Seatbelt mounting examples

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:24 pm

I am not interested in having an argument of installing or not installing seatbelts in the T. If I want to take my son in the car, they are required. I have built a brace that bolts to existing holes and body mounts in the frame that provides solid support. The issue I have is that there is not much room for a mount between the lower seat and the seat back. I would love to see examples of how people got around this issue.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:49 pm

I haven't installed belts in a T, but I might have a suggestion depending on what kind of T it is. I think the best approach would vary depending on body style, with open cars being the easiest..

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:34 pm

Mine is a 22 runabout. I made a bracket that bolts the center body mount and the bottom of the wood plank that supports the back of the seat bottom. It is braced to the rear so it resists forward momentum. It’s all bolted together so I can get it in piece by piece for a tight fit and it is braced in the middle so a centrally mounted belt can’t bend the center up. Here is a picture of the frame in progress on the bench. The sticking point is the best way to attach the belts to this bracket, through the board, and allow the seat bottom to go in and out.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:02 am

If you attach the belts to the car frame, be absolutely certain that the body cannot detach from the frame in an accident. It would be a good idea to anchor the seat cushions to the body. A steering wheel with a pressed steel spider and composite rim is probably safer than a forged or cast spider and wooden rim. I don't know whether the composite rims have a steel core or not, but a steel cored rim with the steel core attached to the spokes would be safer than a rim that could easily break away from the spokes.

Post by **WayneJ** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:36 am

The MTFCA sells a video: 7-4 "Model T Safety "T" Tips", which covers installation of seat belts. You might see if you can borrow a copy. I watched the video along time ago. I think it may have only covered seat belt installation for the front seat, and not the back seat, but I don't remember for sure. For that reason, I suggest finding out what is covered in the video before you buy.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:05 am

I was under the impression that vehicles designed with seat belt anchor points are required to have belts installed, whether they were originally delivered with belts or not, and that those which were never so designed were not required to have them.

Post by **tdump** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:37 am

Just be careful ok?
Sharing ideas on bracket and belt design could be cause for liability on the part of of the designer.
I know and understand the reason for some needing belts so the family can legally ride.Not trying to be a party pooper.
But due to a T not having been designed for seat belts, the situation could be very complicated in a legal sense. Both for those requiring them,the 1's installing them and so on.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:18 am

Mack, those are exceedingly wise words.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:23 am

The day is coming when we will be required to obtain a license in order to speak our minds.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:06 pm

I am a speedster guy so I am used to the issues and risks that come with modifying a T.

I am not recommending anything to anyone and know full well that the T was not designed for seat belts. There is no way that you can make a T safe. From the safety standpoint it’s a terrible design and about the best thing it has going for it is that it’s slow.

There is no way to make sure the body stays on the frame. Can’t be done, though this system adds additional connections between the body and frame. If the body separates, your in a big accident and you are gonna be hurt. If you roll over your in trouble. Those things could happen and Getting “thrown free” Is a dubious survival strategy at best. But if you have a head-on collision (the most likely scenario with T brakes) without seatbelts your passenger will go through the windshield and you are likely to be impaled on the steering column.

Installing belts or not is a personal choice. I am just interested in how others have done it. If you are uncomfortable doing that publicly, feel free to send me a personal message or email.

TRDxB2 · Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:32 pm

The argument for seat belts in a Model T is much the same as for wearing a helmet while driving a motorcycle. The recent Model T accident in West Plains MO may have ended up with the driver thrown from the vehicle

Here are a couple of links for mounting lap style seat belts
https://www.wescoperformance.com/lap-belts-install.html
https://www.wescoperformance.com/2-poin ... stall.html
https://www.seatbeltsplus.com/mm5/image ... 20Belt.pdf
https://www.retrobelt.com/pages/seat-belt-fitment
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Child seat installation
https://www.healthychildren.org/English ... LATCH.aspx
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Here is an interesting diagram for a semi-vehicle having a high seat. The seat belt is secured to the seat frame and a tether is used from the same anchor point to the floor. All pictures of seat belts anchoring positions show the same angle of the belt relative to the floor.

Post by **Steve Jelf** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:09 pm

Getting “thrown free” Is a dubious survival strategy at best.

A masterpiece of understatement. If I had a buck for every news item that said "died when he was thrown from the vehicle" I would be pretty flush. People imagine the "thrown free" experience as landing harmlessly on soft grass. In reality it's usually more like a bug being splattered on a windshield.

