Bent Scat crankshaft

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
BobUkPipedream
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:56 am
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Dyer
Location: Salisbury, UK

Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobUkPipedream » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:20 am

Hi Everyone,

Well I am a very annoyed and pretty depressed. I live in the UK and have a 1923 Speedster that needed a new crank. So I did what I thought was the gold standard and ordered a new Scat crank. 9 months later, it arrived in the UK and of course I had to pay shipping and 25% in import taxes, so it was a massive cost and a long wait. I was so happy when I unboxed it at last:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tldQRcdLvTk

Then I tried it in my block and all seemed fine, but as I turned it, it seemed to rock. I stuck the dial indicator on one end and found a 8 thou rocking. So I set up v blocks and found out that when measured on the centre journal it had a runout of 4 thou… Now I am no expert, but I can not imagine a 4 thou runout will do the centre bearing much good.

https://youtu.be/sSlsxOvuqoU

Now the packaging was fine, no dings to the box and it was fedex. This could only have been a machining mistake with zero quality control before dispatch. I contacted Scat and Langs. Langs were immediately helpful, but other than one holding Email from Scat, I have not heard anything more. It has been nearly four weeks and nothing. I have sent 5 emails with the above video attached and nothing. I am beginning to get quite frustrated as I am now approaching the 1 year point from when I ordered it and I still have a pile of bits, a massive hole in my bank account and a large company that took a chunk of money, sent out a substandard part and is now not responding.

Any one have any ideas?

So just in case any of you were recipients of one of the last batch of cranks (August 2022), the batch number is: 225565.6 N

User avatar

TRDxB2
Posts: 5407
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:56 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: Brandi
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Speedster (1919 w 1926)
Location: Moline IL
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:49 am

If you purchased the item through Lang's, billed by them, then it is Lang's responsibility to make it right for you. Many parts ordered though our suppliers are forwarded to the manufacture for fulfillment and shipping direct to the customer. Obviously given the cost of the crank Lang's couldn't keep several in stock. So I wouldn't expect them to handle the replacement.
Looked into SCAT warranty -
SCAT’s conditional and limited warranty covers manufacturing
defects only, for a period of one year from date of purchase.

Any parts returned for SCAT inspection, under SCAT’s
conditional and limited warranty, must be returned freight
prepaid. It is SCAT’s sole discretion to determine whether to
repair a part, replace a part or deny a customer’s claim. Any
claims are limited to SCAT products and no other component
parts.
--
--
The Law says
"Date of Purchase means the date at which the transaction is posted on the card account and not the date on which the transaction is actually done by the customer." so you better verify a few things and secure copies of bills, emails etc
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:53 am

I'd think it would be likely that it was somehow damaged in shipping. It would be difficult to machine a crankshaft that was bowed.


SteveD
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2021 2:11 pm
First Name: steven
Last Name: davidson
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 touring
Location: Roselle NJ
MTFCA Number: 51591

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by SteveD » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:03 am

I agree with Pat. I'd also mic the journals to confirm they are actually round. You may have a combination of errors.


Topic author
BobUkPipedream
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:56 am
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Dyer
Location: Salisbury, UK

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobUkPipedream » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:18 am

Hi all thanks for the answers. The packaging was pretty substantial foam in cardboard with no signs of damage at all. The only way shipping would have done it would be if shaking the thing could bend it Good point about checking the journals, I will go do that.

The funny thing is that there was no paperwork from Scat, not even a enjoy your product card. So no warranty info and I must confess I had not realised it is 1 year from order being paid. I am still within that year and I am hoping Scat do the right thing as if I have to get on a plane, then they had better order some ear defenders.

I am so annoyed as I tried to get what I thought was the best. I would have been better off sticking a hundred year old EE crank in there. $1560 plus tax, a year gone and now a big headache.


ThreePedalTapDancer
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:29 pm
First Name: Ed
Last Name: Martin
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1909 Touring
Location: Idaho

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:20 am

I would bet it was dropped and repackaged along its journey from Scat.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6428
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:22 am

I am not in the habit of volunteering others to provide guidance, but I think this is an excellent time to sent an email to a couple of our well known and respected engine rebuilders on the forum and ask for their opinion/experience/advice.

I personally have straightened FORD cranks which were out by even more than that but will NOT advise anyone to try the same, much less on a new SCAT crank which is under any kind of implied warrantee.

So, to be clear, the only advice I'm offering is that you reach out and contact folks who do this stuff all the time and likely have experience with this sort of thing.

Any other advice you receive on the Forum, from even the most generous and well-meaning folks should be very carefully weighed before acting on said advice, lest you back yourself into a corner and end up with a very expensive paperweight. Right now, it's a paperweight, but not of your own making and may have some sort of recourse or mitigation available to you...go off on your own, and you will clearly "own" the problem.
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Topic author
BobUkPipedream
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:56 am
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Dyer
Location: Salisbury, UK

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobUkPipedream » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:27 am

The box had Scat and the details written on the end so it was the original box. It did have Langs packing tape on it, but that was over the original tape and was used to attach the shipping customs stuff on. There are no dings in the shaft, no scratches, if it did get dropped, then I think that would have been at Scat’s place, but as said there is no damage on it and to bend it, I would think there would have to be some kind of obvious witness mark left behind.

I am wondering if anyone else received their crank from this batch and found issues.


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:31 am

A blow to either end of the shaft could easily bow it.


Gen3AntiqueAuto
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:36 pm
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Foye
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 Fordor, 15 speedster (2), 23 touring, 26 fordor, 25 TT
Location: Middleborough MA
MTFCA Number: 292
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 106
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:41 pm

It's been a decade since I have dealt with them so I don't remember - was this in a wooden box with all three mains aupported? Nine months laying on it's side could certainly bend one. Box could have sagged. Storing crankshafts = must be standing up or they bend. Find a local machine shop and have them straighten it. You're too far away to get justice. "pre-paid shipping" and all that nonsense.
Gen III Antique Auto - we do Model T Ford Restorations

You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want -Zig Z.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeROBg ... pB-KImprjw


Art M
Posts: 841
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:57 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Mirtes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: Huron, Ohio
MTFCA Number: 32489
MTFCI Number: 24068
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Art M » Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:48 pm

In addition to micrometer measurements, vee blocks and a dial indicator would give a better indication of the condition of the journal surfaces.

