MTFCA Forum

Does anyone have any advertising or literature on this timer? I do not see much advantage to using one of these except for easier access to the roller. I am just going to use this as a shelf item. But would like to see some literature of the companies claim of advantage. This one does not show to have been used very much. Any literature and/or photos would be appreciated. Thank you

What does it say on the label?

It appears to be a timer "elevator" & WACO was a well known high tension magneto company.

WICO was widely known. I can't find anything on WACO.

The label says Ford super eight timer. Waco Mfg. Minneapolis Minnesota.

Even though it says super eight, it is still for a 4-cylinder engine.

Lyndon wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:37 am

The label says Ford super eight timer. Waco Mfg. Minneapolis Minnesota.

Even though it says super eight, it is still for a 4-cylinder engine.

Why does it have 8 contacts for the roller to hit then?

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:56 am

Lyndon wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:37 am

The label says Ford super eight timer. Waco Mfg. Minneapolis Minnesota.

Even though it says super eight, it is still for a 4-cylinder engine.

Why does it have 8 contacts for the roller to hit then?

Not the first timer I have seen with 8 contacts.
The extra contacts are non functional filler to minimize the faster wearing fiber insulation.

This only has places for 4 plug wires. And this fits a T. This is why I am wanting information and literature on this. John has some information posted above. Maybe this helps some.

As always, thanks for the correction Pat ! I was thinking "airplanes" !

I would be inclined to see if the 4 feed-throughs actually connect to to 4 discrete contacts each at 90 degrees to each other. From pictures, it looks like the contacts are 4 in a row across a 180 degree sweep, with 180 degrees of rotation totally dead with no contact hook ups for those 4 contacts. This thing may not be what everyone believes it is.

from the name, to the apparent variability (rotationally) of where the thing can sit against the engine, to the lack of traditional stabilizing mounts at its base, this thing is certainly an oddity

Scott, you are correct on the contacts. I just tried the drive gear, and it screws right on the end of the T camshaft. This fits perfectly on the end of the T timing cover. And why would they have called this a super eight? This also has a patent pending. So, I have no date to research the patent.

This is another aftermarket Model T timer to add the many other variations that appeared in the T era. Almost all are either a roller or wiper style. It always amazes me that the aftermarket timers that were a success were simply made no frills units. The two that came to mind are the Anco and New day which are still around and being reproduced. And of course the original style roller timer which is what Model T’s came off the assembly line with.

In other words Simple always works best. There are other opinions to be sure!

Just a guess, but over the top advertising copy.
Gives your ford 4 cylinder the power of an 8 cylinder.

Could it possibley be related to the WWI tanks with dual T engines?

Did anyone make a twin ignition head for the T with two spark plugs?

Maybe the contacts are arranged so that the plugs are meant to also fire on the exhaust stroke, as a way to burn off oils and carbon. Can you do a continuity test to see if each terminal is connected to 2 contacts?

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:00 pm

Did anyone make a twin ignition head for the T with two spark plugs?

That timer won't fire 8 plugs, neither in pairs* nor in any sequential firing order.

*Unless each of the 4 terminals fired 2 coils, in an 8 coil system. But even then, that still wouldn't explain 8 contacts.

Waste spark ignition…

Kevin Pharis wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:28 pm

Waste spark ignition…

Yes. As I mentioned above. But, you said it better!

Continuity test shows that it fires on 2 terminals. Each opposite of each other.

Could it be that the ratio of the gears makes it rotate half the camshaft speed ? The teeth on the gear shown seem rather steep ? In effect it would fire each cylinder twice in one complete revolution of the roller but with two revolutions of the cam shaft and four revolutions of the crank shaft.
Weird !

Well obviously you need to hook it up and try it out.
At least that’s what I’d do but I like to see how the T after market stuff worked. I’m just curious that way. It’d be fun to find out.

