MTFCA Forum

This has been posted before;

I found this photo of the other side. Still think it's intriguing that a '17-'22 would be running acetylene headlamps.

Interesting car! Wish we had better pictures of it from before the wreck.
Front spring/engine mount is the earlier type, so likely earlier than 1921. The horn button is on the side of the steering column, not the top. So 1918 or later. I cannot tell for certain that it is not the 1918/1919 combination switch, although it appears to have the smaller button rather than the larger knob for the combination switch. However it would be possible the larger knob could have been broken off in the accident, and I cannot see for certain whether there is a horn button there or not? Since the car is a non-electric model, early 1919s would have still used the combination switch. Assuming it is the later horn button? That would make the car an abut mid/late 1919 or likely 1920.
Ford factory of course did not sell cars with gas headlamps that late. However, as discussed in a recent thread, some people weren't ready yet to trust the new-fangled electric lamps! Some Ford dealers would for a few dollars swap out the electric lamps and replace them with available gas headlamps.
I have seen a few, and have copies of a couple, 1915/'16 open model Ts with gas headlamps. And I have seen a couple 1917 model Ts with gas headlamps, but do not currently have a copy of them.
Regardless, This car may be the latest Model T I have seen era photos of with gas headlamps! Fascinating tidbit of history.
It all just ties so much into the era of the changing times. How so many people reacted to changes. So many people embraced electric lights on automobiles! While others feared them, and hung onto what to them was familiar, in spite of the greater fire dangers. We today know that electric lamps are much safer and more reliable.

So many people embraced electric lights on automobiles! While others feared them, and hung onto what to them was familiar...

I'm reminded of James Thurber's aunt, who had to have something plugged into every outlet so the electricity wouldn't leak out into the room.

Being in to early electrical hardware and history, I have read SO MANY
accounts of people thinking electricity would flow like water, requiring
all open circuits to be "plugged" to hold the juice in ! It was quite common.

In WorldWar1 a lot of ambulance drivers on the front prefered acetylene over electric lights or at least had an extra gas searchlight added, both for extra safety and backup lighting if bulbs blew out.

Is that a PIG in the first pic, lower left corner? Maybe it was in the back seat of the car going to the market?

It appears to be a pig. I doubt the pig could have inflicted that much damage. It looks to me like the car was hit broadside by another car at low speed, or perhaps a train moving very slowly.

Tim, it sure looks like a pig, but I think it's a dog. Too small for a market hog in that era, and the bystanders are ignoring him - maybe they'd be paying some attention to escaped livestock ? I think it's a rock and shadow that makes it look like a piggy snout ?

Wayne, I always appreciate the "handle" you have on small details that earmark different years. My first T was a 1920 by engine number, but had what "the book" said were earlier features like forged running board irons and the early front spring clip. The headlights had socket connections low and off center of the buckets, and two bulb reflectors. The horn button was large and knurled of the type that operated the lights as well.

TWrenn wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:36 am

Is that a PIG in the first pic, lower left corner? Maybe it was in the back seat of the car going to the market?

Arnold Ziffle!

" Wreck at Marysville Kansas at RR crossing".
Very interesting photos. The photographer wrote his name on the negatives. In the first one it was on the '14 ford in the background with the replacement cowl and windshield. Those were interesting in themselves.
I wonder if the headlights are nickel and steel.
It's a wonderful cast of characters from the era.
Thanks for bringing it to us.
Rich

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:23 pm

TWrenn wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:36 am

Is that a PIG in the first pic, lower left corner? Maybe it was in the back seat of the car going to the market?

Arnold Ziffle!

LMAO Jerry!
One of my favorite shows!!

TWrenn wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 1:47 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 12:23 pm

TWrenn wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:36 am

Is that a PIG in the first pic, lower left corner? Maybe it was in the back seat of the car going to the market?

Arnold Ziffle!

LMAO Jerry!
One of my favorite shows!!

Mine too!

Rich P. Bingham wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:03 am

Tim, it sure looks like a pig, but I think it's a dog. Too small for a market hog in that era, and the bystanders are ignoring him - maybe they'd be paying some attention to escaped livestock ? I think it's a rock and shadow that makes it look like a piggy snout ?

Wayne, I always appreciate the "handle" you have on small details that earmark different years. My first T was a 1920 by engine number, but had what "the book" said were earlier features like forged running board irons and the early front spring clip. The headlights had socket connections low and off center of the buckets, and two bulb reflectors. The horn button was large and knurled of the type that operated the lights as well.