Art Mirtes


ThreePedalTapDancer
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:29 pm
First Name: Ed
Last Name: Martin
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1909 Touring
Location: Idaho

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:55 pm

I was once told that any crankshaft stored unsupported sideways or hanging will eventually develop a “set” that will need to be straightened, so maybe that’s the case.


Art M
Posts: 841
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:57 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Mirtes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: Huron, Ohio
MTFCA Number: 32489
MTFCI Number: 24068
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Art M » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:15 pm

I suspect that the required force to push the center main in line with the other mains is about 200 pounds. This is only a guess based on assumptions and some arithmetic.

This would probably not significantly impact the life of the bearings. Not sure about vibration.

I would leave this issue to the advice of an experienced engineer builder.

Art Mirtes


Topic author
BobUkPipedream
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:56 am
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Dyer
Location: Salisbury, UK

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobUkPipedream » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:25 pm

Thanks everyone for comments so far.

The box was very thick cardboard and the hard foam gave complete support over the whole length. I have heard the thing about storing cranks on their end and have had the crank in opposite to its bend the last month - no change. I never fully get the argument with 100 year old cranks as there is a lot of metal to bend, but a lot of people say that a crank will bend under weight. With a forged Scat, one would think that this would be even less likely. In the packaging it was 90 degrees to the bend too, so less that a month in shipping (only an extra week to get to the UK actually) in a fully supported packaging and such seems a very short time for it to do a 4 thou Uri Geller.

That is also why I am wondering if any others here had a Aug/Sep 2022 batch delivery of a crank. I may not be alone.

The far from justice bit worries me, partly as I am the type to get so fed up that I grab a plane and close that gap! However on the flip side, given the cost of a new crank, people have to both have trust in companies and companies have to engender that trust otherwise no one will buy cranks. I am hoping that Scat stands by their product. We do have, I think, a semi-official importer here in the UK, so possibly that might offer a solution to returning a crank.

I am not adverse to straightening it, but only after agreement and sizeable discount as for one thing that will cost cash and for the second thing that would then stick me in the place of no warranty and no comebacks.


ModelTWoods
Posts: 1048
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:53 am
First Name: Terry
Last Name: Woods
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Model T coupe, 1926 4 door sedan
Location: Cibolo (San Antonio), TX
MTFCI Number: 20180

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by ModelTWoods » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:35 pm

You might contact Brent L. Terry at model-a-ford.com. he is a well known restorer and I remember that he posted late in the summer, or early in the fall that he had ordered 4 Scat cranks and had received them. One was surplus to his needs so he offered it for sale on the Model T ford Club of America club classifieds. The time period seems to fit your circumstances. His Forum user name is BRENT in 10-uh-C.
P.S. It is hard to imagine how the crank could have been handled so roughly in shipping not to cause ANY damage to the foam packing or the box. With something that heavy, accidents can happen, though. I, once, had a used 1927 bare block shipped to Texas from Minnesota, When it arrived, it had been dropped in shipping by U.P.S. and the pan rail on the bottom of the block was in several pieces.
Last edited by ModelTWoods on Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:51 pm, edited 4 times in total.


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Original Smith » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:39 pm

I know the owner of Scat. I'm sure if it is determined the the crankshaft was not damaged by neglect, he would make it good.


ModelTWoods
Posts: 1048
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:53 am
First Name: Terry
Last Name: Woods
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Model T coupe, 1926 4 door sedan
Location: Cibolo (San Antonio), TX
MTFCI Number: 20180

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by ModelTWoods » Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:42 pm

Original Smith wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 1:39 pm
I know the owner of Scat. I'm sure if it is determined the the crankshaft was not damaged by neglect, he would make it good.
Good idea, Larry. Do what you can to help this 'chap' out.


Les Schubert
Posts: 1311
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:47 pm
First Name: Les
Last Name: Schubert
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 roadster 13 touring
Location: Calgary

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Les Schubert » Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:13 pm

So if I’m reading this right you are getting a dial indicator reading of.004”. So this translates into actually.002” of bend. Laying flat for that length of time would easily cause this. Personally I would just use it as that amount of deflection would not concern me. I’ve been building T engines for almost 50 years and some really high performance ones!


Norman Kling
Posts: 4068
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:14 pm

Be careful of trying to straighten the crank. You MUST find someone familiar with the process and trustworthy. I once had a crank with no need to be turned but took it to a shop to be magnafluxed for cracks. They told me there were no cracks but needed to be straightened. I asked them if they had the equipment to straighten it and was told yes. After they worked on it, I took it to our local bearing pouring shop and they miked the crank and found the mains 50 thousandth under and the rods 30 under. Apparently all they did was turn the bearings until they all lined up! That was when I installed a SKAT crank and have had no problems with it. I then took my old crank to an auction with our local club and I labeled it and what size the journals were. Someone actually bought it. I don't remember whom nor whether or not they had trouble with it or ever used it?
Norm

User avatar

Mark Chaffin
Posts: 3327
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:11 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Chaffin
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Speedster, 1927 Lake Roadster
Location: Lake Elsinore
MTFCA Number: 31705
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Mark Chaffin » Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:20 pm

Larry,

Tom Lieb doesn't own SCAT any longer. He sold the company a year ago.


speedytinc
Posts: 3840
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
First Name: john
Last Name: karvaly
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
Location: orange, ca
MTFCA Number: 14383
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by speedytinc » Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:46 pm

Mark Chaffin wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:20 pm
Larry,

Tom Lieb doesn't own SCAT any longer. He sold the company a year ago.
I talked to him @ Tulare. He was acting as consultant to the new company @ the time.


Allan
Posts: 5201
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Allan » Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:07 pm

Lack of response from Scat about concerns is not new. we had a crank with .002" runout on the back flange. Despite sending a video of a dial indicator showing the fault. there was no answer from Scat. It was easily corrected by our crankshaft grinder, but that is not the point.

