MTFCA Forum

How old are the tires on your Model T driver?
I am not asking about the trailer queens or cars that rest in the back corner;
but those who put serious miles on their T's every year.
At what age would you consider them unsafe?
For example, my white 1913 speedster with clinchers has old NZ tires that were
almost too hard to mount (but new) that were installed in 1995.
There are well over 15 000 miles on them and the rears will
need replacement this summer because of tread wear.
I have experienced one flat which occurred when I hit a railway
track too fast and blew a front tire off the rim (exploded the tube).
What have your experiences been?
Harry Lillo
Calgary

Harry, I did several National Tours and umpteen Regional tours as well as traversing all of Florida on 4 Wards Riversides tires which dated back to the '50's.

Eventually, I was sideswiped by a pot-smoker in a Neon, who kinked my LR demountable rim, exposing some of the outer bead on the tire. It was so stiff, that I finished the tour on that wheel/tire, with the bead dutifully remaining in the rim with the exception of the area where the rim was pulled out. Her car was totaled and had to be towed away.

I needed to reform/repair that rim and sadly, I damaged the tire upon it's removal, so replaced both rears with new Riversides (and the old original Wards tubes). Sharp road debris has since destroyed 2 RR new tires and am on the 3rd new tire (debris which the front tires laughed at, but killed the new ones). Both rears are showing wear with 3000 miles, while the '50's tires still on the front are just now showing wear and they have many thousand miles on them. They are rock hard and will not go fully flat if deflated. They show spiderwebbing all over but no evidence of future failure. Right now, and for the past 5 years, they have puttered along rock roads, which have been harder on them than the previous 10 years of heavy use on pavement.

That is in contrast with Arkansas, USA Universal ribbed tires on a museum car which were pristine when I serviced the car to tour, and found that my thumbnail could carve off large chunks of rubber. Sadly, though appearing pristine, those old white tires were more like stale play-doh than rubber, had to come off.

I don't live in Texas, so I do not run these tires at 45MPH. It's a T, and I drive it at it's designed speed...a speed which I believe it is generally recoverable in the event of a tire failure (of any vintage).

Finally, I am simply answering a question and am in no way suggesting that anyone else consider emulating me with regard to the use of old tires.

Well lesseeee....on my '13 touring I'm on my second set of universal white ribbed, each set gonna just barely make 4K miles per set. The Torpedo I just put a new set of Ward Riversides this fall so cant tell ya yet. And the '25 Fordor came with new Firestone balloon tires, I think I have almost 1500 miles on those since I got the car and they're like new yet. Not much help here but thats my story!

I just replaced the set of tires I put on in 1978. No cracks, not hard, just worn. And I reused the old tubes with the new tires.

I have boasted several times on my Rusty Coupe tires (Firestones) being purchased in 1964 (58 yrs?). I still drive on them with a few flats a year. They are as safe as needed for around town. The Speedster tires (Lincolns) are about 35 years old and fine. Tudor (Universal T-Driver) 25 and fine. "15 Runabout, (Universal T-Driver) 35 and fine. '09 tires (Universal T-Driver) 30 and fine.
I have a set of Riversides and another set of Firestones that are about 60 years old with cracks but still have life left. I haven't bought tires since 1992 so I can't comment on them.
Rich

I have three firestones (one for spare) and two wards riversides that I bought used in 1981. They are cracked but fine for around town. Never had an on the road flat. Heck, even in my modern cars I can only remember once having a flat in my 45+ years of driving. I guess I'm lucky.

I just picked up my 1925 roadster in October and the previous owner said the tires were put on in the late 1960's. It probably hasn't run since that time as they have major dry rot cracks, but tread like new.

Clean them up real good & seal with vinal top wax.
Current equivalent: mop & glow liquid floor wax.

Old tires scare me. When I restored my car it had a set of tires that looked like they had new tread, but there was some dry rot, sidewall cracking and they were at least 20 years old. I know a lot of people that would have just run them as they were, but I replaced them with new Firestones. I feel better knowing that I have all new tires and tubes on all four wheels and I inspect them often to make sure there is no damage to the tire or rim. Maybe I am too picky about tires, but they are the only part of the car that is touching the road.

