Warford transmission bearings
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Topic author - Posts: 66
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- First Name: Roger
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Warford transmission bearings
I've got a couple questions on Warford transmissions. First, are the gears/bearings in the aluminum case and the cast iron case, the same? Second, I see that there are replacement bearing sets available but they are listed as fitting either the 1923-24 Warfords or the 1925-27 version. Is there a way to date when these transmissions were built . . . I don't see any serial numbers stamped on the cases? I've check back on the forum and while finding a lot of Warford threads, I didn't find anything that gave answers to these questions.
Preserving Mechanical History for Future Generations since 1965
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Re: Warford transmission bearings
Roger,
I found the bearing cross reference here on the Forum. Yes there are two different size bearings, I don't remember which bearings are different, but what I did was pull the old bearings and get the numbers and then check them against the reference list. I was able to order all the bearings from a local bearing house. They had a few in stock and the rest they ordered and I had them in less than a week.
The only bearing that is a problem is what I learned was called a "spigot bearing" it is the bearing located in the middle of the upper shaft. The original bearing is unavailable, and if by chance you find what looks like a cross reference it will be wrong. The angle of the bearing is wrong, and will not fit the race, which is ground at the back of upper shaft. There was a post of someone having their gear/race machined to accept the replacement.
I checked my original bearing and chose to go with it, and replace all the other bearings.
Hope this helps, its been about 3 or 4 years ago, so you are getting one old mans memory! HA!
Good luck,
Kevin
I found the bearing cross reference here on the Forum. Yes there are two different size bearings, I don't remember which bearings are different, but what I did was pull the old bearings and get the numbers and then check them against the reference list. I was able to order all the bearings from a local bearing house. They had a few in stock and the rest they ordered and I had them in less than a week.
The only bearing that is a problem is what I learned was called a "spigot bearing" it is the bearing located in the middle of the upper shaft. The original bearing is unavailable, and if by chance you find what looks like a cross reference it will be wrong. The angle of the bearing is wrong, and will not fit the race, which is ground at the back of upper shaft. There was a post of someone having their gear/race machined to accept the replacement.
I checked my original bearing and chose to go with it, and replace all the other bearings.
Hope this helps, its been about 3 or 4 years ago, so you are getting one old mans memory! HA!
Good luck,
Kevin
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Re: Warford transmission bearings
Hello Roger,
Yes there are several differences. Attached are charts I created many years ago when I had access to several six speed Warford's.
A quick summary of other differences not covered by the charts:
1) The input and output shafts are different on the AL and CI Warfords. The square on the CI is smaller to go into a u-joint instead of into the rear of the transmission. The CI uses a larger bearing between the input and output shafts.
2) Under driver gear ration is different between the AL and CI Warfords.
3) The gears are removable from the counter shaft. Early counter shafts are a smaller diameter than later counter shafts. My best recollection is the change was made on AL Warfords some where around SN 50,000. They and gears and interchangeable on the shaft between AL and CI after that SN.
4) There were three different shifter towers that I am aware of. Early and later AL and then the CI case.
This is a quick summary of what I recall off the top of my head.
Yes there are several differences. Attached are charts I created many years ago when I had access to several six speed Warford's.
A quick summary of other differences not covered by the charts:
1) The input and output shafts are different on the AL and CI Warfords. The square on the CI is smaller to go into a u-joint instead of into the rear of the transmission. The CI uses a larger bearing between the input and output shafts.
2) Under driver gear ration is different between the AL and CI Warfords.
3) The gears are removable from the counter shaft. Early counter shafts are a smaller diameter than later counter shafts. My best recollection is the change was made on AL Warfords some where around SN 50,000. They and gears and interchangeable on the shaft between AL and CI after that SN.
4) There were three different shifter towers that I am aware of. Early and later AL and then the CI case.
This is a quick summary of what I recall off the top of my head.
- Attachments
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- Warford Final Gear Ratios.pdf
- (38.03 KiB) Downloaded 80 times
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- Warford Bearings.pdf
- (14.83 KiB) Downloaded 78 times
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Re: Warford transmission bearings
Its been a long time since i have jumped in on a discussion here (had to build a new account), but i found this thread and needed to jump in. I have both an AL case and a CI case that need new bearings. The Iron case cross-reference list is excellent.
Does anyone have a bearing list for the AL case versions since they are so drastically different?
The aluminum case is slated for my 1919 Depot Hack and the Iron case is for my 1924 TT..
Aluminum Case SN# 67797
Cast Iron Case SN# 93325
~Clayton
Does anyone have a bearing list for the AL case versions since they are so drastically different?
The aluminum case is slated for my 1919 Depot Hack and the Iron case is for my 1924 TT..
Aluminum Case SN# 67797
Cast Iron Case SN# 93325
~Clayton
Clayton Paddison "Mr. Model T"
1908 Model S Runabout
1919 Depot Hack
1924 TT 1-Ton
1927 Roadster "Gowjob"
1908 Model S Runabout
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Re: Warford transmission bearings
I've got a leaky warford I need to address sometime, and a couple parts boxes as well, seems like there should be an official Warford thread around here to address general questions on these gearboxes.
