MTFCA Forum

**I want to first be clear that I’m only going to do this once.**

Wife and I bought a new house and now I’m having to move my T in the middle of January in a place north of Minnesota, so suffice to say it’s cold. My plan is to just drive the T over since it’s only about a two mile trip and the roads here are pretty well maintained considering the climate.

Right now my T sits in an unheated garage with SAE30 oil in the engine. It takes both hands to turn the crank even with a back wheel off the ground and as such, there’s no way it’s starting as it sits right now. What do you guys think I should do to get it going? I was thinking of draining the oil and replenishing it with 10W30 or maybe 5W30 that I’ll pre-heat in the house by wrapping the bottle in an electric blanket. Think that would be enough? How do the snowmobile guys do it?

Once my T is at the new place it’s going into a heated garage where this will never be a problem again.

What you are suggesting isn't a bad start. If you have some kind of portable space heater aim it at the T. That also might help. If you have a small electric heater, place it under the engine and perhaps cover with a blanket or moving pad. Something to help retain heat. Hope you can get her going.

I can't help you, cold starting is a mystery to me. But maybe I can add some more clues.

I have three running T's, all with electric start:

NH with a standard head and buzz coils needs starting fluid at 20* F, then needs to warm up 5 minutes. I might have to restart several times before she is warmed up.

NH with Z head and buzz coils starts no problem at 20* F, needs little warm up.

Stromberg 97, Prus head, distributor, doesn't need a choke and fires on the first turn, ready to go down the road.

I use Shell Rotella 30 W oil in them all year round.

Would a Model T engine with a high compression head start better in cold weather?

I agree, warming it up is the best option.
Try to warm the sump area up after draining the oil, before you pour in the warm oil.
You can also drain and heat up the coolant.

Worst case, drag it and let the clutch out.
Just be sure to NOT hook on to the the axle.

Tom, yes...higher compression will make the charge ignite at lower temperatures.

Just a thought, when you re-fill with warm oil, pour it in through the trans inspection cover - that may help free up dragging clutch plates. Was it parked with the control lever in "neutral" or released into direct drive ? I wouldn't be above using a little ether when she's lumbered up enough to crank. Good luck ! Let us know how you make out !

Drain the oil and use the 10-30. There should be no need to pre-heat it. I have started mine by crank with 30W at below 30 deg's, yes it was hard to crank but it started. Don't over choke and flood the engine. Let it get warmed up before driving. If you have a Moto-Meter, watch the temp, if it's running too cold, cover the bottom half of the radiator with cardboard to bring temp up. If you are running just water, don't for get to drain it, but better yet, used anti-freeze to the concentration for your weather. It will protect the metal from rusting and keep from freezing the block or radiator. Use the green stuff for older engines.

Lots of good advice here,.....and I'm wondering:

Tim mentioned hard to crank, even with "one wheel off the ground".

The benefit of jacking one rear wheel off the ground is obvious, and this might sound silly, but I can't help wondering:

One rear wheel off the ground is an old, "tried & true" aid in cold weather starting of a Model T, however, it seems to me that in hand cranking, one would still have to overcome the resistance of the cold and accordingly, very stiff lubrication resistance of the spider grears in the differential. Would not jacking up BOTH rear wheel off the ground eliminate the added resistance of the stiff differential action of the rear end?

Just a thought,.....harold

I would agree with pouring some oil into the transmission cover, however remember that the rods dip up the oil from the front so you need to pour some of the oil into the oil filler. Warm up the coolant, but not too much as to cause crack from the shock of expansion. Some heating of the coolant would help loosen up the oil already in the cylinders and rings. I also agree on jacking both rear wheels. After you get it started, warm it up and use all the pedals a few times to get the transmission limbered up. It should start up and run. A few drops of fuel in each cylinder could help because you won't need to spin it as much to draw the fuel in, but not too much or you will flood it.
Let us know how things work out.
Norm

Harold, good thought. Traditionally, most T owners were equipped to jack up one rear wheel easily, putting it on axle stands means more items needed, and more time involved. One wheel up works OK.

