MTFCA Forum

Hello,
I have a 1914 touring car that only has a couple of thousand miles on a complete engine rebuild. I have heard that model Ts back in the day needed engine rebuilds often. I know most of it was caused by poor maintenance, poor lubricants and harsh conditions.
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Here is my question....If I drive my car reasonably and use high quality 10-30w or 15-40w synthetic oil and change it (with screen and magnet) often, how long should my engine last? How often do you think I should be checking to see if a shim needs to be removed? What things can I do to to make my engine last longer?

Thank you.....

I've heard that 100k miles is quite doable with modern lubricants and regular maintenance.

Bryan, you have most of the variables in the equation pretty well down. What remains is how you drive and who taught you to drive. Honestly, I believe that less than 1/2 of todays owners know how to drive these cars...properly.

can you engage low gear (flat, paved surface) at engine idle speed?
can you do the same in reverse?
do you even know how to do it?

or is there lots of noise and mayhem involved? Go to a National Tour some time and listen to the reving and racing that goes on...and that's just to get off of the trailer.

proper use of foot controls, throttle and spark will aid longevity as much as maintenance and good lubricants

finally, speeds of 35MPH or less. Yes, you can go faster if you want...but you didn't ask how fast to go, you asked for how many miles or perhaps years can you expect your engine to last...and it will or can, last many many miles under specific circumstances. I would not doubt that Cameron is correct.

If all is well you can cruise at 45 mph. I believe your engine will last a lot longer if you cruise at 35 . Folks who feel a need for speed should get a Packard or a Stutz.

Scott....thank you for your keen observations on this subject.....
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You made some very valid points in your post. It is very possible to drive a Model T without knowing the proper way to drive a Model T. When I first started driving my car I am sure I was making all the mistakes you documented. In an effort to really understand how a Model T should be driven I read several new and old instructional books about how to drive a Model T and I decided to practice by driving the car to work about 4 days a week for almost 3 months. I learned to listen to the car and continuously adjust the carburetor, timing and throttle to keep it running smoothly. Oh, and I also asked Joe Bell for some expert advice too. As I improved I found that the gas milage kept improving and the spark plugs stayed clean. I drive the car at 35MPH most of the time, but sometimes traffic forces me to run 40MPH+ for a couple of miles. I hope to get a lot of miles out of this engine before any work needs to be done.
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A lot depends on what you call a rebuild. A complete rebuild includes boring cylinders turning the crank and re- pouring the bearings, New pistons and rings and complete valve grind and adjustment with new gaskets. New timing gears. An overhaul is only fix the worst things such as adjusting the bearings and grinding the valves, maybe installing new rings. So longevity after an overhaul depends on how good the remaining existing parts are. Also keeping the oil flowing helps a lot to keep things running correctly.
Norm

I've put over 10,000 miles on my car with no evident deterioration in the condition of the engine or transmission, steering, or brakes. I use synthetic oil with a low first number, such as 5W30 or 10/W30, a foam type air cleaner, a transmission cover screen and magnet, and a Texas T auxilliary oiler with restrictor. I limit speed to about 45 MPH. Stock ignition. I do not rev the engine needlessly. I shift from low to high as soon as is possible, which is usually at very low road speeds. I adjust timing and mixture as needed to obtain the best results for the conditions of the moment. I usually let the engine run a minute or two after starting, leaning the mixture as needed, then drive away, keeping engine speed and load moderate for a few miles. I do not start the engine unless I am going to drive the car for 10 miles or more. 1927 roadster with battery, starter, generator and stock magneto. Aluminum pistons. Cam is non-stock, which probably reduces very low speed torque somewhat. Berg radiator. Fan. Car does not overheat, even in 100 F plus weather. I keep the oil level halfway between the upper and lower cocks. Oil consumption and leakage are very low.

Brian, you said you got advice from Joe Bell..you got real good advice then. I remember him telling me "you can run 'em 30 mph all day long without any problems". And yeh, for the most part that's always been my "speed point", usually 28-30. Frankly 35 mph is in my not so humble opinion at the "top end" for what this car was designed. 45 is just beating the crap out of it. But then, speed preference is no doubt another can of worms just like oils, ignition, and of course water pumps. Here's the screen from my '13s trans with 12K miles on it, the oil is still almost clean at 1,000 miles, I normally change it at around 750 but this time I stretched it "just to see". It was barely brown. I also have my carb at the "sweet spot" and I never touch it now. My plugs are clean and she gets 24 mpg. almost consistently. Just my 2 cents pal.

Modern lubricants, aluminum pistons, and good balance will allow a T engine to run at higher speeds without ill effect, provided all clearances are within specification and lubrication and cooling systems are not compromised, and provided that the internal parts such as rods, cam, and crankshaft are not flawed or suffering from the effects of extremely high service hours or sustained abuse. Will a good engine last longer if limited to 35 MPH? Probably. But I believe that clean intake air, clean, high grade oil, proper handling, and good overall maintenence will get you farther than any set limit on road speed or engine RPM. A T engine in good condition and good balance, with aluminum pistons, can handle 1800 to 1900 RPM at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle for extended periods. My car will maintain 42-45 MPH under most conditions at 3/4 throttle or less. A stock, non-balanced engine with iron pistons might be another matter, though I think a good one with modern lubricants could handle 40 MPH at moderate throttle in a light open car. A very heavy car on one with higher wind drag will require more horsepower to maintain higher speeds. Few, if any passenger car engines are designed for 100% duty cycle. Common sense, applied freely, is an excellent accessory to promote successful motoring.