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Re: Warford transmission bearings
I'm inclined to agree. A Warford sub-forum would be nice.
Clayton Paddison "Mr. Model T"
1908 Model S Runabout
1919 Depot Hack
1924 TT 1-Ton
1927 Roadster "Gowjob"
1908 Model S Runabout
1919 Depot Hack
1924 TT 1-Ton
1927 Roadster "Gowjob"
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Re: Warford transmission bearings
Hi guys,
I have heard many conversations about the interchangeability of cast iron vs aluminum warfords and have not tryed to interchange them
What I have found is that some/most aluminum Warfords input & output bearings interchange with model A & can be replaced with
modern sealed ball bearings like a Muncie. I have been lucky enough to have had most counter shaft & pocket bearings in good condition.
keep in mind that the pocket/spiget bearing turns at the under & over ratio & doesn't turn in direct so one that is not real shiny is probubly
OK. As I undertand the square on a aluminum Warford is 7/8" and fits into the output shaft of a T trans. and the input of the cast iron is 13/16"
to fit into the T u/joint so it's nessesary to use the coupling. I have been told that the main shaft bearings are differant between the iron &
aluminum transmissions but have not had to find out for myself.
I will be putting a aluminum Warford in my next project but have had very good service from the Muncie in my firetruck.
Craig.
I have heard many conversations about the interchangeability of cast iron vs aluminum warfords and have not tryed to interchange them
What I have found is that some/most aluminum Warfords input & output bearings interchange with model A & can be replaced with
modern sealed ball bearings like a Muncie. I have been lucky enough to have had most counter shaft & pocket bearings in good condition.
keep in mind that the pocket/spiget bearing turns at the under & over ratio & doesn't turn in direct so one that is not real shiny is probubly
OK. As I undertand the square on a aluminum Warford is 7/8" and fits into the output shaft of a T trans. and the input of the cast iron is 13/16"
to fit into the T u/joint so it's nessesary to use the coupling. I have been told that the main shaft bearings are differant between the iron &
aluminum transmissions but have not had to find out for myself.
I will be putting a aluminum Warford in my next project but have had very good service from the Muncie in my firetruck.
Craig.
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Re: Warford transmission bearings
I blew apart both an Iron Case and my Aluminum Case and compared them.Craig Leach wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:36 amHi guys,
I have heard many conversations about the interchangeability of cast iron vs aluminum warfords and have not tryed to interchange them
What I have found is that some/most aluminum Warfords input & output bearings interchange with model A & can be replaced with
modern sealed ball bearings like a Muncie. I have been lucky enough to have had most counter shaft & pocket bearings in good condition.
keep in mind that the pocket/spiget bearing turns at the under & over ratio & doesn't turn in direct so one that is not real shiny is probubly
OK. As I undertand the square on a aluminum Warford is 7/8" and fits into the output shaft of a T trans. and the input of the cast iron is 13/16"
to fit into the T u/joint so it's nessesary to use the coupling. I have been told that the main shaft bearings are differant between the iron &
aluminum transmissions but have not had to find out for myself.
I will be putting a aluminum Warford in my next project but have had very good service from the Muncie in my firetruck.
Craig.
While they do have a lot of obvious similarities, there are major differences between the two.
The gearing for the Aluminum case is very different (different ratios, tooth counts and sizes) and the bearings are smaller and different then the ones used in the Iron case, which is why I am hoping someone has a Aluminum Case bearing cross-reference list. They don't really seem to interchange with each other at all and you definitely can't mix and match parts. I don't know if my AL case is an early one or not and I suspect my personal Iron case is a '23-'24, but I need to check bearings to confirm.
I think you could swap an entire Iron Case gearset into an Aluminum case provided you changed the bearings, but I can't say with certainly.
This is all purely observation on my part.
~Clayton
Clayton Paddison "Mr. Model T"
1908 Model S Runabout
1919 Depot Hack
1924 TT 1-Ton
1927 Roadster "Gowjob"
1908 Model S Runabout
1919 Depot Hack
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Re: Warford transmission bearings
this may be what you are looking for.
Craig.-
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Re: Warford transmission bearings
Craig, that is exactly what I need. I had seen this list earlier, but like a moron did not realize that the '23-'24 style IS the aluminum case and the later '25-'27 style is the Iron case.Craig Leach wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:57 amthis may be what you are looking for. Warford Bearings.pdfCraig.
That's what I get for looking at this at night when I'm tired..lol!
Clayton Paddison "Mr. Model T"
1908 Model S Runabout
1919 Depot Hack
1924 TT 1-Ton
1927 Roadster "Gowjob"
1908 Model S Runabout
1919 Depot Hack
1924 TT 1-Ton
1927 Roadster "Gowjob"