From my early life experiences in central Wisconsin: All ideas offered have merit. I would get an infrared heat lamp (I think these are around 200-250 Watts) and direct that 'light' against the oil sump and pan dips for several hours but check it frequently. Warming coolant will help too but it is a chore to do. I do not believe changing oil will help with starting, the cold 30W is in clutch and journals and won't be replaced until you get it running. Pull start would be my choice if it's not practical to warm engine and oil.

I would NEVER use starting fluid in my T, but that's just me. Pls let us know how this goes, good luck! jb

Place a trouble light with a 100w light bulb (a true 100w bulb, not a led or cork screw bulb) on each side of the engine and a blanket over the hood and radiator for 24 hours.

As I read down this thread, Infra-red spot or flood light kept coming to mind. Jim B. from NY beat me to it...that light bulb at the end of a long extension cord...and find a way to block the cold wind. Give it a few hours (overnight), and try before you go thru the trouble of draining and heating and undoing floorboard to pour the oil back into the trans.

Good Luck!

I agree with Jeff Humble. A couple of 100 W (true 100 W incandescent bulbs) overnight should warm it enough for a fairly easy start.

Also, I've found that there's no substitute for a few well organized explicatives.

If you jackup one wheel, place the E-Brake in full forward , high gear position. This give a direct drive in the trans which eliminates the clutch/transmission drag. Nobody mentioned this, above. Be sure to block the other wheels as you will be in high gear when she starts.....paul

From my experience cranking T's and K's below freezing, do jack both wheels off the ground. As mentioned above, one wheel off the ground was the "simple fix" because everyone had a jack. However, both wheels off allows the wheel with least resistance to turn.

Also, don't know if it was addressed, but don't put the car in high, just neutral. It's surprising what a difference this makes starting a cold motor with a planetary trans.
Good luck,
Rob

I used to keep a car in a trailer in weather that was often in the teens. The trailer sat out in a field without access to electricity. On New Years Day we toured with a group regardless of the weather. To start the car I jacked up a rear wheel, put the hand lever forward and removed the plugs to squirt a bit of gas into each cylinder. With the plugs back in, throttle open 1/4 way and the switch on battery one pull up on the crank was usually enough to get the car to start right up. On the rare occaision when that did not work the first time, I would repeat the spark plug removal and priming process. Once, when my back was in bad shape, instead of using the crank I would spin the rear wheel that was jacked up to start. Worked fine, just make sure you can back away once it starts. All I have ever used is straight 30wt oil. Now that I live in Florida I still jack up a wheel for cold starts but just pull the crank through twice with full choke before I turn the switch on. By doing that 90% of the time the car starts on compression so I don't even need to use the crank again.

What about using electrical heat tape wound around the inlet pipe going from the bottom of the radiator to the block. Heat should thermosiphon through the entire cooling system and warm up the engine,oil and water. cover engine and block radiator to retain heat. should work if You have enough heat from the heat strips. assuming Your car does not use a water pump, might still work depending on the water pump design. If Your car is hand crank I would be carefull about the use of starter fluid that might cause a kickback. the old timers jacked up a wheel and poured a pot full of boiling water in the radiator. seems like this would still work, But My wife tells me I have been wrong before ?
Or better yet if You or a friend have AAA towing coverage just have them tow it on a flat bed wrecker and be done with it. AAA coverage is not connected with any vehicle and You don't have to own it. "My two cents worth maybe less" Good Luck

pdgriesse wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:31 pm

If you jackup one wheel, place the E-Brake in full forward , high gear position. This give a direct drive in the trans which eliminates the clutch/transmission drag. Nobody mentioned this, above. Be sure to block the other wheels as you will be in high gear when she starts.....paul

Putting the car in high gear would not help any. At this point any movement of the clutch disc is desirable.

Once I asked the same question at Bill Eads the "TNUT".
He told me:
"You need to make believe your car it is summer out there. You drain the oil and the water. Heat it up near to boiling and put it back in the car."

