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1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:05 am
by cramagraham
I bought one of those fancy hood ornaments and the thing won't screw in right. I have tried adding some rubber rings aka gaskets to supplement it but it still won't fasten correctly. When i screw it on it tightens north south not east west. . . regardless of the gaskets. I have come to the conclusion that to make this work I probably will need a new filler neck. The question is: Can this even be done? I don't see any bolts holding it on. It looks like its pressed on or maybe welded. I am not super technical with this stuff. Any knowledge on this?

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:13 am
by Scott_Conger
Brian

unless your threads are so worn that they are stripping, there is no magic to it. I suspect that the gaskets you are using are too thin, and the bottom of your new cap is simply not bottoming onto it/them. If it was, you'd feel it and you'd easily be able to sock it down enough to get the extra 90 degrees of rotation you are looking for. Or more correctly, 90 degrees less than before.

one, possibly two of these and you're golden: https://www.modeltford.com/item/3927M.aspx

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:17 am
by TXGOAT2
The radiator neck is soldered in place. I'd leave it alone. You should be able to add enough gaskets or shims to get the cap to stay where you want it. The radiator is not very strong, so don't use force on it. The cap does not need to be very tight. It is usually not necessary to have all the cap threads engaged, but about 3/4 of them, or more, ought to be engaged when the cap is snug. How far into the neck the cap screws in depends on how worn the threads are and how thick the gasket (s) are. Again, the cap does not need to be tight, only snug.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:19 am
by Norman Kling
I don't know what kind of "ornament" you mean. Only ones I am experienced with are Motometers. I buy a rubber gasket made for a sink drain at ACE hardware. They do make one which just fits. Put it in the neck. Then there is some "give" when you screw it in. You might also need a thin paper gasket, but usually you can with a series of gaskets, get it oriented unless the threads in your neck are worn out.
The neck is usually fastened to the top of the tank with rivets and then soldered all around. This would be a job for a radiator shop unless you are an expert with that type work. Whether or not new necks are available? I don't know.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:01 am
by TRDxB2
cramagraham wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:05 am
I bought one of those fancy hood ornaments and the thing won't screw in right. I have tried adding some rubber rings aka gaskets to supplement it but it still won't fasten correctly. When i screw it on it tightens north south not east west. . . regardless of the gaskets. I have come to the conclusion that to make this work I probably will need a new filler neck. The question is: Can this even be done? I don't see any bolts holding it on. It looks like its pressed on or maybe welded. I am not super technical with this stuff. Any knowledge on this?

Please clarify "When i screw it on it tightens north south not east west."
1. How does the old Model T cap fit - is it also loose N & S
2. What does he base of the fancy ornament look like - perfectly round - is is Model T cap with something affixed to it?
3. Is your radiator original, Brass works or Bergs?

Need closeup pictures of the filler neck, base and ornament, for all to understand better.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:03 am
by cramagraham
Scott_Conger wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:13 am
Brian

unless your threads are so worn that they are stripping, there is no magic to it. I suspect that the gaskets you are using are too thin, and the bottom of your new cap is simply not bottoming onto it/them. If it was, you'd feel it and you'd easily be able to sock it down enough to get the extra 90 degrees of rotation you are looking for. Or more correctly, 90 degrees less than before.

one, possibly two of these and you're golden: https://www.modeltford.com/item/3927M.aspx
The threads might be worn. I never thought of that. But that little brass cap fit in pretty well. Those are the gaskets that i have. Me and dad tried using those we bought two and tried every which way. My uncle jimmy has a new model T and also tried. So if it is the threads how would I replace?

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:08 am
by cramagraham
Norman Kling wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:19 am
I don't know what kind of "ornament" you mean. Only ones I am experienced with are Motometers. I buy a rubber gasket made for a sink drain at ACE hardware. They do make one which just fits. Put it in the neck. Then there is some "give" when you screw it in. You might also need a thin paper gasket, but usually you can with a series of gaskets, get it oriented unless the threads in your neck are worn out.
The neck is usually fastened to the top of the tank with rivets and then soldered all around. This would be a job for a radiator shop unless you are an expert with that type work. Whether or not new necks are available? I don't know.
Its this thing here

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:12 am
by cramagraham
TRDxB2 wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:01 am
cramagraham wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:05 am
I bought one of those fancy hood ornaments and the thing won't screw in right. I have tried adding some rubber rings aka gaskets to supplement it but it still won't fasten correctly. When i screw it on it tightens north south not east west. . . regardless of the gaskets. I have come to the conclusion that to make this work I probably will need a new filler neck. The question is: Can this even be done? I don't see any bolts holding it on. It looks like its pressed on or maybe welded. I am not super technical with this stuff. Any knowledge on this?