You are good to be concerned Bryan. Safety should be first on our minds.
we should do whatever it takes to be comfortable.
I have been comfortable taking risks and have been lucky but that shouldn't deter anyone from being safe.
Rich

It depends on how far you drive and at what speed. If you just drive a few miles around town at 25-30 mph and can call someone to come to help you if you have a problem. That's one thing. Our club sometimes drives 100 miles round trip or even one staying overnight and moving on to another location the next night. On some local tours we don't even have a truck and trailer following us, so we need to fix things along the way if we have a problem. Sometimes we get up to 40 or more mph if on a straight fairly level road. In those cases, it is good to have the best tires you can get on the car because stopping and starting is hard on the back tires and turning is hard on the front ones. Especially if you blow a front tire going too fast around a turn you can flip your car. So safety is the best and healthiest policy for you and your car as well as any passengers you might have aboard.
Norm

Mine were new in 1976. No cracks, no problems. Had Monkey Wards before that - roughly the same age.

Those that know me well, I'm sure are waiting for me to respond to this. Old #4, the car that we drive the most in recent years on long trips carries no spare tire, as is typical of oval track race cars. All of my tires are old Wards Riversides 50+ years old. (I don't remember when Monkey Wards stopped making them) I've always considered them the best tire ever made for a Model T Ford, and under my ownership old #4 has never had any other brand. Several years ago close friend John Morrison called me and said "I just bought Kober's old 12 touring" (known history since new) " and the old Riverside tires are worn, so I need some good ones as I want to continue tradition, that's the only kind it's ever had" . I helped him out and he also found some NOS after running a wanted ad. That lit the fire reminding me that I should stock up before they become impossible to find, so I began collecting and now have more than I'll ever need in my lifetime. Have I had any tire problems? Almost never, otherwise I'd change my plan. Are there age cracks? Sometimes lots! Have I worn some out, you bet! Are they hard to mount? Absolutely! But I sure love the durability. I never have a tire worry.

Ed aka #4

When did Fisk stop making tires?

I think tires that have Nylon casings make a huge difference. I would be tempted to use Nylon casing tires that are very old and are very weather-checked much more than I would be tempted to use old "non-Nylon" tires of the same old and weather-checked appearance. Not suggesting that anybody do this, but I have four Nylon "INSA" brand tires on my '27 depot hack that were on it when I bought the car many years ago, and I don't know how old they were then, and I've never even had so much as a flat tire! FWIW,.....harold

Harold, your 21" Insa tyres were made in Chile in the 1980's They do run and last well. At about the same time, Betco beaded edge tyres for T's were introduced by an Australian company. Both brands only lasted a few years. The rumour was they were bought out by the usual suspects, closed down, and we were left with the inferior rubbish on offer up until Blockley decided to make tyres suitable for purpose.

Allan from down under.

My NOS New Zealand Firestones were beautiful. Coming out of the original wrappers they looked pristine, factory fresh.


Country roads ate them up PDQ. I don't think I got 500 miles out of them.

The Tyres in my 1926 RPU are over 35 years old. Never had a puncture and they do not drop pressure year to year!
Almost Zero wear on them and look like new!
Alan In Western Australia

My 1912 touring came to me in 2015 with Firestones from 1972. The tread was excellent but a lot of checking on the sidewalls. Those tires served locally for a couple years in fine form. Foolishly I opted for safety before beginning a number of tours and replaced with four Vietstone tires that barely made it through the tour's. Late this summer cord was showing on one front tire, have replaced with Blockley's, eager to see if they live up to the hype. In truth I now wish I had never changed out those "ancient" Firestones.

I've had old cotton cord tires blow out on cars that were sitting still. Three out of four modern, load range E tires blew out on a Ford 1/2 ton pickup while it was sitting out in the pasture. Tires do rot, at least in this climate. I've had a number of modern trailer tires bulge, split, and throw tread, most had nearly no road miles and were no more than 4-5 years old. In the case of Model Ts, light vehicle weight, low horsepower, and low braking capability may contribute to old tire survival. I believe that areas with lower average temperatures are less stressful on tires than hot regions with high insolation. I rank junk tires right along with junk batteries. The highways in this area are littered with pieces of truck tires that have failed on the road.