Each time as I take the car out in the winter I do so and had never problems to start it up even when it was freezing -10°C.

Good luck
Andre
Belgium

Dumping the W-30 worked for me one winter. Replaced with 5 W 30 & never went back. Don't think warming the oil would work as well as the old time solution of warming the coolant and puoring it in. A bit richer on the carb adjustment might also help. (suggested by others). Jack the wheel too definitely. A professional tow of 2 or 3 miles wouldn't $ much. Maybe it pays to find out before going thru the work.

Triple A membership has a number of free tows each year some up to 200 miles depending on the class of membership. all have at least a few short tows included. The towing is for the benefit of the person holding the membership and it is good for any car owned by any body that the member chooses. That can be for Your self or a friend, neighbor or a poor sole on a tour that needs a tow. You just haft to have the AAA member call for service and be there ? when the tow truck arrives. The free tows are for the current membership year and go away if not used, Use um or loose um!

JWalters

you are way overdue here to hawk Turbo 400 discs. Welcome to the party.

You are wrong, by the way regarding not wanting to put the car into high gear to start, as the rear wheel will act as an additional flywheel and there is no attempt to break low discs apart at this point in the process. At low temps, the originally designed driveline from crank to differential is a highly viscous-coupled assembly and an attempt to try to break away low discs is foolish if the car is thus bound up.

With more experience, I'm sure you'll understand and perhaps even pass this bit of wisdom on to some poor soul without the means or desire to put in modern clutch pack.

A lot of good advice here, but remember something.........you are trying to get an engine started that is perhaps 400 lbs. of ice cold metal. With that kind of situation, I'd be more tempted to place an electric utility heater under the car and cover it with a tarp overnight. Make sure there's no gasoline leaks of course! It will take at least several hours to warm up.

Although I know it's been done, I don't like the idea of pouring boiling water into an icy cylinder block. Cast iron doesn't like that.

Get that mass of metal and cold oil warm up to a reasonable temperature, THEN start it. Lizzie will thank you for it.

Why don't you just go out and buy a lower radiator hose heater? Ford still installs these on modern cars.

No worries about gas leakage and it keeps the engine warm enough to start it. Can be used with a blanket
as well.

I got my starterless T in 1963 and over the past 50+ years I have had numerous occasions to hand crank it in cold weather. Today's oils make that much easier. Generally, all I did was make sure I had a good battery, put in warm water from the house and jack up one rear wheel, and it always started. The warm water warms the combustion chamber and makes the fuel ignite more easily (more of a problem in the old days) and the water warms the oil enough (by conduction through the cast iron) to make it easier to crank. It is critical that the hand brake is all the way forward, and if you had 600W grease in the diff it might be good to jack up both wheels. Once started, you will find that you need to pull the brake lever back slowly to stop the rear wheel as there will be plenty of drag, even when it is not bitterly cold out. Then lower the car. If you pull the lever back too fast the engine will die because of the drag. If I were just going to start it once to move it, this is all I would do. However, one cold December, I parked the T in front of my office with Christmas lights on it and started it late each night to put it away. I used a lower radiator hose heater and it worked fine; I'd guess a magnetic oil pan heater would help as well - maybe on the transmission. Another solution comes from my older buddy who drove his 1927 T to high school in 1947 and his T and an old Chevy were the only two cars that would start at -30F. All he had was a Warford and he would put it in neutral to eliminate the clutch drag. However, starting with that cold oil could not have been good! I have a Warford in my other Model T and always start it in neutral as it is easier on the starter. It also helps to put the brake lever forward when you park it to force the oil out of the discs. Back when we used headbolt heaters on the old Mopars it always amazed me that even though the headbolt heater did not draw a lot of current and only warmed the water jacket, it was enough to keep the oil warm enough so that the engines would spin over and start well.