Please clarify "When i screw it on it tightens north south not east west."
1. How does the old Model T cap fit - is it also loose N & S
2. What does he base of the fancy ornament look like - perfectly round - is is Model T cap with something affixed to it?
3. Is your radiator original, Brass works or Bergs?

Need closeup pictures of the filler neck, base and ornament, for all to understand better.
See picture below. North south meaning when i am looking at the radiator from the front the wings are pointing to me and the windshield instead of pointing to the front wheels. That is where is screws to. I wish i had better pictures but i am at work.

Radiator is original yes. i attached a pic of the moto meter that we bought for it.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:14 am
by Scott_Conger
I know exactly what you're putting on and I know exactly what you mean by north/south, but thank you for being explicit.

the thick gaskets I'm trying to lead you to will solve your problem. Removing and replacing the neck of the radiator will not.

Call Langs...tell them your trouble, and they will sell you the gasket or gaskets I've recommended. Problem solved.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:16 am
by cramagraham
Scott_Conger wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:13 am
Brian

unless your threads are so worn that they are stripping, there is no magic to it. I suspect that the gaskets you are using are too thin, and the bottom of your new cap is simply not bottoming onto it/them. If it was, you'd feel it and you'd easily be able to sock it down enough to get the extra 90 degrees of rotation you are looking for. Or more correctly, 90 degrees less than before.

one, possibly two of these and you're golden: https://www.modeltford.com/item/3927M.aspx
It has to be stripped I suppose. Called langs and they said home depot had the exact same thing for like 4 bucks and i bought it there instead. They fit perfectly but it just does not fit tightly. with or without the gaskets it still tightens in the same place. online there are Necks for around 35 bucks which is fine. There has to be some kind of adaptor or gasket to go around the threads to maybe just mash it down in there for it to hold?

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:31 am
by Scott_Conger
If you truly are stumped, you may try a few wraps of Teflon pipe tape and it will screw in a bit tighter and you can simply "stop" at the location you want. It will allow the sharp threads of the new motometer to bite into the worn neck threads a bit tighter and you'll be fine. This isn't a guess or opinion...it is something I've done periodically on cars, for years. No harm comes to any of the components and it works like a charm. You may have to experiment with how many "wraps" to put on, but usually 2 complete wraps seems to snug things up for me.

now, be aware that as nice as these things look, they're heavy and if you travel on bumpy roads you run a bit of a risk of fracturing the solder at the base of the neck and losing everything along the road. Not trying to frighten you, but it occasionally happens to folks. Not often, but sometimes.

welcome to the Forum

have fun

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:53 am
by cramagraham
Scott_Conger wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:31 am
If you truly are stumped, you may try a few wraps of Teflon pipe tape and it will screw in a bit tighter and you can simply "stop" at the location you want. It will allow the sharp threads of the new motometer to bite into the worn neck threads a bit tighter and you'll be fine. This isn't a guess or opinion...it is something I've done periodically on cars, for years. No harm comes to any of the components and it works like a charm. You may have to experiment with how many "wraps" to put on, but usually 2 complete wraps seems to snug things up for me.

now, be aware that as nice as these things look, they're heavy and if you travel on bumpy roads you run a bit of a risk of fracturing the solder at the base of the neck and losing everything along the road. Not trying to frighten you, but it occasionally happens to folks. Not often, but sometimes.

welcome to the Forum

have fun

Have gone the way of the plumbers tape as well. The darn stuff never stays flat when wrapping. Not a big fan. Would electrical tape work maybe? I mean we have tried just about everything thats why we are looking at replacing the neck. There are nothing but bumpy roads around here. lol. Ive had my fair share of issues...wires burning... fuel enrichner getting stuck..vapor lock etc. None of its fun haha. Just try and explain to someone how to shift is ridiculous in itself. I had a problem where the exhaust was blowing hot heat through the fireboard and i added aluminum sheets to the floor boards and that fixed it. This however is a riddle from the Model T gods. Just does not seem fair. Stupid thing tightens in the wrong spot and i feel there HAS to be SOMETHING that can alleviate this. Do you know of a gasket that will fit flush around the threads themselves? or is that what you are saying with the pipe tape? just wrap it until i can mash it down in there and get it where i want it?

