Upholstery Nails
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Topic author - Posts: 3298
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
- First Name: Larry
- Last Name: Smith
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Upholstery Nails
I don't want guesses on this! For cars made prior to 1922 that used the single welt binding, I believe the upholstery nails were 3/8 dia,, with the exception of the ends of the binding which used a 9/16 dia. head. I've not ever been able to locate any 9/16 upholstery nails, but lucked out on ebay by finding 1/2". They are copper plated, so I painted them black. Sure beats the 7/16 nails I had on the car. Witmer says they have 3/8, but in fact they are 1/32" larger diameter.
I know I get anal on this stuff, but it's important to me.
I know I get anal on this stuff, but it's important to me.
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- First Name: Erik
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Re: Upholstery Nails
My unrestored 1917 roadster has its original upholstery nails and they are most definitely 3/8" in diameter and undersize compared to what is available today.
Regarding the large upholstery nails, I presume you are referring to the two large nails that are on each of the bows. For a touring, is a total of eight large upholstery nails. For a roadster, that is a total of six larrge upholstery nails. (Unforunately, my roadster doesn't have it's original top so I don't have an example of an original, large upholstery nail.)
I recently installed a new top on my dad's 1917 touring. We did it from scratch, not a kit, and used Turf material. My father also made up the binding for the first and last bow (he purchased the bias tape from Classtique but installed the piping and folded and glued it himself).
The first and second photos below are of the 1917 Rip Van Winkle touring and show examples of the large nails - one per side per bow.
The third photo is of the fourth bow on my dad' 1917 touring also showing the large nail that we used at the end of the binding (my dad obtained large upholstery nails from Wittmer years ago). The fourth photo is of the front/first bow also showing the large nail
(Worth noting: the spacing of the upholstery nails on the top is based on photos of the Rip Van Winkle touring as well as the factory photos of the 1917 "mock-up" touring. Ford was pretty economical regarding the amount of upholstery nails used on the top binding. Today, there's a tendency to install too many.)
We also recently purchase large black upholstery nails from the local Hobby Lobby that were larger than the Wittmer large nails thinking the diameter would be more correct; however, they seem too big and they have a much higher and rounded dome and don't look quite correct.
Next time I visit my dad, I'll get samples and take measurements and photos so you can see the comparison between an original 3/8" nail and a comparable but slightly larger nails that are readily available and the two different sizes of the large nails - Wittmer vs Hobby lobby.
Regarding the large upholstery nails, I presume you are referring to the two large nails that are on each of the bows. For a touring, is a total of eight large upholstery nails. For a roadster, that is a total of six larrge upholstery nails. (Unforunately, my roadster doesn't have it's original top so I don't have an example of an original, large upholstery nail.)
I recently installed a new top on my dad's 1917 touring. We did it from scratch, not a kit, and used Turf material. My father also made up the binding for the first and last bow (he purchased the bias tape from Classtique but installed the piping and folded and glued it himself).
The first and second photos below are of the 1917 Rip Van Winkle touring and show examples of the large nails - one per side per bow.
The third photo is of the fourth bow on my dad' 1917 touring also showing the large nail that we used at the end of the binding (my dad obtained large upholstery nails from Wittmer years ago). The fourth photo is of the front/first bow also showing the large nail
(Worth noting: the spacing of the upholstery nails on the top is based on photos of the Rip Van Winkle touring as well as the factory photos of the 1917 "mock-up" touring. Ford was pretty economical regarding the amount of upholstery nails used on the top binding. Today, there's a tendency to install too many.)
We also recently purchase large black upholstery nails from the local Hobby Lobby that were larger than the Wittmer large nails thinking the diameter would be more correct; however, they seem too big and they have a much higher and rounded dome and don't look quite correct.
Next time I visit my dad, I'll get samples and take measurements and photos so you can see the comparison between an original 3/8" nail and a comparable but slightly larger nails that are readily available and the two different sizes of the large nails - Wittmer vs Hobby lobby.