I haven't made up my mind about the animal. Back in those days, pigs and chickens were often allowed to roam freely around small towns. Both would usually go home at night and could mostly feed themselves. Pigs, unlike their general reputation for being filthy, were actually one of the cleanest animals in the barnyard! People in those days were not generally offended by pigs roaming around. However, pigs that did wander off and become feral, would often become mean, and can be dangerous or destructive.
At a glance, it looks like a pig. But not quite. Zooming in doesn't help much (at least to me?). The animal is a bit blurry, and I think turned its head quickly just as the photo was taken. There is no distinct shape to the head or face. And the animal's feet are down behind the railroad track making the front legs look shorter than they are.
I think you may be right? Likely a dog.
With the railroad track right there, the car was almost certainly hit by a train.

And thank you Rich B for the complement! When I was first getting really into model Ts (criminy! Over fifty years ago!), the first thing I learned was how little most people then really knew about the model T's production history. Some of the things I was being told made no sense whatsoever! Many people actually believed that the 1924/'25 style coupes began in 1917! To this day, there are still later coupes licensed and/or identified as pre 1920! They believed that the high radiator and everything else was just a variation on the earlier stuff!
Prevailing opinions had the running board brackets changing about 1918, and oil sidelamps were optional on ALL body styles until the very end. Today, we know those were wrong. But then, people believed those things, and dozens more.
I started out just enjoying looking at era photos in magazines and books. I liked the imagery, and the feeling I got looking into the past that way. Soon, I started getting out my magnifying glass, and looking closer.
Era photos can help a lot in the order of many changes, and give some clues to timelines. Other researchers can search through the archives that are too far away from me, and I read a lot of what they report on this and a couple other forums. Those records provide good clues to timelines for many of the changes.
The third area to look at is "empirical" evidence. The surviving cars, and what do they show being done when. That evidence gets smaller everyday as restorations and changes are made to existing cars. There are things I was able to see forty or more years ago that have been erased since. And some of the odd things I saw? I get more reluctant to tell about these days.
Part of the problem with empirical evidence is that after fifty to a hundred years, we really do not know for certain that a given car has not been monkeyed with or altered. An engine number might indicate the model year to be 1922. But how can we know for certain it wasn't a 1921? And there are several years where so many changes were made during a single year, that pinning down a car to the month would be helpful! But again, what including the engine might have been changed at some time in the past?

Rich B, It sounds as though your first T was a 1918 or 1919 model year car. That mostly from the combination horn/light switch was only used for maybe about a year and a half, except for a bit longer on the earliest TT trucks.
Those headlights are a bugaboo! I have been looking for a definitive answer for almost fifty years now. Prevailing opinion has drifted around several theories, some of which have proven out wrong. One theory for several years was that they were the elusive early 1915 headlamp. Numerous such lamps wound up with brass rims, and even on restored 1915s. Era records didn't support that idea, and era photographs by the hundreds were looked at VERY closely. Eventually, it was decided that the prevailing opinion was wrong. The only era photographs showing similar headlamp buckets were either Canadian fork mounted or USA prototype fork mounted or after-market advertisements. There were a few early 1915 odd variants on early production center-door sedans, and couplets, but they were not the same thing as the actual Ford lamps you described.
I have asked about those lamps myself several times, even started a couple threads myself. I never got what I would consider a definitive answer. Those lamps are common enough, that they must have been used for a significant portion of production for some amount of time. However, they are rare enough that they could not have been used for very long or on all production for very long. It does make sense that they MIGHT have been used in conjunction with the combination horn/light switch. But could they have been used on all such equipped cars? Surviving numbers and surviving cars suggest not, but I really do not know.
One theory I have heard a couple times is that they MIGHT have been used mostly on sedans and coupes for a bit over a year. Maybe?
I am still hoping to find a definitive answer on what and when those headlamps were used.
Unfortunately, this is one area that era photographs aren't helping a lot. Very few era photographs of model Ts clearly show the back of the headlamp bucket. For the 1915s, the front fender allows a view of the underside back of the bucket in a small percentage of photos. However, the 1917 and beyond fender doesn't show that area well enough.

Is it possible that some jurisdictions had not yet approved the electric headlights?

It looks like he had that car set up to drive at night; maybe rural Kansas - who knows...
The headlamps appear to be larger and set higher than stock Ford gas lamps.
Probably 7-inch mirrors which would use a 1-cubic foot burner.
I believe I see a Prest-O-Lite tank on the running board???
Compared to Magneto headlamps, I would go with that setup right away for reliability.
Rough roads and wind will not put those gas lamps out like that train did!

Compared to Magneto headlamps, I would go with that setup right away for reliability.

I find mag headlights plenty reliable. They're reliably dangerous — too dim and too limited in range for safe driving.