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:11 pm
by Steve Jelf
Scott's last comment is the reason I use a stock radiator cap. I drive on country roads a lot, which sometimes means washboard or other rough spots, and I don't want a lot of weight bouncing or vibrating on top of my filler neck.



IMG_3469.JPG


IMG_3469 copy.JPG
Since this happened I screw the cap down tight, not just snug.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:14 pm
by TXGOAT2
I just snug my stock cap in my Berg radiator. It never moves.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:15 pm
by TXGOAT2
A close up picture of the threads inside your filler neck may be helpful. They should look just like the threads on the new cap.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:23 pm
by TRDxB2
I understood the direction North/South & East/West but was trying to confirm if the movement was in the new cap movement in the water neck and not the water neck flexing.

Some previous discussion mention that original necks were pressed in (some Brassworks too). And pros & cons of ornaments
viewtopic.php?t=21127
viewtopic.php?t=23089
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/4 ... 1404072179

This is the gasket that Lang's mentioned that hardware stores sell - 2inch pop-up plug washer

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:37 pm
by Humblej
I would advise against modifying an $800 radiator to accommodate an $80 non-Ford aftermarket repop radiator cap. A stack of washers should solve the alignment problem.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:56 pm
by jab35
Brian: Welcome to the forum.

On my screen the view of the radiator neck in the first photo appears to be such that the top of the neck is angled to the passenger side as if it has been knocked or bent in that direction. It certainly is not centered in the shroud. If it has been knocked/bent, it's also possible that the neck is out of round, and that could be preventing full thread engagement of any radiator cap or appliance. If you have added the recommended gaskets to no avail, the problem might be lack of full thread engagement, the new 'cap' may not screw down into the neck sufficiently to make contact with the gasket(s). Again a closer view inside the neck would help determine if this is the issue. And if the neck is out of round, bent or damaged, be very careful in straightening it, you can easily cause more damage than you correct. And if the bent neck is an optical illusion, don't mess with it or the shroud. If the dogbone is horizontal with the proper thread engagement, the neck ok, and adding gaskets should be sufficient to get tight while pointing 'true North'.

Good luck, jb

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:21 pm
by schwabd1
If the cap tightens up, just not straight, how can that be worn threads?

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:56 pm
by cramagraham
See thats what i mean. its almost like the model t gods are laughing at me.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:05 pm
by TRDxB2
schwabd1 wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:21 pm
If the cap tightens up, just not straight, how can that be worn threads?
I think there is some confusion when you say "if the cap tightens up" and when you say " When I screw it on it tightens north south not east west".
If the cap were tight all around it would not be loose in the neck in the any direction. So if the inside of the neck were out of round (bent or threads) it might account for the movement you described. Then again, maybe the cap is at issue?

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:33 pm
by Allan
Different thickness gaskets will allow different orientation of the dogbone ears.

If the dogbone is bottoming out on the base when you screw it in, you could also machine/sand/file a little off the base of the dogbone thread, allowing it to screw a little further round.

Brassworks radiator necks are soldered in place. I know this because I had to shift one for the radiator shell to fit. Original radiators are different. The top plate has a flange bent upwards into the base of the radiator neck. When the neck is fitted, the flange is bent down to capture the rolled-in base of the neck. Thus the joint has a mechanical element to it, which is then sealed by soldering. This makes a joint which will support more weight of an accessory cap better than one which relies solely on the solder joint.

Allan from down under.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:59 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
Oh my gosh... His cap tightens up 90 degrees from where it should be. The threads are fine, or it wouldn't tighten at all. He needs more washers under the cap.