Scott_conger wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:18 pm

JWalters

You are wrong, by the way regarding not wanting to put the car into high gear to start, as the rear wheel will act as an additional flywheel and there is no attempt to break low discs apart at this point in the process. At low temps, the originally designed driveline from crank to differential is a highly viscous-coupled assembly and an attempt to try to break away low discs is foolish if the car is thus bound up.

Scott, I don't think it would really make that much difference. I would much rather have the car in neutral than high gear on jacks in case it fell to the ground.

Jason

the difference is, you don't THINK it will make a difference, and I KNOW it will make a difference.

That is what "Experience" is. You'll have some someday, too, just keep at it.

Scott,

That's funny, I have stock plates in both of my cars and crank them by hand all the time in below freezing temperatures with no problem. Instead of attacking people just for having a different opinion maybe you could do something more productive.

Stephen

Stephen_heatherly wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 13, 2019 11:04 pm

Instead of attacking people just for having a different opinion maybe you could do something more productive.
Stephen

Stephen, I didn't attack anyone. Maybe you should take your own advise.

Scott_conger wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:51 pm

Jason

the difference is, you don't THINK it will make a difference, and I KNOW it will make a difference.

That is what "Experience" is. You'll have some someday, too, just keep at it.

When the car falls to the ground running in high gear and causes damage or hurts somebody you will have some experience alright.

I agree with Mr. Walters. Putting the lever fully forward has no advantage over putting it in neutral and is dangerous. The point of jacking the wheels up is to eliminate drag from the transmission which can be accomplished by simply putting the lever in neutral. If the car falls off the jack with the transmission in high you better hope the engine stalls unless very bad things are going to happen.

Stephen

regarding that E-brake lever position, Scott Conger is right on---engage high gear by keeping it full forward---That totally disengages the trans, clutches and triple gears and provides a "flywheel" effect with the jacked wheel. Not to keep kicking a dead horse, this is a FACT, not an opinion! Starting in neutral works, too but DOES engage the trans which will tend to drag the cranking.....Suit yourself but listen to experience!! Thanks, Paul

Well this might be really disappointing but all I did was wait for a milder day. There was no pre-heat, oil change, towing or anything. All I did was another half turn richer on the carb which I took back off again as it warmed, as one often does. It was a nicer day so I just gave it a shot before trying anything else. The T is in my new garage safe and sound!

Lesson learned: when parked in neutral, SAE30 is basically glue at -19*C (-2*F) but limber enough to start by crank with all wheels on the ground at -2*C (28*F). This is with Ford’s original all steel clutch pack too. I say that as a data point, not to rub it in anyone’s face.

That's great to hear ! There's a big difference between zero F and near a thaw. I can sure feel it, your Lizzie obviously could, too !

I've started our cars both in neutral and in high gear, with both wheels off the ground. Two problems I've encountered when in high gear. First, if there is a backfire or even when the car sputters, the entire drivetrain must take whatever shock occurs. You see, and feel the stress to the entire driveline as the wheels go, sputter, stop, reverse (slight kickback) and the entire drivetrain is at risk. Secondly, i'm forced to turn the entire drivetrain by crank when in gear. This may not seem like much, but with a Model K, this is nearly impossible when dealing with cold engine oil, cold transmission grease, and cold differential grease. By using neutral, the drivetrain will take the path of least resistance, and the transmission may slip some and give me a better chance of getting enough cranking speed for the engine to have a chance to turn over.

Below is a video starting our K when the engine is 34 degrees. If you watch it, notice the front springs/suspension as I try to crank it cold. Then, watch the rear wheel when the K is jacked up to start. Although the car is in neutral, the rear wheel turns immediatialy as i crank, helping offset "stiff" oil and grease:

https://youtu.be/s8bzvv6JV-s

Did Julie as you to run into town for milk and bread?

Hey, she can start it too....(maybe not when it's cold)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bw0qgxw3dprl9 ... M.mov?dl=0

I put mine in neutral parking brake off, but the car can have the have the creeps! THAT IS WHY YOU CHOCK THE WHEELS. Even in neutral and if it shakes off the jack, she still might pin you to the wall.