Allan from down under.

User avatar

Mark Chaffin
Posts: 3327
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:11 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Chaffin
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Speedster, 1927 Lake Roadster
Location: Lake Elsinore
MTFCA Number: 31705
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Mark Chaffin » Sat Nov 26, 2022 8:02 pm

I spoke with him at Tulare also. He did say he was consulting until November this year.

User avatar

BRENT in 10-uh-C
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:21 am
First Name: Brent
Last Name: Terry
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Tourabout, 1914 Runabout, 1915 Touring, 1916 Speedster, 1925 Speedster, 1926 Hack
Location: Eastern Tennessee
MTFCA Number: 32295
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BRENT in 10-uh-C » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:34 am

BobUkPipedream wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:20 am
Hi Everyone,

Well I am a very annoyed and pretty depressed. I live in the UK and have a 1923 Speedster that needed a new crank. So I did what I thought was the gold standard and ordered a new Scat crank. 9 months later, it arrived in the UK and of course I had to pay shipping and 25% in import taxes, so it was a massive cost and a long wait. I was so happy when I unboxed it at last:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tldQRcdLvTk

Then I tried it in my block and all seemed fine, but as I turned it, it seemed to rock. I stuck the dial indicator on one end and found a 8 thou rocking. So I set up v blocks and found out that when measured on the centre journal it had a runout of 4 thou… Now I am no expert, but I can not imagine a 4 thou runout will do the centre bearing much good.

https://youtu.be/sSlsxOvuqoU

Now the packaging was fine, no dings to the box and it was fedex. This could only have been a machining mistake with zero quality control before dispatch. I contacted Scat and Langs. Langs were immediately helpful, but other than one holding Email from Scat, I have not heard anything more. It has been nearly four weeks and nothing. I have sent 5 emails with the above video attached and nothing. I am beginning to get quite frustrated as I am now approaching the 1 year point from when I ordered it and I still have a pile of bits, a massive hole in my bank account and a large company that took a chunk of money, sent out a substandard part and is now not responding.

Any one have any ideas?

So just in case any of you were recipients of one of the last batch of cranks (August 2022), the batch number is: 225565.6 N

Bob, I received your e-mail and I received a couple of e-mails from other forum users, so with your permission I will answer here. I will preface by saying that while my shop does rebuild Model-T engines, we are known more for Model-As therefore I have more factory drawings and experience with that era.

With that said, before we all jump to conclusions I would suggest a couple of other things. I have watched your video multiple times however when you said you had run-out on the flange end by 0.008", it appeared to me you were deflecting the crank by pushing downward. I did not understand the correlation between the two, so I apologize if what I am suggesting below is redundant, but let me give my thoughts anyway.

To begin with, before becoming too alarmed I would switch V blocks and use blocks that have a much wider surface for the front and rear pin. The reason for this is to eliminate the possibility of the pin wanting to climb the angle portion of the 'V' thus causing the error in the indicator reading. My V blocks are 2.000" wide to properly support the crankshaft which I would consider a minimum width to use. So with this said, lets move on.

To begin with, I think you are expecting more rigidity from the crankshaft than is possible with a shaft that has a 1.250" pin connecting to the webs. The weight alone from the beefier webs and the counterweights will cause deflection. If what you were measuring was deflection and calling runout, I would say that is nothing to be concerned with. That is the reason why the engine had 3 main bearings instead of two, ...and why the preference would likely be for 5 main bearings.

The next test I would do immediately is to check the flange run-out in a medial runout movement (-or the perimeter of the flange moving fore & aft) during rotation. If there is not any movement, that would likely suggest the unmachined forging was pinched too tight during the grinding process. My crank grinder (Storm Vulcan #15) uses centers to support the crankshaft which I find it is VERY easy to 'over-pinch' a T crank during setup. That is why grinders use a steadyrest to support the center bearing of the crankshaft during grinding. If you do find runout in the rear flange (-which I suspect you will), then your third test needs to use a set of three matched 2" wide V blocks to support the crank on a granite surface block or a ground surface such as a Mill table bed. Then take your measurements again reading the center main along with the rear flange to see if the support from the center journal pin corrects the problem. Also take notice for any pin journal taper. If the crankshaft was ground with runout in the center, you will likely see taper in the pin from one end towards the other end. On the Model-A crankshaft print that I have, it calls for a maximum of 0.0005" taper from end to end and no more than 0.00025 out of round. Modern crank grinding equipment can hit that ¼-thousandth measurement fairly easily but I would think that tolerance would have been greater back when the T was new. Maybe not??

I have taken the liberty to email you a copy of the A-6303 Model-A crankshaft so that you can read the verbiage the Ford engineers placed on the drawing for their Test Department (a/k/a Quality Control), but for reference here, Ford's engineers specified the Model-A crankshaft (-which was a much beefier crankshaft design) "WITH THE SHAFT MOUNTED ON TWO END BEARINGS THE CENTER BEARING MUST NOT RUNOUTOVER .002" TOTAL INDICATOR READING...". It also states "...THE AXES OF ALL PIN BEARINGS MUST LIE WITHIN .005" OF A COMMON PLANE PASSING THRU THE CENTERLINE OF THE KEYWAY AND THE CENTER OF THE MAIN BEARINGS..." which is the 'twist'. Now again, these are tolerances that were designated on a crankshaft that arguably is at least 50% stronger and maybe even more, -but since I do not have a print for the T crankshaft, that is the best I can suggest. So again, my takeaway is first support the crankshaft a tad better (listen to the screeching, rubbing sound in your video) and re-check. Next check the flange for runout. Based on your findings, follow-up with a 3rd support block.

One final comment, if the crankshaft does have run-out in the flange, then likely the crank is slightly bent. This can happen just from knocking it over on the floor, -or dropping it onto the table, -or a hundred other ways. When I remove a crank from my grinder, the first thing I do is check for it being bent, and most T cranks (-and A cranks too) will be out just a tad. They are very easily straightened by peening the crank. With the front and rear pins properly supported in V blocks, a rap or two by a hammer to a dull chisel hitting the cheek of the pin will straighten the crank. This is the fillet area on the main journal on the side that needs to draw (-shrink). This does not mar or damage the surface finish of the pin if done correctly, and is much superior IMO to using a press. Again, you have my email, so reach out if you have additional questions.