I'm not taking the time to research this, but I wonder what percentage of Model T crashes have resulted in the body separating from the frame. My guess is that it's a pretty low number.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:24 pm

Frank, thanks for the good information.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:26 pm

I believe the "thrown free" myth was in wide circulation in the early to mid 20th Century. In most all cases, remaining in the vehicle reduces the chance of injury or worse. With most pre-1928 cars, people rightly feared shattered plate glass, fire, and older open body cars offer no rollover protection. In the case of a closed T, a lap/shoulder combination would be best, but realizing a proper installation would be near-impossible without extensive modification of the car. I keep my car in good running order and avoid traffic whenever possible. Daytime lighting helps. Keeping track of everything around you is a must, much as when riding a motorcycle.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:35 pm

If you strap yoursdelf snugly to the frame of a model T and have a serious crash, you may find that the body mounts, or some of them, may fail, and that the frame will probably flex quite a bit, whether it says flexed or not. Anything loose, including batteries and seat cushions and floorboards, can be expected to fly around. As for "safe speed", there really isn't any. You could easily be killed while sitting still at a red light or stop sign.

Post by **Jahn_Wright** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:41 pm

There are lots of internet photos of Model T accidents, and other than one hit by a train, I've yet to see one where the body separated from the frame. I'm think this is another internet myth.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:49 pm

It would not need to completely separate to cause you issues. Attaching to the body would be safer for several reasons, but it would require carefully considered modifications.

TRDxB2 · Post by **TRDxB2** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:19 pm

The chance of survival of getting "thrown free" in 1920 was 1000 times better than Today considering places one might land.
In 1920 few concrete surfaces to land on, little to no oncoming traffic, younger driver, lower vehicle speeds.
Today hard landings, older drivers, too much surrounding traffic, larger heavier vehicles to be propelled into, higher speeds.
Motorcycle drivers rarely survive an accident or escape uninjured.
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Newton's First Law of Motion states that a body at rest will remain at rest unless an outside force acts on it, and a body in motion at a constant velocity will remain in motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an outside force.

Crash Force
The impact to your body in a crash is called crash force. Crash force is equal to your body weight multiplied by the speed of the vehicle. If you hold your child while riding in a vehicle, you could crush the child during a crash. In a 30 mph crash, a 100 pound adult becomes a 3,000 pound force against the child. If no child then the steering wheel or whatever is immediately in-front of you

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:06 pm

One set of statistics I saw on line said 75% of people fully ejected from a car die. Not a good percentage.

Post by **Oldav8tor** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:35 pm

I believe in seatbelts and never drive a modern vehicle without wearing them. Modern vehicles are designed to protect the occupants so staying within the vehicle can save your life. I am not convinced that is the case with Model T's. All the photos of wrecked Model T's I've seen give me little confidence that anything about the structure would protect me - indeed, there is a long piece of steel aimed directly at my heart that would probably impale me in a head-on collision. I pick the the places I drive very carefully, knowing full well that I would be the loser in any accident.

I believe the reason for this thread has to do with state laws requiring children of a certain age to be carried in car seats.... truthfully, at my age I never gave it much thought although I have given short rides to children. Wondering what the state of Michigan has to say about it I have emailed the Michigan State Police and will share any answer I get back from them. We all take risks when we drive but there is the question of how much we should put our young passengers at risk.....makes you think.

Post by **DHort** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:46 pm

I also have a Speedster. In some events you are required to have seat belts and a helmut. My helmut is made of leather and comes from an aviator catalog. I have rootlieb seats and the seat belts have been installed with a bolt through the seat bottom. Then the seat belts are folded under the seat cushion. Nothing states I have to use them. Just that the car has them.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:43 pm

I have a 2004 GMC regular cab 2500 HD pickup. It has low-back, bucket type seats with a power driver's seat and manual passenger seat. Both seat units sit on a flat or nearly flat floor, on tracks which bolt to a sort of sub frame. Each seat's lap and shoulder belt, all adjustment hardware, and head rest equipment is entirely attached to the seat assembly and moves with it as a unit. The flat cab floor has metal sills underneath where the seat assemblies bolt down. Adjustable seat backs can fold forward, and lock in place. A pair of these seats could easily be adapted for front seating in most Model Ts. A strengthened floor structure would be required. They could be re-covered to look somewhat period. Using these, or similar seats would provide a safe, factory-engineered seat, seat belt, and shoulder belt unit that would function as designed, so long as what it was attached to was sufficiently strong.