Loftfield wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:06 am

My 1912 touring came to me in 2015 with Firestones from 1972. The tread was excellent but a lot of checking on the sidewalls. Those tires served locally for a couple years in fine form. Foolishly I opted for safety before beginning a number of tours and replaced with four Vietstone tires that barely made it through the tour's. Late this summer cord was showing on one front tire, have replaced with Blockley's, eager to see if they live up to the hype. In truth I now wish I had never changed out those "ancient" Firestones.

I've learned over the years those checking sidewalls aren't THAT big of a concern. After removing many that were probably the same as yours, I discovered those tires are TOUGH as nails! I worry a lot less about sidewall checking now, even not so much on the tread. I worry more about that random nail like the one that "nailed" my Torpedo last summer out of the clear blue sky. Oh well.

Thomas, you are having the same doubts that many in the hobby frequently come to, once experience supplants opinion. I can say with complete confidence, that on this Forum, 10 years ago, you would read only 1 posting of "I love my old tires" and 50 posts following that, pillorying that person for such an "ignorant" statement, followed with threats to report their children to protective services and impound their cars for "safety's sake".

I cannot help but imagine that this time frame coincides directly to the loss of the Depression Generation, who tended to only be fearful of throwing anything out...not worrying about anything else...Use It Up, Wear It Out, Make it Do, or Do Without was how they lived their lives after surviving the scorching life the depression dealt them as children. 10 years ago, these cars being newly purchased by a generation whose only outlook on life was "newer is better", and had zero knowledge of the quality of American Made products, and the Forum reflected that fact.

10 years of "safe" tires wearing out or flying off of rims, and folks running older tires generously carting hapless owners back to their trailer for spares, seems to have dampened (some of) the vitriol aimed at older (Model T) tires. Modern tires, Highway Speeds, Huge Loads, Stressful Dynamics...different story entirely.

A few days someone sent me a picture of ourselves visiting an old Aunt. The picture was taken in the 1980's. I realize that I still wear the sweatshirt in cooler weather when I work in the yard!. I still have a jacket I bought about 50 years ago, however, with our climate, It only gets cold enough to wear outside a few days every few years! So it is like new. I was born in the depression! When I went to school, a veteran from the Civil War used to come sit in the auditorium around Memorial day. Now I realize WW2 vets are about the same age he was! I saw Model T's on the street and parked at the curb every day when I was a boy. Grandpa's "New Car" was a Model A! Re-Caps were developed because new tires were too expensive!
Norm

My car had good tires on it when I got it. They are Lucas, Viet Nam made, 4.40/4.50 21. Age is uncertain. I've driven many thousands of trouble free miles on them, on bad gravel roads and pavement, with no flats or other issues except for what I believe to be normal wear. Front tread was about 85% to begin with, and rear tread about 65%. The right rear recently wore down to the cord, and I replaced it with one of two spare casings that came with the car. The other rear tire is now slick, but not showing cord yet. I have another spare casing which I will use to replace it when needed. The front tires are wearing very well. I keep 24 to 28 PSI in the tires and drive 40 MPH + on pavement and about 30-35 on gravel when I can find a gravel road in good condition. I slow down for bad road surfaces. I avoid traffic and do very little stop and go driving. All 4 of these tires consistently lose 2-3 PSI a week. I expected the rough, coarse, sharp gravel roads to chew up the tread on the tires, but that has not happened.

The tires I took off my 1912 touring were new in 1948 and I bought new T drivers which had the same tread pattern so about 2010 I think they still had good tread but were hard ,they are on another car but it only goes out 2 times a year. The tires were Good year. I am not expecting the same life from the T Driver Tires.

51 years ago, in 1971, I bought a brand new set of five 21” Universal tires, tubes and flaps for my 1926 coupe and they stayed on there until the early months of 2022 when I replaced them with a new set of (5) 21” Goodyear tires, tubes and flaps. They were still good and had a lot more years and miles to drive on them, but I figured while I had the tires and the time, I’d go ahead and replace them. By the fourth tire, I became an expert at removing and installing new tires on split rims with the help of my Hercules Rim Spreader. Jim Patrick

My tyres, which until now have been Universal T Drivers, wear out well before they get old enough to harden and crack. On average I drive about 2500km each year. Tyre life is about 8-10 years. Now that I've switched to Blockleys it will be interesting to compare.