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:01 am

I would coat any surface of the crankshaft that contacts V blocks, or anything else, with light coating of thin oil. Be sure everything is at a completely uniform temperature. Blocks must sit dead-flat on a clean surface.


Philip
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:09 pm
First Name: Philip
Last Name: Thompson
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 touring
Location: Graham NC

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Philip » Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:02 am

it is as good or better than i get when i have them ground. they are too small and flex like crazy.
in your situation i would run it. it is better than what i put in my engine and im driving. philip


Topic author
BobUkPipedream
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:56 am
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Dyer
Location: Salisbury, UK

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobUkPipedream » Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:00 pm

Thanks again everyone and thanks Brent for such a complete reply.

The 8 thou measurement was how I first noticed that all was not quite right. With the crank in the block so supported on all three pins, I push down on one end and the crank see-saws on the middle babbit bearing and makes the other end go up and down by 8 thou. Turn it through 180 degrees and it will not see-saw because the middle of the crank has lifted clear of the centre bearing. The bow in the crank is very stable and consistent.

The screeching is the counter weights touching the block. I take the point about the oil. What I will say is that I turned the crank slowly many times backwards and forwards and got the same consistent readings in the same plane. By placing a reasonable amount of downward pressure (as in a lot as in something like a hundred to 150 pounds) I could push/bend/straighten the crank with my hand. Again after releasing, I get exactly the same 4-5 thou reading in exactly the same plane. I am sure the bearing caps would have no problem forcing the crank straight, but I think the wear, vibration and pounding on the centre bearing would severely shorten the life of my centre bearing and could lead to crank failure in the same way that a twisted pan or out of alignment 4th main can.

I will go check the runout on the flange and also measure the journals to make sure they are not out of round and then report back. Again, thanks everyone.


got10carz
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Meixner
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911,13,14,19,23,25,26,27
Location: Moorhead MN
MTFCA Number: 28023
MTFCI Number: 20471

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by got10carz » Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:17 pm

Here is my crankshaft story. I had a crank, checked runout, was maybe .001at center main, acceptable. I always machine the back flange straight, so put it in the lathe. When I ran the center in the back I overtighten it and sprung the crank maybe .006. I removed the center and put a steady rest on rear bearing surface. By leaning on it with just my weight I was able to straighten back to the .001.
This crank was only sprung for minutes, not months, but was easy to fix.

User avatar

David Greenlees
Posts: 168
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2022 1:18 pm
First Name: David
Last Name: Greenlees
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 Model T racing car, 1924 Model T Depot Hack with original York #803 body.
Location: Guilford, VT
Contact:

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by David Greenlees » Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:26 pm

After having rebuilt 100s of engines dating from 1896 to the early '30s in the last 40 years, I quickly learned that most shops can't or will not take the time necessary to accurately re-grind early slender crankshafts with small-sized bearing journals. To explain how to do the job correctly and get an acceptable result takes more time than I have to devote to it here.

The real issue with Roberts case is most likely the shaft wasn't bent after grinding, but in the interest of making money and grinding more cranks per day, almost all modern crank grinding machines are equipped with non-adjustable (other than setting the stroke) three-jaw chucks to hold each end of the shaft in the grinding machine. They also don't take the time to do the set up correctly and skip many of the steps necessary to do that.

Most three-jaw chucks are known for not being perfectly accurate, and add to that, the jaws and the scroll inside of the chuck wear, and that can cause them to bow a crank when tightened. After the process of grinding the crank straight and to size which was bowed when the setup was done, and the chucks are loosened, the shaft returns to its original shape and is no longer straight and often also has a rear flange that runs out.

I have also found that most shops do not check that cranks runs true after the grinding is complete and assume that it is ok and send it out the door. Because of these issues it became necessary to learn how to straighten cranks both before, and after being re-ground by peening but that's a story for another time.


Gen3AntiqueAuto
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:36 pm
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Foye
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 Fordor, 15 speedster (2), 23 touring, 26 fordor, 25 TT
Location: Middleborough MA
MTFCA Number: 292
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 106
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:33 am

Did I read this right? You're testing the crank for true IN A USED T BLOCK?
Post the videos if you can. If the center main in the block is worn - um.... I would strongly suggest you take this crankshaft to a machine shop and ask them to check it for true and balance. A quid or couple pounds or whatever you have there would be worth it to find out?

BobUkPipedream wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:00 pm
Thanks again everyone and thanks Brent for such a complete reply.

The 8 thou measurement was how I first noticed that all was not quite right. With the crank in the block so supported on all three pins, I push down on one end and the crank see-saws on the middle babbit bearing and makes the other end go up and down by 8 thou. Turn it through 180 degrees and it will not see-saw because the middle of the crank has lifted clear of the centre bearing. The bow in the crank is very stable and consistent.

The screeching is the counter weights touching the block. I take the point about the oil. What I will say is that I turned the crank slowly many times backwards and forwards and got the same consistent readings in the same plane. By placing a reasonable amount of downward pressure (as in a lot as in something like a hundred to 150 pounds) I could push/bend/straighten the crank with my hand. Again after releasing, I get exactly the same 4-5 thou reading in exactly the same plane. I am sure the bearing caps would have no problem forcing the crank straight, but I think the wear, vibration and pounding on the centre bearing would severely shorten the life of my centre bearing and could lead to crank failure in the same way that a twisted pan or out of alignment 4th main can.

I will go check the runout on the flange and also measure the journals to make sure they are not out of round and then report back. Again, thanks everyone.
Gen III Antique Auto - we do Model T Ford Restorations

You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want -Zig Z.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeROBg ... pB-KImprjw


BobD
Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:08 pm
First Name: Bob
Last Name: Doris
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Runabout, 1930 Sport Coupe
Location: Prescott, Arizona
MTFCA Number: 32538
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobD » Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:43 am

TheSpeedsterProject wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:33 am

Post the videos if you can.
The OP did post two videos in the first post. As TheSpeedsterProject pointed out, a visit to a professional automotive machine shop for crankshaft analysis and opinion. As Brent Terry pointed out, a granite surface plate, or a ground surface like a mill table, inspection grade V blocks are prerequisites for a proper quality control inspection. In addition, an engineering drawing or sheet with tolerance call out specifications as well as knowledge of QC inspection practices.