Post by **Art M** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:46 pm

I installed seat belts in the rear in 1980 when we could no longer put our child between us in the front.. I no longer drive on public roads with children in the car These old cars are too dangerous to risk a child's safety

Ohio doesn't require children to be belted in cars built before 1975. Which was when seat belts were required by mandate.

Art Mirtes

Post by **Bryant** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:53 pm

And here I purchased a Tudor so the my kids could ride along..this thread has turned into a real horror show. I hope our insurance companies don’t get wind of it

I might convert it into a truck after all.
Bryant

babychadwick · Post by **babychadwick** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:18 pm

Seat belt requirements in an antique car are a joke. Whether or not you wish to install seatbelts is up to you and YOU are the engineer, as well as the safety tester. For a seatbelt to be in a car requires a rigerous testing procedure where at least 1 if not multiple cars WILL be wrecked to test the viability of that seatbelt. Without the testing and standards for a seatbelt for that particular make, model, and year a seatbelt might as well be a piece of twine tied around the neck. This is why without testing and standards it is a joke, nothing more than to make others feel better about themselves.

This is not about you but about what others want to force upon you and without standards and testing seatbelts are a joke.

Reno Speedster · Post by **Reno Speedster** » Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:41 pm

Well as I said, I am not interested in the argument on doing it or not. I am I interested in ways people have done it.

Burger in Spokane · Post by **Burger in Spokane** » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:44 am

This comment has little to do with seatbelts, but seems relevant to the
discussion of safety in a T era vehicle ...

When I got serious about acquiring a T, I applied my usual "listen to the
oldtimers" approach, to size up the group wisdom on the subject. One
thing consistently stated by many was "drive it like it has no brakes".
Having once owned a wrecking yard, I have had way more than my fair
share of experience with cars with no brakes, so this was an easy concept
to get my head around. But as it speaks to safety, driving a vehicle as
cautiously and with as much peripheral awareness as one would with no
brakes pretty much makes a T era vehicle abut as safe as it can possibly
be. In my opinion, that was not only the best piece of advice I ever heard
about T driving, but also that no amount of safety equipment will equal
driving like you have no brakes will do to better one's chances of staying
outof a crash in the first place.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:42 am

Some Australian states require children of a certain age/weight to be restrained, and in the back seat of our old cars, and rally participants are advised of this requirement on entry forms. My grandkids, 3 and 5 years old, ride my 1924 tourer in the same type of car seats they use in their modern car. We made the cross mounting and anchor points for the seats and bolted it to the rear seat riser in the back. The tether strap from the top of the seat passes between the top fabric and the back panel, down to a Ford factory made mounting clip bolted to the spare tyre carrier. An automotive engineer friend of my son suggested that perhaps a steel strap from the mounting down to the frame on each side, would add to its strength, but considered that if what we had was compromised in a prang, we were already in deep trouble.
The reassuring thing about the seats is we know they are restrained and seated. They cannot fall out of the car if a door was sprung. They are so used to riding in any car this way, that they will often nod off until we get there. The beauty of this fitment is when the seats are removed, the mountings are not seen.
I really do like Burger's advice, and would add "Drive like it is a 10 ton truck with no brakes", leaving that much more stopping room if you can.

Allan from down under.

ThreePedalTapDancer · Post by **ThreePedalTapDancer** » Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:52 am

If one is concerned about preserving life, then a helmet is probably the best choice.

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Post by **TXGOAT2** » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:05 am

Bunker-up!! The very air is TOXIC!!!

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:10 pm

We mounted a seat belt in the rear seat anchored to the wood framing of the body. For this Glacier trip, we made a half seat cushion for my wife and let the car seat sit on the platform the cushion would sit on. That lowered it enough to give more protection to our Granddaughter.

She was very content the whole trip with Joy right there to entertain her. We stopped when needed at school playgrounds. It was summer so they were vacant. 700 miles each way (3 days ea.) and the whole tour. An absolutely fantastic time.
Rich

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:03 pm

Way to go Rich! What will you do when there is another grandchild to seat?