Thank you to all that responded to my questions.
I am always taken with the depth of knowledge and experience of
contributors to this great Forum.
While I fully respect those who run new rubber for safety reasons
I was pleasantly surprised by the number of people running old
tires with good results. In particular those like Ed Archer who are not afraid
to run cross country (and countries) with their cars.
Keep those old tires turning.........Harry

I have probably talked too much about the old Firestones that I still drive on when I can keep the tubes full of air. Today I ran across the receipt for them in 1964.
I was a kid working at the Firestone store after school and saw they were in their catalog. I was quoted the same price as Riversides but when they arrived the price had nearly doubled. That's the price I paid for the Firestone lettering. They proved to be better in some ways as the Firestone they sold in the '70s and '80s. They weren't much better than the Riversides of the same era. I have more than a dozen of the two brands made about that time and only a couple had started to come apart. This isn't a recommendation to use them on the road. SAFETY FIRST!!!
Rich The 992.. numbers must be payments as I didn't get anything but 4 tires and 4 tubes.
It's amazing what paperwork I have held onto.

Rich, your signature states “When did I do that” looking at the paperwork it was 9-25-64

For clinchers, I'd trust tires made in 1964 more than tires made in 2023.
Once you put new ones on, you'll be replacing them a lot more often.

For 21" balloon tires, the ones made recently have been very good. I think mine are around 2017 Made in USA Firestones.

Joe, thanks for the comment.
As for newer Firestones, I went through two sets in the 70s and 80s that sild on the rims and sheared off the valve stems. It rim-cut them so they are not suitable for highway driving. I hadn't ever used flaps but started to on my third set and had no further problems. The inside texture of those changed from time to time, so they must have realized a problem. I have had reasonably good luck with Universal ribbed and the T-driver tires so far with 30 or 40 years on them.

My universal T drivers are at least 12 years old

I have 2 Insa tires on the front of my TT that are at least from the 1980s. They have a a lots of cracks but they will do for me. The rear tires may be as old or maybe a bit newer. They are Firestones and are in better shape than the fronts. A lot less cracking.

I have ones like Dan, Cokers from the early 70's made in Australia I believe. Just started to notice sidewall cracks last year.

My 26 has Wards Riverside tires from the 50s. They are cracked and hard but I drive it almost daily and year round, in all weather and on fairly long trips. I have replaced tubes as needed but the tires are still holding on fine. I did have a similarly aged firestone on another T that split open where the sidewall meets the tread but surprisingly it didn't pop the tube. I did change it as soon as I saw the split but I had been out all day and have no idea how long I had been driving with it like that.

I have to say I’m a bottom feeder when it comes to tires. Since I drive my T nearly every day in mostly stop and go city traffic I tend to go through tires quickly. Every so often I buy two new tires and mount them on the front. I buy used tires from the show car people that don’t want them due to some tread wear or cracking. The old Wards made in the US last the longest. Have never had failure when driving … only a flat on occasion after parking.

That's a good plan Mark. You drive many miles to wear them that much.
I bought new T-drivers for my '09. 3 for the front and 3 for the rear and I can rotate them. I now have wheels for the extra tires. I don't carry a spare and haven't had a flat yet. Much of the tread is gone and I have to think about new ones. These have done well for maybe 12 thousand miles in 20 years. Contrast that with the 60-year-old Firestones on my Coupe. I have 2 to 4 flats each year. Mostly because I patch old tubes. They usually go flat in the yard rather than on the street. I also have some '70s Wards 21s that are good enough to drive on. I haven't bought new tires for 15or 20 years so I can't report on any of them.
Rich

When we got my dads 1919 T in 2011 it had been in a barn since 1964.
I put air in the tires and drove it for about 8 years before getting new ones.
So about 54 years.

The tubes were fantastic — they only lost about 2 lbs of pressure over the winter.
The new tubes lose about 5 pounds a week.

Still have an old one as a spare and the others with the old tubes wrapped in shrink wrap.