Topic author
BobUkPipedream
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:56 am
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Dyer
Location: Salisbury, UK

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobUkPipedream » Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:06 pm

Hi All,

I have some knowledge of precision engineering (built a boat and a plane, a real one that is), so I am not an engineer in the crank grinding sense, but I do know how to use micrometers, dial indicators, v blocks and such. The test that made me realise something was up was testing it in my used block. It should be noted that a straight crank would give the same result one up or other way up irregardless of the block - so if it rocked one way, then turning it through 180 degrees should not make a difference and it would still rock. Mine rocked one way and not the other. That is why I then stuck it on v blocks and verified it as in the video with a dial indicator - several times and the readings have been consistent.

I have now visited an engineering shop and they concur that the crank is bent by 4 thou. Straightening it will cost money and as their normal process would be to finish it off with a grind, that option is not open to me as my babbits are standard. So although I could convince them to do it the press way and leave it at that, they are less than impressed with that. If I do ask them to do it, I will be taking a huge risk (given how much the crank cost) and will be out of pocket and will also be out of warranty. I will also worry then that the crank has been compromised. Dependent on your view, perhaps I would not need to worry, but then I have seen the pictures of broken Scat cranks. Perhaps they were installed wrong with misaligned pans, or perhaps they were bent.

Scat cranks for Volkswagens cost $350 and they are nitrided. I bet they do not need to get a chisel out or stick it in a press. So when I pay $1560, I kind of expect something that works out the box. I accept it is a low volume crank forging that can only be used for three types of engine, but that is why we pay a premium and have to wait months for each batch to be made.

Still no answer from Scat either to me or to Langs.


Kerry
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:42 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: van Ekeren
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 touring, 1916 pick-up, 1924 coupe, 1926 touring, 1927 touring
Location: Rosedale Vic Australia

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Kerry » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:36 pm

I have straightened several cranks over the years. Nothing wrong in the way Robert has determined the run out on his new crank, the fact is it is out. over 50 years of engine re-building and machining, I would not except that amount of run out, engine engineering books on specs will give you .0025" at the max, less is what one would be striving for.


J and M Machine
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:46 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Gulbankian
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by J and M Machine » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:51 pm

It's unfortunate that you didn't get what you've paid for.
However the crank could be straightened but I would wait to hear back from Lang's, Have you tried directly contacting former owner of SCAT?
Tom Lieb <tlieb@ScatEnterprises.com>
IMG_3211.JPG
Problem with straightening your crank is they may have ground it with too much force on center main causing the out of round.

If the crank is bent from being dropped then by using the setup I have shown above, you may be able to peen it back as you mentioned other machine shop.
With so little off they could use a brass peen and wouldn't cause damage to crank rather than regrinding. But Time is money.

User avatar

FreighTer Jim
Posts: 1724
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:50 am
First Name: James
Last Name: Jarzabek
Location: Dayton, OH
MTFCA Number: 29562
MTFCI Number: 24398
Board Member Since: 2008
Contact:

Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by FreighTer Jim » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:04 pm

I have been in contact with the OP.
My manner is direct.

A company was sold and representations
were made which would lead past & future
customers to believe that the new ownership would
continue with the level of quality that had
been associated with a small business owner.

The new ownership is a large company
that has been buying up several smaller
companies in - what appears to be - an
attempt to corner a niche market.

To me - based upon the OP’s comments
the quality of the product appears to
have been below industry standard when
it left the new manufacturer.

The lack of acknowledgement or reply
to the OP’s concerns by the manufacturer
in a timely manner - in my opinion - is
demonstrative of what is now the priority
for product being manufactured - sold & shipped.

That priority does not appear to be
either quality or customer service.


FJ
Google “ Model T Transport “
MTFCA - MTFCI - MAFCA Member

User avatar

BRENT in 10-uh-C
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:21 am
First Name: Brent
Last Name: Terry
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 Tourabout, 1914 Runabout, 1915 Touring, 1916 Speedster, 1925 Speedster, 1926 Hack
Location: Eastern Tennessee
MTFCA Number: 32295
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BRENT in 10-uh-C » Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:25 pm

BobUkPipedream wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:06 pm

I have now visited an engineering shop and they concur that the crank is bent by 4 thou. Straightening it will cost money and as their normal process would be to finish it off with a grind, that option is not open to me as my babbits are standard. So although I could convince them to do it the press way and leave it at that, they are less than impressed with that. If I do ask them to do it, I will be taking a huge risk (given how much the crank cost) and will be out of pocket and will also be out of warranty.
Bob, it is NOT my intent to upset you nor argue with you, but if your "engineering shop" has a normal protocol to straighten your crank and then re-grind it, ...IMO you really need to find a shop that is knowledgeable about, and has proper experience on vintage crankshafts. As I mentioned above, a press is not how you would straighten that SCAT crankshaft. It is to be done with peening, ...which does not damage the surface.

Also, with the comment about Nitriding, to be clear to others who may have the same misunderstanding, the surface hardening is done on many crankshafts that survive re-grinding and post-peening to straighten without damage. Therefore straightening a crankshaft (-either pre-grinding or post-grinding) that has been surface hardened has no ill affect whatsoever as long as the process was properly done.

As someone with experience in straightening crankshafts, I do not feel there is any risk involved however based on your comments both above and in your video, do you think at this point it would be best for you to ship this crankshaft back to Langs and seek some sort of a refund. At that point, I would be happy to either purchase your crank from Don or correct it for him. Likely there are other T engine shops that would do the same.

