes those numbers included date codes.

Thanks everyone for the great information. This will help to get me on the right track to get it registered. The engine that's in it now has a serial number that is only one month later than the original.

Idaho no longer recognizes the motor number as the vin number. They like to scrape, use fluid and search the frame for a number. I get dirty looks when I tell them there isn't one. They have their own metallic red tag they rivet to a body panel. They put mine below the Ford tag for my Rusty Coupe. 4 drive in rivets are hammered in but the hole size of the drill bit they use is too small for my thicker metal dash (firewall). It dented up a bit before we got them installed. It looked horrible even in Rusty until I daubed some rusty mud on it. I kind of like it now.
They will use the brass numbered data plate on the dash of earlier cars. In the '60s they did use the motor number as standard practice. I have a couple cars that will probably have to be re-tagged someday. They had a red vin tag attached with adhesive in the early '80s and put one inside the frame rail under the floorboards on one car but now they say that can't be done. It changes as time and inspectors go by as well as from state to state. I guess we just roll with the bureaucracy.