Another thing I would add to the suggestions I posted above is a properly aligned 4th main bearing at the rear of the transmission. This is accomplished by straightening the crankcase, which can be distorted by crooked frame, or a hard bump of the radius rod joint or other blows which can distort it. the later engines with the bolts from the hogs head to the block also help keep things straight.
Norm

All things being equal, alignment and balance are the keys

No one has mentioned an auxiliary outside oil return line. While not a necessity when all is operating according to plan, it's a good insurance policy should "something" interfere with the stock line. Rods 1&2 can go south quickly if a bit starved for oil.

A Texas T Oiler will allow flooding a magneto-equipped engine with oil.

In a 1916 Ford Times is a story of a 1909 doing 174,000 miles, I'll bet it was like grandpa's original axe. only 10 new handles and 2 new heads!

Kerry wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 04, 2022 3:36 pm

In a 1916 Ford Times is a story of a 1909 doing 174,000 miles, I'll bet it was like grandpa's original axe. only 10 new handles and 2 new heads!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

I started out with an original engine when I bought my T in 2002 . Drove that around for eight years, and in that time did 16,334km. The only modification I'd done during that time was to replace the valves with one piece types.
Then the crankshaft and camshaft broke end of 2009. I had the bearings repoured, an EE crankshaft fitted, a rebore, and aluminium pistons fitted. Valves guides weren't touched.
It's been 28,692km since the rebuild back in December 2009, and haven't touched a thing. The engine has never run better as it does now.
I drive it fast (75km/h on the freeway). Before every trip, I make sure the oil is up to the top tap, and of course the radiator is full. I change the oil once a year.
I recall something in Ford literature saying the whole car would be completely worn out by 10,000 miles (16,000km) and should be replaced. So, it would seem modern oil would have a lot to do with longevity.

How much do you think a reliable oil filter would extend the life of the engine, oil changes at the same interval?

Purely opinion: the large running gaps and the ability of Babbitt to digest large quantities of contamination would mean limited improvement over simply keeping the oil fresh every 500-750 miles.

How about keeping transmission band litter out of the oil tube?

A transmission screen will aid in keeping the oil pipe clear. Getting rid of two-piece valves would be a very good idea for an engine expected to do much running. Taking reasonable steps to keep dirt out of the engine will pay dividends. A proper, high flow oil filter would require an oil pump to be fully effective. An FL1A filter will pass hot 10W30 quite readily when it is clean. A Texas T oiler might be able to push hot 5W30 or 10W30 oil through an FL1A filter at a useful rate.

Properly adjusted coils and properly installed, well maintained timer are key contributing factors to engine longevity in by opinion. The operator only has course control of the ignition timing using the spark lever. Once set, coil to coil dwell time to fire spark and timer irregularities in coil activation determine the cylinder to cylinder ignition timing accuracy.

Coil to coil ignition timing variation and/or non-concentric timer can cause ignition to occur too early when the piston is still on the way up putting tremendous stress on the crankshaft, pistons, rods, bearings, gears, block at a minimum. The momentum of the flywheel diminishes the effect of an errant firing but magnifies the stresses.

I think Scott has nailed it. Engine/transmission and band life is directionally proportional to the treatment given by the driver! Oil is cheap. Regular changes are easy.

All good and valid points but I will add one more. it seems that the automotive engineers of that era did not understand the importance of filtering the air entering the carburetor. cars back then operated mostly on dirt roads and a lot of dust was sucked into the engine resulting in frequent engine overhauls. Although that is not much of a problem today, I still install air filters on my cars that did not come equipped with them.

So far the engine in my '27 has lasted 95 years and still runs great and uses no oil. As there is no odometer, I have no idea how many miles the car has travelled, but as far as I can tell, the engine has never been apart (except when I pulled the head to do a thorough cooling system inspection). With clean oil and the temperature and RPMs kept within reasonable bounds, the T engine should last almost indefinitely.

Untill the crank breaks.

I believe habitual lugging contributes to broken cranks, along with running with loose bearings and/or poor 4th main alignment. Another form of abuse would be running the engine for extended time in one of the torsional vibration ranges or with the timing over-advanced. Extremely high service hours is probably another factor.

I am running one engine that was rebuilt in the mid '60s. It has run 30,000 miles or more and still runs well without burning any oil. I broke a crankshaft in it. Probably from poor 4th bearing alignment. It still gives free starts and a chuff when turning the key on after several days. I run it under 35mph nowadays but used to drive it quite fast.
The rusty Coupe engine was refurbished in the '50s with original babbit and cast-iron pistons. I trued up the journals with emery cloth and put new rings in it. I lacks the power of a new engine but still runs quite well.