While I do feel badly for you experiencing this struggle, we are in a new day & time where staffing issues, lack of material availabilities when needed, and labor shortages have greatly impacted our hobby. I am not making excuses for SCAT, but at least we still have one manufacturer still able to produce quality aftermarket T crankshafts. SCAT manufactures T cranks as a convenience for us, -and not as a necessity!! Their plate is WAY overfilled with producing crankshafts & components for the racing aftermarket. And a final FWIW, it has been my experience that when I needed a new crankshaft made from billet for a vintage engine, the wait time was similar to yours with the final cost about triple to what you paid. I feel if you will be patient and quietly let Langs and SCAT correct the issue, they will make it right. Until then, keep the faith.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6428
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:37 pm

Well put, and solid advice
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Art M
Posts: 841
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:57 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Mirtes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: Huron, Ohio
MTFCA Number: 32489
MTFCI Number: 24068
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Art M » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:39 pm

Brent,
It is refreshing to know there are people in the hobby who understand the effects of surface and case hardening when grinding and how to deal with it. I am sure there are other besides you in this hobby who are experts.

In this case I feel that this crankshaft could be used as is without any detrimental effects on journal life, but the flange runout should be checked.

Art Mirtes


ThreePedalTapDancer
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:29 pm
First Name: Ed
Last Name: Martin
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1909 Touring
Location: Idaho

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:48 pm

Why do I get the feeling that I should order a scat crank now that the business has changed hands? Things that are slow movers off the shelves tend become scarce and eventually disappear during buyouts.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6428
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:54 pm

Ed, I'd call that feeling "good sense"
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Luke
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:04 am
First Name: Luke
Last Name: P
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Luke » Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:57 am

ThreePedalTapDancer wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:48 pm
Why do I get the feeling that I should order a scat crank now that the business has changed hands? Things that are slow movers off the shelves tend become scarce and eventually disappear during buyouts.
Would it be a good idea first to see how the issue raised in this thread is resolved?

User avatar

Rob
Posts: 1431
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Rob
Last Name: Heyen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Models B, F, K, N, Ford racer and 3 Model T
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Rob » Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:40 am

Interesting and informative thread. Brent, good comments and advice. Again, much good information.


J and M Machine
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:46 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Gulbankian
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by J and M Machine » Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:12 am

Would it be a good idea first to see how the issue raised in this thread is resolved?
[/quote]


Yes, Because for people out of the country like this person, your calls will most likely fall on deaf ears.

We're in USA and it's hard enough for us to get any updates on cranks for our customers never mind outside US.
I had posted the former owner's email and took a while but got a response whereas we couldn't get any from company proper.

I would be amazed if they were to send call tag and replace crank.


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Dec 03, 2022 9:21 am

So, for 1500-1700 dollars you get a core crankshaft. (?) If they can't or won't finish the parts, maybe they could sell raw forgings.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6428
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:26 am

This is a bad deal for Bob in UK, having to work with a manufacturer, a middle man, and a trip 1/2 'way 'round the world with a bulky and expensive-to-ship product. There is no indication on the Forum or elsewhere that this is a systemic and ongoing problem with SCAT, and I am unhappy to read the drift on the thread with a salty suggestion of
If they can't or won't finish the parts, maybe they could sell raw forgings
Once someone veers the conversation into a wholly negative light, for absolutely no sense or reason, then at this point these sorts of threads do nothing to serve the Hobby and most certainly do not encourage new or existing suppliers to enter the fray with new and/or better products when they know in advance that there is always ONE or more persons willing to completely disparage their product and good name, no matter HOW MANY copies of perfect product and MANY HAPPY customers there are out there.

Like Brent, I think it would be good to work this problem amongst the principles and not in public. The boo-birds these things eventually provoke provide no value or solution to the problem nor elevate the spirit of the conversation. I'm inclined to think this has run its course, and if this is truly a no-win situation in UK, then it might just be in Bob's best interest to take up Brent's generous offer (which actually sounds an awful lot like an actual solution)
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:31 am

Whatever. There appear to have been some changes at Scat. I hope the isssue is settled, and soon, to the satisfaction of all parties involved. ****

"I am beginning to get quite frustrated as I am now approaching the 1 year point from when I ordered it and I still have a pile of bits, a massive hole in my bank account and a large company that took a chunk of money, sent out a substandard part and is now not responding."


Luke
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:04 am
First Name: Luke
Last Name: P
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Luke » Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:53 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:26 am
Like Brent, I think it would be good to work this problem amongst the principles and not in public.
I'd agree with you (see my post regarding FreighterJim's trailer issue for example), except:
BobUkPipedream wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:20 am
It has been nearly four weeks and nothing. I have sent 5 emails with the above video attached and nothing.
Seems to me that four weeks (probably now five, unless Bob has heard back in the interim) would be a more than reasonable time to have expected a response and resolution from a trustworthy manufacturer. That he's needed to resort to publically asking for advice here would appear to be a direct result of a failure to promptly address this problem by said manufacturer.

I fully acknowledge we only really have one side of the issue here, and there could be things we don't know, but there's been a good amount of time since this query was originally posted for the manufacturer, or even the reseller, to have put their view forward. My one reservation to this thought would be if they weren't aware of this thread, so I'd like to know has anyone actually apprised them of it?.

In terms of the fundamental issue of an out-of-true crank, there have been some great responses here, and those professionals that responded are to be complimented for freely giving their advice in terms of whether it actually a problem, and how to true the crank. As far as the manufacturer is concerned I'd certainly accept that sometimes bad stuff happens. It's a shame, it's a bummer, but I'd like to know that a good company would simply apologise and put it right - and that any reasonable person would accept that apology, and maybe post about the good experience they'd had.

As a potential customer of this manufacturer (and retailer), I want to read those positive posts but, sadly, I'm disturbed to see what I have to date. Now I'd want to see the outcome of this issue before I decided to purchase one of these cranks; as things stand at the present I think there's still an opportunity to turn this around, but as time rolls on that would seem to be rapidly diminishing.

To conclude; a significant point for me is that the original poster has purchased a brand new product that seems to have a problem, he's attempted to address this as he should directly but it appears he's not getting the 'official' support he needs to resolve that problem. This is why he's come here, and why I'd see telling him to 'work this problem amongst the principles and not in public' is not especially useful to him...