Brian,

Measure the depth of your radiator neck, from the top edge, down to the shoulder where the gasket sits. Measure it with no gasket in place. Then measure the length of the cap threads. I'll bet the neck is way deeper than the cap threads are long. The difference in the 2 lengths, is the minimum thickness that your gasket stack should be. In fact, the stack should be just a bit thicker.

cap2.png

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:22 pm
by cramagraham
Holy cow I never thought of this. This is probably it exactly. What should I use around the cap threads to block them?

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:26 pm
by speedytinc
Nothing on the threads. Your gasket/spacer will keep any fluids from weeping up the threads. This is an open, no pressure system.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:30 pm
by cramagraham
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:59 pm
Oh my gosh... His cap tightens up 90 degrees from where it should be. The threads are fine, or it wouldn't tighten at all. He needs more washers under the cap.

Brian,

Measure the depth of your radiator neck, from the top edge, down to the shoulder where the gasket sits. Measure it with no gasket in place. Then measure the length of the cap threads. I'll bet the neck is way deeper than the cap threads are long. The difference in the 2 lengths, is the minimum thickness that your gasket stack should be. In fact, the stack should be just a bit thicker.


cap2.png


Here are some more pictures and hopefully these will help.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:40 pm
by TXGOAT2
If you put enough shims under it, you can make it snug up anywhere you want it to.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:18 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
TXGOAT2 wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:40 pm
If you put enough shims [gaskets] under it, you can make it snug up anywhere you want it to.
YES! Do what Pat says.

If it takes 6, (or more, or less), gaskets to make it work, then so be it. Keep adding gaskets till you get what you want. I don't know how to state it any clearer than that.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:23 pm
by cramagraham
Allan wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:33 pm
Different thickness gaskets will allow different orientation of the dogbone ears.

If the dogbone is bottoming out on the base when you screw it in, you could also machine/sand/file a little off the base of the dogbone thread, allowing it to screw a little further round.

Brassworks radiator necks are soldered in place. I know this because I had to shift one for the radiator shell to fit. Original radiators are different. The top plate has a flange bent upwards into the base of the radiator neck. When the neck is fitted, the flange is bent down to capture the rolled-in base of the neck. Thus the joint has a mechanical element to it, which is then sealed by soldering. This makes a joint which will support more weight of an accessory cap better than one which relies solely on the solder joint.

Allan from down under.
Did you see my added pictures? The problem seems that it only bites on the neck threads when its near the bottom of the neck.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:20 pm
by Mark Nunn
Does your neck have a hairline crack that would let it expand rather than grasping threads? My old radiator had cracks and was "fixed" by someone with a standard hose clamp.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:47 pm
by Jerry VanOoteghem
cramagraham wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:23 pm

Did you see my added pictures? The problem seems that it only bites on the neck threads when its near the bottom of the neck.
I'm not sure that the pictures really show that. Does the regular T radiator cap do the same thing? Can you show a good picture of the moto meter threads?

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:30 pm
by Scott_Conger
You have a paper gasket in there.

You'd need like 20 of those to make the dogbone seat on it

the Langs rubber gasket is, perhaps, 1/8" thick

either 1 or two of those langs gaskets (probably 1) will snug the dogbone long before it bottoms out on the top edge of the neck

or, as I mentioned before, wrap 1, 2 or 3 wraps of teflon pipe tape on the dogbone threads which will physically "enlarge" the threads and will be an interference fit all the way to where you want to leave it facing...meaning 3/4 of a turn shy of where it is seating at now

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:13 am
by cramagraham
Yeah my dad was supposed to show that in the picture but he failed to do so. The mere fact that he was able to use his smart phone and take pictures and send them to me was mind blowing in itself...lol.

Re: 1918 Ford Model T Filler Neck questions

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:14 am
by cramagraham
Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:47 pm
cramagraham wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:23 pm

Did you see my added pictures? The problem seems that it only bites on the neck threads when its near the bottom of the neck.
I'm not sure that the pictures really show that. Does the regular T radiator cap do the same thing? Can you show a good picture of the moto meter threads?
This I have not even thought about trying which sounds like it might work. Just a regular old clamp with the screw on it? Do you think maybe even a metal ziptie?