Allan from down under.

bdtutton · Post by **bdtutton** » Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:02 pm

I have a 1930 Model A Tudor and an engineering degree and I worked with a seatbelt company to come up with an effective 3 point seatbelt system for my car. (I also have LED lights, radial tires and other safety items.) It is an old car and not as safe as a new one, but I made it a lot safer.
.
I recently finished restoring a 1914 Model T touring and I have added LED brake lights and turn signals, new tires and Rocky Mountain brakes..etc... I have been looking at the seatbelt situation since I started driving it because most people die if they are thrown from the car or hit the dash. But at the end of the day these cars are just not safe and should be driven slowly in areas that are away from dangerous traffic. I say a prayer almost every time I drive it.
.

Post by **Rich Eagle** » Fri Dec 16, 2022 3:02 pm

Allen, we only have the one belt, so we decide which we like best at the time. We put footman loops in the passenger seat and both back seats of the Speedster so we could strap kids in all three places. They kept the youngsters from falling out for thousands of miles. We don't drive the Touring much out of town. I suppose we are negligent. It's among many things as we do wrong.

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:16 pm

A child restraint for infants and very young children is sensible in just about any open car. But it might prove to be of little use in any serious accident in a Model T.

Allan · Post by **Allan** » Fri Dec 16, 2022 4:27 pm

Pat, that's about what the engineer said about our safety seat installation for the grandkids. While the installation keeps them in place, the mountings may be compromised in a crash, but he pointed out that we would be in trouble long before that.

Allan from down under.

Been Here Before · Post by **Been Here Before** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:23 pm

So...any myth busters here with a crash dummy Buster?

1. What is the effect of a crash with Buster 1, no seat belt, at 30 mph into a brick wall?

2. What is the effect of a crash with Buster 1 wearing a seat belt into a brick wall at 30 mph?

3. What is the effect of a crash between two Model Ts with Buster 1 and Buster 2, with Buster 1 wearing a seat belt, and Buster 2 not wearing a seat belt, both cars traveling at 30 mph into each other? A 60mph impact?)

4. What is the effect of a crash between two Model Ts with Buster 1 and Buster 2, wearing a seat belt, both cars traveling at 30 mph into each other? A 60mph impact?)

5. What is the effect of a crash between a Model T with Buster 1 wearing a seat belt, crashing into a Tesla traveling at 80 mph and the Model T at 30 mph? (An impact at 110 mph?)

What are Busters injuries? Is a seat belt in a Model T worth the effort?

Again asking for a friend.

Scott_Conger · Post by **Scott_Conger** » Sat Dec 17, 2022 9:13 pm

I will finance the purchase of the crash test dummies if someone will volunteer the use of their 7 Model Ts and 1 Tesla for the crash tests.

Been Here Before · Post by **Been Here Before** » Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:47 am

""I will finance the purchase of the crash test dummies if someone will volunteer the use of their 7 Model Ts and 1 Tesla for the crash tests.""

Common sense would dictate that it best to avoid any sort of accident with a Model T. But for what ever reason the rule makers are of the opinion that "what is good for the goose, is good for the gander."

With how folks drive today, and with bigger vehicles and greater speed (a 750 hp pick-up truck behind you), in a serious accident, the seat belt in a Model T is and will be as effective as living in the late 1950's, being in school and hiding under a desk when the bomb falls.

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Norman Kling · Post by **Norman Kling** » Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:13 am

A seat belt bolted to the frame of a 26-27 with the all metal body, might work, however, in any car with wood body sills, I think the chance of body separation from the frame is much greater. This would be especially with an unrestored car which could have rot, termites or splintered wood. In the case of wood sills I think it would be much safer to bolt to the wood. maybe even put a steel re-inforcement between the wood and the frame but not bolt the steel to the frame. If the body were to separate from the frame and the occupants were bolted to the frame, it would at least cause broken bones and at worst, actually pull the pelvis from the spinal column. Also another problem if belted into an open car would be a roll over which could cause upper body injury. In the "old days" people would duck down as low as they could get when expecting an accident just in case of a roll over, their upper bodies would not be crushed. I also, only take my great grandchildren as far as our private easement ends at the public street and then turn around and come home.
I have taught my grown children and adult grandchildren to drive the T.
Anyway, no tests were done, just my opinion.
Norm

Post by **TXGOAT2** » Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:15 pm

But... didn't Timmy The Atomic Turtle tell us to get under out desks?