Luke.

User avatar

FreighTer Jim
Posts: 1724
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:50 am
First Name: James
Last Name: Jarzabek
Location: Dayton, OH
MTFCA Number: 29562
MTFCI Number: 24398
Board Member Since: 2008
Contact:

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by FreighTer Jim » Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:21 pm

Luke

Don’t attempt to compare what happened to me
on the road with what is going on here …

This is my thread you referenced:

@ https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32881

The original aluminum axle mounting plate holding
a 5200 pound torsion axle on my expensive custom
high dollar enclosed all aluminum car hauler
trailer with less than 50K miles on it -
completely broke off - allowing my front
axle to float freely on the passenger side for more
than 100 miles on an interstate - it could have
come loose completely.

The manufacturer design & installation was inadequate.


FJ
Google “ Model T Transport “
MTFCA - MTFCI - MAFCA Member


Luke
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:04 am
First Name: Luke
Last Name: P
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Luke » Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:01 pm

FJ,

Thanks for posting the link.

Just to be clear - I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the design of your trailer (I don't have enough data anyway :). My point was simply that I do think manufacturer's and retailers should have a chance to address issues first - and that this was consistent with what I'd said about your trailer. It is also at least partly consistent with other comments on the issue at hand here, including Scott's.

However if that doesn't result in a positive outcome, or none at all, then (as I see it) putting the issue to a forum such as this is a fine methodology to seek advice (and to alert other potential purchasers of a possible issue).

From what you said in your thread it seemed to me you hadn't given that manufacturer a chance to address your issue specifically, nor the possibly wider problem for others in the future should it turn out to be a design issue. However in this case it would appear Bob has given the manufacturer the opportunity, but apparently they've not responded at all, so he's posted here. This is perhaps where I differ from Scott's view for example, ie. I think Bob's actions are reasonable - and perhaps not unexpected given he's been forced to seek advice in the absence of an 'official' response or resolution.

Luke.

User avatar

FreighTer Jim
Posts: 1724
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:50 am
First Name: James
Last Name: Jarzabek
Location: Dayton, OH
MTFCA Number: 29562
MTFCI Number: 24398
Board Member Since: 2008
Contact:

Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by FreighTer Jim » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:03 pm

To The OP …

Best Of Luck 🍀

FJ
Google “ Model T Transport “
MTFCA - MTFCI - MAFCA Member


Topic author
BobUkPipedream
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:56 am
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Dyer
Location: Salisbury, UK

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobUkPipedream » Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:03 pm

Hi All,

So, it’s a new year and still no response from Scat… They never did come back and I know many on here will feel that we should be grateful that they provide replacements shafts, but not even replying to emails to a customer who spent $1500 is just rude.

However everything has moved on. Langs were very helpful and gave me a discount to help cover cost of straightening the shaft. So after some fear, trepidation and such, I now have a straight crank shaft (well at 0.00025 or so, blimin straight enough!) and need to begin the reassembly process.

Thanks to everyone for the advice and thanks to Langs for being so helpful.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6428
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Scott_Conger » Sat Jan 07, 2023 5:29 pm

Bob

thank you for the update and congratulations on getting this resolved to a point where this part is now useable

Lang's

thank you for resolving this unfortunately at your expense, in spite of having had absolutely no foreknowledge of the defect, or actual responsibility that I can see, for the problem found with the part.
this speaks volumes for the character and business practices that you adhere to for the benefit of the hobby...kudos to you

Post Script: as for the lack of response from SCAT, I am suspicious that it may stem from the fact that they were receiving a problem/complaint from someone who was never on record as being a customer. Even if drop-shipped from SCAT to Bob, I'll bet that the actual listed customer was "Lang's" and that nowhere in the book keeping system can customer "Bob in UK" be found. Given the size of SCAT and the fact that it is no longer a "family" business, these kinds of disconnects can happen quickly and become a permanent flaw in the business model. So again, "kudos" to Lang's for resolving this and quite likely eating the cost of a problem not of their own making. Recouping THAT cost will, and should be (if it is in fact ever recouped), invisible to the hobby.
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Gracie'sDad
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:58 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Dow
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: Leawood, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 32344
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Gracie'sDad » Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:30 am

Still another reason why I prefer to do business with Lang's.

User avatar

dykker5502
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:01 pm
First Name: Michael
Last Name: Deichmann
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1921 Roadster P/U, 1922 Fordor (danish custom body)
Location: Rågeleje, Denmark
MTFCA Number: 29116
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by dykker5502 » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:22 am

Interesting thread since I am also considering to build a "drivers engine" to my 'Roadster Pick-up - and also considering buying it via Langs.

Bob - I think the reason you did not get a reply from SCAT could very well be that you where not directly a customer of theirs. You where customer at Langs and they also lived up to their responsibilities and settle the issue. We can't know to what extend SCAT have then covered the cost for Langs, but Langs is the customer at SCAT - not you.

So it all ended well. Now I will prepare to set up some "Reception quality Control" so I can check the crank before assembling the engine.
Ford Model T 1914 Touring
Ford Model T 1921 Roadster Pick-up
Ford Model T 1922 Fordor (danish build body)
ECCT, Strobospark, HCCT(Sold), Rebuilding coils


tdump
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:00 pm
First Name: Mack
Last Name: Cole
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: TT. T express pickup,speedster project.
Location: North Carolina
MTFCA Number: 28146

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by tdump » Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:59 am

Although the crankshaft was bought thru Langs, it is difficult for me to understand why Scat wouldn't at least answer a email.
If you buy a new vehicle,and you raise enough cane, the manufacturer will step up.
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by TXGOAT2 » Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:14 am

Things go so much better when manufacturers do the stepping-up prior to an item's retail sale, and if somehow a problem item gets into a customer's hands, promptly "make good".


Topic author
BobUkPipedream
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:56 am
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Dyer
Location: Salisbury, UK

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobUkPipedream » Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:08 pm

Just to add, I am not sure Scat ever replied to Langs either… They had not when I made my decision to accept Lang’s offer.

