MTFCA Forum

In tinkering with my 22, I see a sort of shelf on either side of the body under the seat that looks like it supported a set of boards over the gas tank similar to the one shown below. I have been looking through my books and can’t tell if the 22 should have one. If it should, it would be easy to make. I have seen posts saying that they were made from 5/16 thick boards.

One thing my car does not have is a board along the metal panel in front of the seat. Not sure if it should be or ever was there.

I have a 1919 Roadster that I restored several years go using a Ford Wood body wood kit.
I don’t remember it using the front seat wood directly under the front seat. Their website has the body wood drawings but they don’t show the front seat area covered with wood. The wood kits are the same from 17-22.

My car doesn’t have any wood at all covering the gas tank. The front seat frame supports the seat spring. Thinking back the area may not been covered at all from the factory since the front seat frame supports the seat springs. Over time owners may have covered the area themselves. Could it be your car was done the same way years before you became the owner? The seat frame on my car has the holes for the sheet metal cover cover hinges. I was going to buy the sheet metal gas tank area cover but never did. Its been that way over the years so I never put any thing over it.

Maybe the body makers who Ford used during that time period didn’t all do it the same way??

Interesting. My '21 Runabout does not have the wooden panel. I have a sheet metal "lid".

What is shown in the first photo is a factory gas tank hinged cover/lid/door for a touring or roadster. Note that it has two hinges near the seat back.

Depending on the year of the car and/or manufacturer of the body, they were wood or stamped sheet metal. The wood covers typically have two hinges while the stamped steel covers have three hinges. I'm not an expert, so you'd have to actually talk to someone that has actually researched it to see if they were ever dropped from production.

Some tourings also had a hinged sheet metal or wooden cover over the rear seat compartment (where you stored the side curtains and tools, etc.). I believe that the rear seat compartment cover was dropped sometime during the 1917 model year. Again, you would have to consult with an "expert" who has studied the subject.

Both my 1917 roadster and my dad's 1917 touring have stamped sheet metal hinged covers over the gas tank. These cars have known histories since new.

I like the idea of something between the bottom of the seat and the road to I might just make a wood one. I see that some years/models had little built in compartments for tools under there. That could be handy.

I like the idea of something between the bottom of the seat and the road so I might just make a wood one. I see that some years/models had little built in compartments for tools under there. That could be handy.

I don't have anything between the gas tank and the seat on my 22, however, over the years, the seat springs can sag. It would be good to put either a metal panel there or a thin wood cover just to keep the seat from sagging. If you use wood, be careful when filling the tank not to spill on the wood. it will soak into the wood and could at least smell like gas, or at worse, possibly a spark from the exhaust could give you a hot seat
Norm

If you make one, be sure to use period correct packing crates.

I don't think anybody has ever seriously researched this. And if Jerry V O doesn't really know, I don't know who would?
From the beginning, Ford used bodies supplied by outside body building companies. It wasn't until the end of the brass era that Ford began building bodies "in-house", and not until the 1920s that they began being more standardized. While a given style in a given year may look mostly alike from a few feet away outside? The inner structure varied a lot! Replacement wood kits tried to compensate for this in the recent half century plus, but often require some creative modifications if trying to mix remaining original wood with new replacements pieces.
When re-wooding my 1915 runabout, I had a good (?) set of plans that covered about half the woodwork for it. Very little of the original wood was anywhere near usable, although I did manage to use a couple pieces in the cowl area. Comparing the plans to the original wood showed them to be more than a little different! I wound up doing something between the original which I wanted to match, and what the plans showed where there wasn't enough original wood to copy. The plans I had also did not show hardly anything of the seat structure, which I am fairly sure was because the seat structure varied so greatly between body suppliers! Some front seat structures are almost entirely wood! Others are almost entirely steel! And a lot of them vary greatly in a mix of wood and steel. Even within a given body supplier, the seat structure can vary a lot from one production run to the next. Beaudette I know built some early mostly steel front seats, and a lot of all wood front seats.
As for the covers over the gasoline tanks? Most open body model Ts did have a cover originally. But not all of them did! And the covers were either steel or wood across most of the 1910s and early to mid 1920s years. I would imagine that which (steel or wood?) was more common varied through those years, but I certainly don't know myself which were mostly used when. I suspect that the steel covers were more common during the 1920s? But cannot say I even know that for sure.

This is a subject that has been discussed on this forum many times in the past. A lot of those discussions got quite long. And I never saw one that ever reached a solid conclusion. Many discussions ended up disagreeing with other discussions. A lot of people are thoroughly convinced that there is only ONE right way, and THEY KNOW what it is! And if someone doesn't agree with them? That that person IS WRONG! I am totally convinced only that they varied a lot! Beyond that? I don't know.

Again this goes to show that in this era if your trying to get your T as correct as you can get you’ll only get so far. With up to 5 body makers and T’s being shipped by rail dissembled in crates there is no telling how they were put together at the dealerships. And what the new owners wanted added to them is another story. To me this case is closed unanswered again.

Morgan,
Does the car have the round gas tank or oval?
; ^ )
Keith

My car has an oval tank. From what little I know, I would not at all be surprised that there are great variations between the bodies. Since there seems to be great variation in so many other things. I am interested in getting the car to be period correct, but I recognize that the car has a history and things were commonly done in period to fix issues or make repairs. My goal is to have a good driving car that looks pretty nice. My seat springs sag a bit which along with what looks like a shelf for a lid got me thinking. I think I will make a lid when I get the chance. Not sure if I can find the crate material, but I can make do.

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:59 am

I don't think anybody has ever seriously researched this. And if Jerry V O doesn't really know, I don't know who would?

You're teasing here, right? Thoughts I share on this forum, I do so with some degree of confidence that I'm correct, otherwise I don't comment at all. I hope that confidence does not come across as "know-it-all", because I sure as hell don't. I also hope that when I'm in error, someone will correct me.

Here’s another earlier post about what goes under the gas tank. No clear answer here either. https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/1 ... 17340.html

Take your pick I guess.

Morgan,
Is the frame around the seat made of wood or steel? If wood, the cover would be made from wood.
If it is steel, you would be able to see a couple of hinge holes in the frame where the hinges were riveted on, if it at one time had a cover.
Take a look at the photos in the post above and post a couple of photos of what you currently have.

: ^ )

Keith

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:12 pm

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:59 am

I don't think anybody has ever seriously researched this. And if Jerry V O doesn't really know, I don't know who would?

You're teasing here, right? Thoughts I share on this forum, I do so with some degree of confidence that I'm correct, otherwise I don't comment at all. I hope that confidence does not come across as "know-it-all", because I sure as hell don't. I also hope that when I'm in error, someone will correct me.

Jerry, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your postings! I consider you to be one of the most knowledgeable and level headed of the experts on this forum. My comment was a backhanded way of saying "I really don't think ANYBODY has the full answer". If anybody did know, I think you would be near the top of the list.
Me? I can at times run off half cocked. You? I consider to be extremely knowledgeable, but in no way would I consider you to be a "know-it-all"!

There a lot of things that we may never know about our model TS, especially in the timelines of a lot of the changes. I have not had an opportunity to do serious research at the archives (I wish I could spend days there!), but I read a lot written by people that have been there and the things they have found, or not found. A lot of the factual information did not make it into the "records of changes" cards. A lot of things were changed back and forth multiple times which really confuses the issues.
I need to review something posted on another forum a few days ago. Nothing really important, but it might pin down a little closer a minor oddity on a few 1917 windshields. Thousands of details, one detail at a time.

I don’t see any hinge holes but I also think there is a chance that the wood is not original. Here is a picture.

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 13, 2022 6:57 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 13, 2022 2:12 pm

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:59 am

I don't think anybody has ever seriously researched this. And if Jerry V O doesn't really know, I don't know who would?

You're teasing here, right? Thoughts I share on this forum, I do so with some degree of confidence that I'm correct, otherwise I don't comment at all. I hope that confidence does not come across as "know-it-all", because I sure as hell don't. I also hope that when I'm in error, someone will correct me.

Jerry, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and your postings! I consider you to be one of the most knowledgeable and level headed of the experts on this forum. My comment was a backhanded way of saying "I really don't think ANYBODY has the full answer". If anybody did know, I think you would be near the top of the list.
Me? I can at times run off half cocked. You? I consider to be extremely knowledgeable, but in no way would I consider you to be a "know-it-all"!

There a lot of things that we may never know about our model TS, especially in the timelines of a lot of the changes. I have not had an opportunity to do serious research at the archives (I wish I could spend days there!), but I read a lot written by people that have been there and the things they have found, or not found. A lot of the factual information did not make it into the "records of changes" cards. A lot of things were changed back and forth multiple times which really confuses the issues.
I need to review something posted on another forum a few days ago. Nothing really important, but it might pin down a little closer a minor oddity on a few 1917 windshields. Thousands of details, one detail at a time.

Wayne,

Thank you so much for your kind words! Now I have to be extra careful to live up to them

I agree, there are some things we'll never pin down. Every time we think we've got it straight, something pops up to make us question it all over again. We go through the same thing on the antique phonograph forum. Kind of what makes it fun!

My '17 Touring has metal lids under both the front and rear seats. The stamped lids rest upon a wooden frame. I have no reason to believe they're not original. The rear seat has a storage area under the seat but the compartment below the front seat only contains the gas tank and it is open at the bottom.

I agree, Jerry V knows Model T's, having been brought into the hobby at a very young age.

For Morgan -- good news the Model T Ford Club International Judging Guidelines 7th edition does not say anything about a 1922 or for that matter they are not mentioned one way or the other for the 1915-1922 cars. OK I did a spot check and did not look at each year. And I did not check to see if that is one of several items that has been updated since the Guidelines were published. That information is available on the website, but I don't have time to look that up.

So you won't loose any points if you enter the car in judging for that item either way.

And yes, something under the springs could help limit how much they sag.

Side note, I'm 60 % sure that someone mentioned they had poor springs and after replacing them with new seat springs (bottom cushion) the car road a lot nicer for them.

Another side note for Morgan -- have you looked on the right front floor board rise to see if there is a tag with a number or if the number has been stamped into the wood? You may or may not be able to date your body if one is present. Please see the Old Forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html

++++++++++++++

For all -- several of us have been looking for information on this one for several years. And yes the research often raises additional questions.

++++++++++++++
For Erick -- from memory, you have a very original 1917 roadster (with a 1916 year body that appears to have been upholstered and installed on your 1917 that was likely assembled at the Minneapolis Ford plant near you in 1917 with the 1917 style upholstery.) Your car and others like it can add a lot to our data about the Fords. Note I've only seen a few Model Ts that had the metal fuel tank cover and a few with the wooden fuel tank cover. But in that Very Very small sample size that I have seen, both the metal and the wooden wooden fuel tank covers both had only two hinges and not three. Could I have you confirm (possibly one more time) how many hinges your 1917 roadster and your Dad's 1917 touring have on their metal fuel tank cover?

And finally if you would clarify the type of the seat frames your 1917 roadster and your Dad's 1917 touring have. Are they metal or wood?

I know for the touring bodies, both the metal and the wood seat frames were used at different times by different body makers. And at times both the metal and wood were used during the same time period. Ref Ford Methods & Ford Shops pg 237 shows metal framed front seat on 1915 touring (similar to my cut off body with the metal channels at the back of the seat rest area) and page 238 shows a wood front seat frame similar to the 1915-16 (forgot the date) front seat cut off body that I have. Those are shown below:
Above 99% sure that is a metal front seat frame on the touring pg 238 Ford Shops
Above 99% sure that is a wooden seat frame on a touring pg 238 Ford Shops.

Ford Methods and Ford Shops is free and available on-line from Google at:
https://books.google.com/books?id=TcAqZ ... ford+metho ds+and+ford+shops&hl=en&ei=HgBxTZB9iPqwA-OR3MML&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&re snum=1&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Note, I'm still working on figuring out if some or most of the roadsters had more wood in the "metal seat frames" than the tourings did. For the tourings with the metal seat frames that I have seen, the wood was for the upholstery to be tacked to but it was not structural i.e. if it was removed to replace rotten wood -- you could still sit the bottom seat spring on the metal seat frame and it would still hold you up. From memory - not as reliable as good notes or photos -- I believe I have seen pictures of several 1917 and later roadster front seats that had a lot more wood than the same year touring seat.

My 1918 Beaudett touring that has not been restored and appears mostly used/original has 2 hinges on the fuel tank cover. Both the front and rear seats are metal seat frames and the fuel tank cover is also metal.

Still so much more to discover (rediscover -- I'm sure the actual assembly line workers new what was being used back in the day).

It is late for me so I will close for now. Hopefully we will have some additional data points to add to our treasure hunt.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off (unknown body maker -- and that is what started me looking for information on the bodies)

Good information Hap and as usual it always helps to clarify things! I did have a set of plans years ago I purchased from Mel Miller for the 17-22 Roadsters andI dont remember any mention of under seat wood in the side notes other than the wood seat frame. As most of us know Leon Parker had plans for these cars too.

Maybe someone who has Leon’s plans could check his wood plan notes to see if he mentions anything about seat wood. Those two people did extensive work preparing plans for the wood so maybe they mentioned something about it on their plans.

We’ll see.

Hap,

Excellent, well researched information as always. How do you find the time? Thanks!