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Re: Upholstery Nails
The type of upholstery nails was one of my concerns when I restored my 21 Touring with the Classtique upholstery kit. I’m not a purist and looking at photos they looked close enough for me BUT it was the spacing I really did try to get correct.
Some were closer spaced than others and not all were exactly evenly spaced. The Rip Van Winkle T did have the spacing a little wider than some cars did so that can be a guide.
I came to the conclusion that it came down to whoever was installing the interiors in the bodies. I think they did try to get them uniform and as long as they looked good visually that was it. Time played a big part in Fords production schedule and the upholstery shops were good enough to eyeball the spacing. I don’t know if Ford had any standards about spacing or type of tacks used but they were uniform.
Some were closer spaced than others and not all were exactly evenly spaced. The Rip Van Winkle T did have the spacing a little wider than some cars did so that can be a guide.
I came to the conclusion that it came down to whoever was installing the interiors in the bodies. I think they did try to get them uniform and as long as they looked good visually that was it. Time played a big part in Fords production schedule and the upholstery shops were good enough to eyeball the spacing. I don’t know if Ford had any standards about spacing or type of tacks used but they were uniform.
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Topic author - Posts: 3298
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
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Re: Upholstery Nails
These are the responses I'm looking for. Thanks. I would like to know what dia. upholstery nails you wound up using. Witmers 3/8" upholstery nails are actually 1/32" larger than 3/8", but look fine and do the job. The 1/2" copper plated upholstery nails I found on ebay are much nicer than the 7/16" that were in it. I painted them black, and are on the car now. The difference to me is obvious. Am I correct that the originals are 9/16"?
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Topic author - Posts: 3298
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
- First Name: Larry
- Last Name: Smith
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- Location: Lomita, California
- MTFCA Number: 121
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Re: Upholstery Nails
My question still hasn't been answered! Are the large upholstery nails pictured above 9/16" diameter?
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Re: Upholstery Nails
Please have some patience.
I don't know what the diameter of the large nails are on the Rip Van Winkle Ford but I believe my father took some measurements off of an unrestored Ford and put that information in his files - I'll ask him next time I see him which is tomorrow.
I will also measure and post photos both varieties of large nails that he has in his inventory that he acquired from Wittmer and what we ultimately used when I recently installed the new top on his '17 touring as well as the nails we recently purchased from Hobby Lobby.
I don't know what the diameter of the large nails are on the Rip Van Winkle Ford but I believe my father took some measurements off of an unrestored Ford and put that information in his files - I'll ask him next time I see him which is tomorrow.
I will also measure and post photos both varieties of large nails that he has in his inventory that he acquired from Wittmer and what we ultimately used when I recently installed the new top on his '17 touring as well as the nails we recently purchased from Hobby Lobby.
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Topic author - Posts: 3298
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
- First Name: Larry
- Last Name: Smith
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
- Location: Lomita, California
- MTFCA Number: 121
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- MTFCI Number: 16310
Re: Upholstery Nails
No information yet! I think Mark Cameron used to have the correct size, and as I recall, they were 9/16" OD.
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Re: Upholstery Nails
Late to the party;
The large upholstery nails on my 1913 runabout are a "generous" 9/16" measuring almost .600" (9/16 = .5625"). Maybe spread a little from being hammered in ?
I can't say they are original. This car was restored to a reasonably high standard about twenty years ago. I had to replace the top last summer, so I salvaged the big nails, but they didn't all survive. Only so many times the nail can be straightened before the head pops off. These appear to be nickeled, then painted black. Top just looks "wrong" with 3/8" welt nails in those locations.
The large upholstery nails on my 1913 runabout are a "generous" 9/16" measuring almost .600" (9/16 = .5625"). Maybe spread a little from being hammered in ?
I can't say they are original. This car was restored to a reasonably high standard about twenty years ago. I had to replace the top last summer, so I salvaged the big nails, but they didn't all survive. Only so many times the nail can be straightened before the head pops off. These appear to be nickeled, then painted black. Top just looks "wrong" with 3/8" welt nails in those locations.
Get a horse !
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- Posts: 864
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- Last Name: Johnson
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Re: Upholstery Nails
Here are photos of an original upholstery nail as well as what is currently available.
SEAT, DOOR PANEL and TOP BINDING/TRIM UPHOLSTERY NAILS:
A = original nail from my unrestored 1917 roadster used on seat and door panel binding
Diameter = 3/8"
Head profile = flat
Pros = it's 100% correct for my car
Cons = identical nails are not currently available unless you can find an NOS supply
B = nail purchased locally
Diameter = 13/32"
Head profile = dome
Pros = closest diameter to original example "A" - only 1/32" larger
Cons = head profile not correct compared to original example "A"
C = nail purchased locally
Diameter = 7/16"
Head profile = flat
Pros = correct head profile
Cons = diameter is 1/16" larger than original example "A"
NOTE: this is the upholstery nail that we used on my father's 1917 touring - refer to the above photos
TOP BINDING UPHOLSTERY NAILS (used at each end of the binding - one per top socket - refer to previously posted photos)
D = nail purchased from Witmer Coach Shop
Diameter = 5/8"
Head profile = flat
Pros = head profile is correct, I believe that the diameter is a good match to original (refer to photos of 1917 Rip Van Winkle touring)
NOTE: we used this nail on the new top of my dad's 1917 touring (refer to photos in my first post)
E = nail purchased locally from Hobby Lobby
Diameter = 3/4"
Head profile = dome
Pros = none
Cons = profile is incorrect and, I believe, diameter is too large/incorrect, at least compared to photo of the 1917 Rip Van Winkle touring previously posted
SEAT, DOOR PANEL and TOP BINDING/TRIM UPHOLSTERY NAILS:
A = original nail from my unrestored 1917 roadster used on seat and door panel binding
Diameter = 3/8"
Head profile = flat
Pros = it's 100% correct for my car
Cons = identical nails are not currently available unless you can find an NOS supply
B = nail purchased locally
Diameter = 13/32"
Head profile = dome
Pros = closest diameter to original example "A" - only 1/32" larger
Cons = head profile not correct compared to original example "A"
C = nail purchased locally
Diameter = 7/16"
Head profile = flat
Pros = correct head profile
Cons = diameter is 1/16" larger than original example "A"
NOTE: this is the upholstery nail that we used on my father's 1917 touring - refer to the above photos
TOP BINDING UPHOLSTERY NAILS (used at each end of the binding - one per top socket - refer to previously posted photos)
D = nail purchased from Witmer Coach Shop
Diameter = 5/8"
Head profile = flat
Pros = head profile is correct, I believe that the diameter is a good match to original (refer to photos of 1917 Rip Van Winkle touring)
NOTE: we used this nail on the new top of my dad's 1917 touring (refer to photos in my first post)
E = nail purchased locally from Hobby Lobby
Diameter = 3/4"
Head profile = dome
Pros = none
Cons = profile is incorrect and, I believe, diameter is too large/incorrect, at least compared to photo of the 1917 Rip Van Winkle touring previously posted
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- Posts: 1397
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Re: Upholstery Nails
A little time would be involved but if the heads are solid they could be turned down and shaped correctly.
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Re: Upholstery Nails
This is what I do in regards to the 3/8 upholstery nails. I made a little resizing block and pound the oversize nails thru.An extra tap when the nail hits bottom flattens the head. Les
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Topic author - Posts: 3298
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
- First Name: Larry
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- Location: Lomita, California
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Re: Upholstery Nails
For the moment, I'm happy with the 1/2" nails I bought off ebay. They are copper plated, so I painted them black. I'm happy so far. They certainly look better than the 7/16" nails I removed. I had to sand down a toothpick and insert it in the hole with some glue to get the nail to stay in place. I have the original bows in my car that came with it in 1913.