I ended up straightening the crank myself. This was in part due to a recent bad experience with an engineering firm who twisted my con rods whilst charging me an exorbitant sum for boring out the Babbitt. Nevertheless messing with the crank was not fun as to mess with such an expensive part feels wrong and brings with it risk that I had not really wanted to take. However the result was good and I am happy that I did it with the least stress possible (well least stress to the crank - me? I was very stressed!).


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6428
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:04 pm

Bob

thanks for the follow-up and congratulations on making it right

I wish that all such posts concluded with the end result(s) and did not leave the reader hanging...
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


Topic author
BobUkPipedream
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:56 am
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Dyer
Location: Salisbury, UK

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by BobUkPipedream » Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:36 pm

Thanks Scott,

Just in case future people have a similar problem and wonder how I did it, here is the final video which I hesitate to post as it is not very good and I feel quite self conscious…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6DsNxP9hio
if people prefer not to click on YouTube, then I used a modified pipe bender. I had planned to buy a hydraulic press, but just as I went to click ‘buy’ I realised that it would struggle to fit in the sort of press I could afford as the length would be difficult to accommodate. So I added some bars to my pipe bender so the crank would sit above it:
804CD876-49F1-40C4-B782-1546B96C50A3.jpeg
My pipe bender is 12 ton, but I think I only used a very small portion of that capacity - perhaps as small as 1-2 tons. I did it in three hits. The first one shifted it 1 thou, 2nd time it was about another thou and the the final time, it went to just about perfect. People talked about elasticity of the Model T cranks, I am not sure the Scat has the same elastic nature, but I have measured it yesterday a few days after I straightened it and it is still where I left it at under half a thou from straight (0.0005 that is), so it is stable. Now I am just waiting on my con rods and then it will be reassembly time.


Luke
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:04 am
First Name: Luke
Last Name: P
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
Location: New Zealand

Re: Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by Luke » Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:25 pm

Like Bob I live in a land foreign to the U.S. where these cranks are made, thus any overseas purchase always carries a significantly higher degree of risk than if one was buying locally.

A lot of the risk is simply around being able to directly address a problem if it should arise. There's nothing like getting on the 'phone or fronting up to a place in order to have something sorted out and, if that should prove ineffective, a common judicial system is available.

For common low value items, such as I get from China for some of the T projects I've initiated, the cost, and thus risk is low. Moreover should they not arrive it's usually easy to borrow something locally 'till the replacement shipment turns up, so one doesn't get too bothered should there be an issue. That said they've been generally very good.

However with an expensive specialist precision item such as a crank the cost+risk is high, as are the expectations of good service. Even were I in the U.S. I'd be expecting a high degree of care in the manufacture and delivery of such a piece; all the more so because, 'till now, I thought SCAT had a good name, one they'd want to protect.

Sadly that name, for me at least, is now sullied. It's not about the original issue since I recognise that sometimes bad things happen, rather it's about 'putting it right' when it the poo hits the whirly thing. It's about ensuring your customer - wherever he or she is in the chain - is happy with the product, and knows that you will do your utmost to ensure you have a good experience with the thing you've made for them.

Occasionally you'll get a customer you can't satisfy no matter what, or things get beyond normal control, and in this instance I've been careful to consider what Bob and others have been saying in order to see if I could detect fault elsewhere. That's not been evident, so I am forced to come to the inescapable conclusion that the manufacturer simply doesn't care; not about about their product, not about their name, and certainly not about their end customer.

I'm disappointed about this, I wanted to hear a good news story about SCAT; it seemed to me there was plenty of opportunity to actually enhance how people might view them. Regrettably I'm left with a feeling of distrust, and a certainty that I would now go a long way to avoid purchasing anything they made - and advise caution to anyone considering same.

That's in distinct contrast to the retailer, Lang's, who has a good name here in New Zealand. I'm pleased to have that reinforced by what I've read here, it's a shame they've been caught up in something not of their making, but kudos for putting it right.

Finally, IMV thanks and acknowledgement are also due to Bob who's raised this topic with due sincerity, has been receptive to advice, and has done us all a service in alerting us to this issue. I appreciate that he's also given credit where it is due.

Luke.

User avatar

FreighTer Jim
Posts: 1724
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:50 am
First Name: James
Last Name: Jarzabek
Location: Dayton, OH
MTFCA Number: 29562
MTFCI Number: 24398
Board Member Since: 2008
Contact:

Bent Scat crankshaft

Post by FreighTer Jim » Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:00 pm

Luke 👋

I agree with you.

FYI - my understanding is - the base crank
is manufactured overseas - imported
then finished to spec - both the Model T
and Model A use the same base crank
as possibly other applications do.

There is no reasonable explanation
for the manufacturer of the crank
to ignore their customer completely.

For awhile I was exploring the possibility
of revitalizing an American made forged
Model T crankshaft that was sold several
years ago in Minnesota - it was introduced
around the same time as the scat crank.
It was developed by a gentleman
with an engineering background.

He sold a few before he passed away
but got tired of the BS from folks
scrutinizing his product.

Dean Yoder had one of his cranks.
A few Model T guys had put them
in their engines with success.

Sadly - no one I contacted knew how
to get ahold of his family or if the
“ recipe “ or specs for his forged
crankshaft still existed.

As time passes - Quality
increasingly seems to be turning out
to be a thing of the past as well.

I spoke with a friend a few days ago
who is actively involved in the antique
car hobby both as a sought after expert
mechanic and as the manager of
a Billionaire ‘s Private Collection in
West Palm Beach, Florida that I was
fortunate enough to view in
person last year and get a personal
guided tour with my friend.

My friend was at Pebble Beach where there is a
huge upheaval developing in the car show & auction
market with major players fighting for
a piece of a shrinking pie - it will
impact the hobby in a negative way.

My friend was particularly upset
with at least one of the major carriers
that had heavily damaged more than
one historically & economically valuable
vehicle during loading & unloading
by having inexperienced and careless
employees handle it.

He was - quite simply - Disgusted.


FJ
Google “ Model T Transport “
MTFCA - MTFCI - MAFCA Member

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic