1912 Steering Quadrant Question

[Distagon2]

Shouldn't there be rivets in the brass steering quadrant? I am talking about the two long rivets that go through the quadrant and the steering column tube. Assuming they are needed!

[Scott_Conger]

looks like those are heavily ground back and polished over

[Rich P. Bingham]

Yes, there should. I think your photos are showing a rivet on the driver's side of the quadrant, albeit without a head. Perhaps someone filed the heads flush with the quadrant in a misguided notion of aesthetics ? What does the underside look like ?

[Steve Jelf]

Don't I see rivets in your pictures?

This is from Bruce's Model T Encyclopedia:

[Distagon2]

The dark spot in my picture is actually just some oxidation in some pits that needs to be cleaned out. A close look both top and bottom I see no evidence of rivets or previous holes. I suppose the rivets, if they are there, could have been ground down but I would think that I could see evidence of them. And, the previous owner was not the type to do something un-original, so I think he had not gotten around to drilling and riveting. I assume the steering quadrant etc. were all riveted in this manner, just as I had to do when I rebuilt my 26 steering column.

[Rich P. Bingham]

I presume the quadrant was replaced with a new repro unit ? Maybe the overhaul seemed tight enough that riveting seemed unnecessary to the previous owner. They're there for a purpose, to be sure ! The gear-case / column joint takes a lot of stress in use, especially in the early cars where the column isn't supported by the instrument panel as it is in the 1919 and later cars.

It's a little tricky to fit up with rivets because of the angles, but I'd sure recommend doing so.

[Wayne Sheldon]

I have had a couple repros of those (one on my 1913 project), and a couple original ones. That definitely looks like a repro. The funny thing is that one of the repros I had, had a nearly identical flaw in the casting where yours should have a rivet!
It looks to me like the previous owner never drilled and installed the rivets, and that definitely NEEDS to be done!

It really should be taken apart and inspected inside. Make sure there are no cracks or other issues, and look to see if holes are inside where they should be? Holes for those rivets, both originally and even worse in more recent decades, were not drilled consistently! IF there are holes inside? You should try to match into them and remove as little material as possible.
Even in the 1920s, T steering columns hole positions varied considerably. I have repaired several columns over the years by mixing and matching pieces from different columns. Sometimes holes from a couple different columns will line up? Often they do not. With the column tube, the gearcase, and the S/T quadrant, there are three pieces to line up. When mixing and matching? Sometimes a few pieces need to be tried (one I put together years ago I had three (1920s!) quadrants to choose from, only one came close to lining up). The gearcase probably has holes in it! You usually should try to line up to follow through those holes for least material removal.

[Norman Kling]

I wonder if sometime in the past, someone couldn't find brass rivets so they cut pieces of brass rod and peened the ends and polished over? Hard to tell from looking at pictures.
Norm

[Distagon2]

Indeed, I will check this out thoroughly and you can be sure there will be rivets! The previous owner was in the process of restoring the car so I am thinking it was just one of those things he had not yet completed. He was not the type to overlook any detail, that's for sure, but unfortunately, he is no longer with us.

[Loftfield]

Oh yes, both my 1912 Model T's have rivets, certainly needed.

[Original Smith]

When I have the quadrant off a steering column, I'm careful to note the original size of the two rivets, and the exact size and style of the heads, so when the new rivets are installed they will look exactly like they are supposed to. I've seen too many where this hasn't been done, and it just doesn't look right. And, by the way this is not an easy job.

[Distagon2]

I know it is not an easy job, having done it for my 1926 steering column. I originally asked the question thinking maybe there was a time they did NOT rivet the quadrant etc. together. However, I kind of knew better. My heart sank a little when I noticed I now have some meticulous surgery to do on that steering column. Oh well, all part of the joy.....

[NealW]

You've already gotten your answers from others, but here is a picture of our late 1911/early model year 1912 steering column showing the rivets.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

I have had a couple repros of those (one on my 1913 project), and a couple original ones. That definitely looks like a repro. The funny thing is that one of the repros I had, had a nearly identical flaw in the casting where yours should have a rivet!
It looks to me like the previous owner never drilled and installed the rivets, and that definitely NEEDS to be done!

Makes me think that repros were made using an original quadrant as a pattern. The original would have had the rivet holes filled in for use as a pattern, but perhaps not perfectly, leaving a small witness mark in the repro castings.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Jerry, I had a similar thought a few years ago when I was looking at the parts I had. I haven't seen enough original ones in many years, to see how they mostly were. The couple original ones I have are much lighter in weight, and bulk than are the repros. The brass "bow" with the notches to hold the spark and throttle levers where placed on the original ones I have are only about half as thick or strong as the two repros I have? I wonder if the makers of the repros just wanted to make them stronger? One of the original ones I have is broken, but I think I can repair it. In the past I have welded brass by creating a plaster form to support the part being repaired that allows me to heat and fill missing brass as needed. That has worked rather well on several parts.
Perhaps someone built up an original piece to make it heavier and stronger to create the form for the repros, but left the original hole in place? Seems strange to me, but maybe?

Also, the first photo at the top of the thread has me wondering about the "two-piece" gearcase? It looks like the lower piece may be correct original? However the gearcase riveted to that lower piece doesn't appear to have quite the shape of the couple original gearcases I have. It looks more like a later "one-piece" gearcase cut and altered to replace a missing or broken piece. I notice this because I considered doing this myself on one of my cars when faced with a broken gear. Then I found a better replacement.

[Allan]

Wayne has spotted an interesting detail. Contrast the flat bottom on the gearcase in the initial post, with the tapered base on the later posting. He may well be on the mark with his observation that perhaps a later gearcase has been grafted on. Notice the absence of any solder between the two components. We may be looking at a heavily modified component.

Regardless of the components' history, there are details to be shared. I believe when the columns were assembled initially, the rivets were installed last, and each column is an individual assembly as a result. Mixing and matching components from various columns will never produce rivet holes which line up with the various components. The only way to correct this is to drill a new set of rivet holes.

With no holes in this quadrant, there is a good start. The 4 holes in the steel column then need to be welded up and finished. The holes which may, [or may not] be in the base of the case, can be drilled and threaded to take brass all thread to fill them. Then all will be back as original, ready for two new rivet holes to be drilled.

Forget trying to drill an accurate set of rivet holes in mis-aligned parts. The drill will wander as it encounters different holes, elongating any new hole. If an oversize hole is drilled in an attempt to correct this, it is likely to be way larger than the diameter of the rivets used initially.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

[Rich P. Bingham]

Well, this discussion sure opened up another rabbit hole for my wandering mind to go down ! Allan noted what may be a later gear case grafted onto an earlier column section. What I think I see are three different applications: In Gregory's first photo, it appears the column piece fits into a rebate in the gear case ; the next photo from Bruce's book shows the flange of the column piece proud of the bottom of the gear case ; the photo of Neal's '12 shows a very different assembly.

Thoughts ?

[Original Smith]

I put a NOS quadrant on my 1925. I didn't wish to change the location of the existing holes in the column tube. It was a difficult job, but I marked the holes from the tube to the quadrant from the inside, and drilled a very small hole from the inside of the quadrant, and kept enlarging it with a file and what other means I could find to get the hole in the exact location. I also had to have special rivets made to duplicate the style head of the originals.
With the early style repro quadrant, they don't appear to be flat from front to back as the originals. The ones I've seen appear to me to be slightly convex.