Kevin Pharis wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:28 pm

Waste spark ignition…

Right on! It is a Wasted Spark design just like the True Fire system (coil box & timer). The True Fire Rotor had two opposing contacts so it could fire the primary cylinder on the compression stroke (for example cylinder 1) and its complement on the exhaust stroke (#4).
--
The concept behind a Wasted Spark.... well read all this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_spark_system
--
The name Super 8 relates to the 8 contacts & a single flapper (functions the same as the True Fire). Note also that the contacts are on the underside of the unit likely to reduce exposure to the elements

If the contacts opposed to each other share continuity then I would suspect that the timer itself runs at 1/2 speed. Perhaps the thought was to minimize wear and thus somehow boost performance. It's rarity would indicate that the designer was probably wrong.

An interesting curiosity to be sure.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 07, 2023 10:35 am

If the contacts opposed to each other share continuity then I would suspect that the timer itself runs at 1/2 speed. Perhaps the thought was to minimize wear and thus somehow boost performance. It's rarity would indicate that the designer was probably wrong.

An interesting curiosity to be sure.

Given the shape of the lower housing, it does appear that there might be room for a distributor shaft gear with 2X the number of teeth as the camshaft gear. I'd think it might have been easier however to adjust the helix angle of the gears to achieve a different ratio. The gear shown appears to have a 45 degree helix. Maybe the OP can post a photo of the other gear??

If a roller timer ran at 1/2 the normal speed, it would certainly wear longer and be less subject to "skip". Cold weather problems might be reduced.

I wonder why Ford allowed the Ford name to be used on the label. Perhaps they sued or obtained an injunction.

As for rarity, there could be a number of reasons for that besides performance. Cost is one consideration, and fierce competition from other, similar devices might be another. Competition for start up capital among would be accessory manufacturers was no doubt also fierce.

It might have the wrong roller/contact installed. If the ORIGINAL roller was a “double” contact that contacted segments 180 degrees apart at the same time, it would be sort of a double failsafe system. They may have made it to also accept the regular roller so it could be easily replaced if the original failed.

The cam gear has 14 teeth. The timer gear has 28 teeth. I am still searching for an advertisement. I have several wholesale hardware catalogs. Most of them out of St Louis MO. They usually have automobile sections just like Montgomery Ward and Sears had. I know that Marshall Wells Co out of Minnesota sold car parts. Even Bingham's Best Brand did also. Thinking they might have sold or advertised something like this. Since these companies were in that area. But so far, I am not having any luck. Advertisements would tell it all. Whether it worked or not. Where I got this was out of some stuff that came out of MInnesota.

Lyndon wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 07, 2023 6:40 pm

The cam gear has 14 teeth. The timer gear has 28 teeth. I am still searching for an advertisement. I have several wholesale hardware catalogs. Most of them out of St Louis MO. They usually have automobile sections just like Montgomery Ward and Sears had. I know that Marshall Wells Co out of Minnesota sold car parts. Even Bingham's Best Brand did also. Thinking they might have sold or advertised something like this. Since these companies were in that area. But so far, I am not having any luck. Advertisements would tell it all. Whether it worked or not. Where I got this was out of some stuff that came out of MInnesota.

Cool! Leo and Scott have it right! The rotor turns at 1/2 speed. I can't see how this wouldn't be an improvement. It would be fun to use!

As I believe Scott mentioned however, there's no obvious way to brace the housing against slipping/rotating in its mounting. Maybe there's a bracket that's missing? Anyway, I like it!

Just noticed, the part of the housing marked "U.S.A." has machined edges that might have engaged with a slot in a special timer clamp.

Correction, Waco was in MI and OH, not IN.

Waco, Weaver Airplane Co in the 1920’s.

Jerry I noticed that flange also. I would imagine that there would be a heavier made holder with a slot that fit snugly around the flange to hold the assembly tight. Looking at the control adjustment arm how would the advance rod be connected to it? Perhaps a similar type connection that the vaporizer had but on the advance rod with the connector to the steering column positioned higher up & not at the bottom. Hope that makes sense.

I found a very brief mention of a rebuilder of old tractor magnetos who rebuilds magnetos and Waco magneto is mentioned but that’s it. It was on a vintage tractor page. If it was well know it must have been short lived. WICO magnetos are widely mentioned but not WACO. Also a Waco aircraft company is mentioned on the web.
I’ve been wondering about the name because I live around Waco Texas and haven’t seen anything mentioned about it around here.
I wonder how they came up with the name Waco. Probably will never know for sure.

I have found this on the internet

Waco Manufacturing Company :: Minnesota (US) :: …
Company Number e8040fce-a0d4-e011-a886-001ec94ffe7f Native Company Number 24923-AA Status Inactive Incorporation Date 22 May 1926 (over 96 years ago) Company Type Business Corporation (Domestic) Jurisdiction Minnesota (US) Registered Address. Mpls, MN, USA; United States; Governing Legislation. 302A; Registry Page https://mblsportal.sos.state.mn.us/Bu...
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But it does not tell me anything about the company. There has to be more information about this company out there. I decided to see if there was a Waco MN. There was not. But there was a...

Waconia, Minnesota - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waconia,_Minnesota
Waconia is a city in Carver County, Minnesota, United States. Waconia attracts visitors to nearby Lake Waconia, a lake locally renowned for its fishing and recreation opportunities. The city's population was 13,033 at the 2020 census.

This town is due west of Minneapolis MN. Just a possible connection. But nothing definite.

In the case of Waco, Texas, the name may be an anglicized version of the Spanish "hueco".

I've heard of the Waco airplanes, but I don't know anything about them.

Lyndon you may on to something about the Waconia connection. Thanks for in depth information. Anyway the company didn’t make timers to long.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:42 pm

In the case of Waco, Texas, the name may be an anglicized version of the Spanish "hueco".

I've heard of the Waco airplanes, but I don't know anything about them.

Internet Search reveals the National Waco Club . This link gives a muti-part history of that WACO Aircraft Company which started in Troy, Ohio https://www.nationalwacoclub.com/waco-a ... o-company/

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 08, 2023 5:42 pm

In the case of Waco, Texas, the name may be an anglicized version of the Spanish "hueco".

I've heard of the Waco airplanes, but I don't know anything about them.

Internet Search reveals the National Waco Club . This link gives a mutipart history of that WACO Aircraft Company which started in Troy, Ohio https://www.nationalwacoclub.com/waco-a ... o-company/

Lyndon, does the the Waco device actually fit on a model T timing gear cover Snugly?

I put this on an extra motor that I had laying around. And yes, this does fit snugly.

I'm a Minneapolis resident so this piqued my interest so I did some casual research.

I perused a number of Minneapolis City Directories starting in the teens and into the early 1930s but Waco Manufacturing is not listed. Unless a business was located in Minneapolis proper, it typically wouldn't be listed in the directories.

In the 1950s, there was a Waco Manufacturing Co. located at 3565 Wooddale Ave in St. Louis Park, MN which is a first ring suburb of Minneapolis. I looked in older St. Louis Park City Directories back to the early 1930s but could find no other references in the directories.

In a piece of 1950s sales literature I was able to find online, Waco used Minneapolis in its 3565 Wooddale Street address instead of St. Louis Park. Using the major city instead of the suburb in the address is still common practice today.

https://archive.org/details/wacomanufac ... 6/mode/2up

I also found an article in a professional journal regarding another product they manufactured - steel bleachers.

I doubt there is a connection to Waconia, MN. Waconia is 30 miles from Minneapolis and in a different county for that matter. Today, it is considered a a metropolitan suburb but, 100 years ago, it would not have been considered Minneapolis. Back then it was rural and also a summer tourist destination due to the lake (Lake Waconia is great in the summer).