MTFCA Forum

New to the forum - don't own a Model T - know very little about them.

Considering buying a particular Model T 4-door sedan that I found on classiccars.com.

It's local but I haven't even looked at it yet but it does photo well. Not original but looks close to original from the outside. The drivetrain is off a 1978 Chevy Luv with an automatic transmission. From the photos it looks clean inside, underneath, and under the hood. And by clean, I mean spotless.

It is listed at $14,000.

Plan is to contact the seller and schedule a time this weekend to check it out in person. I don't know anyone personally who has knowledge of the Model T so I am appealing the bottomless pit of knowledge that is MTFCA.

Would appreciate any comments, suggestions, or advice.

Cheers to all and thanks in advance.

With a modern-ish Chevy driveline, the only thing anyone might comment on is the body. It's not a Model T, so if you like it and it suits your needs/desires, buy it. I cannot see how anyone in the "T" hobby will be able to persuade you one way or another...it's a custom creation and if that's what you're looking for, then I guess you've found it. If you're looking for an actual Model T, well, you haven't found it yet.

It's a Model T body on a later model compact pickup chassis. (I guess). It's impossible to tell from here if the resulting vehicle is a well-executed build. It's an odd duck, for sure.
What's it worth? I have no idea. I'd approach it with extreme caution. 14 K will buy a pretty nice stock or near-stock Model T, if you want a Model T. ** The Chevy LUV pickup was actually built by Izusu in Japan. As configured and sold in the USA, it has been out of production for over 40 years. Parts might be scarce.

Forgot to mention. The model year is 1927

Hi Morris, glad you’re interested in old vehicles. I’m sure there are a few folks here that have something like that and in a small way enjoy being on both sides of the fence. Mostly what you’ll find on the forums are people that are more geared to keeping the T models mostly stock with the exception of more modern components such as aluminum pistons, adjustable lifters, stainless steel valves & perhaps a better performing cam shaft. You’ll also find folks here that enjoy building period style speedsters using original engines that have been built with enhanced performance some but not many approaching 60mph. For the most part you’ll find a significant number of folks that like speeds in the high 20’s to 35 mph & trying to keep the car that changed the world as stock as possible. Sort of life in the slow lane. These are just my opinions but very happy you’ve considered looking at buying an older car.
The 1927 models are the most compatible for modern drive trains. Let me know how I can help. Best John

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:28 pm

It's a Model T body on a later model compact pickup chassis. (I guess). It's impossible to tell from here if the resulting vehicle is a well-executed build. It's an odd duck, for sure.
What's it worth? I have no idea. I'd approach it with extreme caution. 14 K will buy a pretty nice stock or near-stock Model T, if you want a Model T.

It is definitely not a model t body on a Chevy Luv chassis. Just an engine swap. At least as far as I can tell.

https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1 ... zona-85122

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:48 pm

Hi Morris, glad you’re interested in old vehicles. I’m sure there are a few folks here that have something like that and in a small way enjoy being on both sides of the fence. Mostly what you’ll find on the forums are people that are more geared to keeping the T models mostly stock with the exception of more modern components such as aluminum pistons, adjustable lifters & perhaps a better performing cam shaft. You’ll also find folks here that enjoy building period style speedsters using original engines that have been built with enhanced performance some but not many approaching 60mph. For the most part you’ll find a significant number of folks that like speeds in the high 20’s to 35 mph & trying to keep the car that changed the world as stock as possible. Sort of life in the slow lane. These are just my opinions but very happy you’ve considered looking at buying an older car.
The 1927 model are the most compatible for modern drive trains. Let me know how I can help. Best John

It takes all kinds and there's a place for the all. Personally, I wouldn't buy a t-bucket with a gun to my head but I don't doubt for second that they're fun to drive.

I suspect most on here appreciate authenticity. A pure stock vintage vehicle, whether its a Model T or a Diamond T, should stay that way in my humble opinion. And there's various types of authenticity. A hotrod Model T with a flathead V8 and 50's vintage Offenhauser heads shouldn't be a candidate for LS1 swap. Even though it's a thousand miles removed from original condition there's still a lot of nostalgia worth maintaining in such a car.

my two sense

Adapting an 80 HP Izusu 4 cylinder engine and automatic transmission to a Model T body and chassis would be a major challenge. Not to say it can't be done, but it would not be an easy or straightforward job. Among other problems, the Ford T rear axle, driveshaft, and brakes would not be at all suited, nor would the steering system and front and rear suspension. Nor would the frame, radiator, etc. Then there is the matter of brakes. The Model T had no front brakes, and not much in the way of brakes at all. The T had no rear service brakes, no front brakes at all, and it depended on a single drum brake located in the transmission for general braking.

Indeed Morris, thanks for the link. The pictures show a nice looking 4 door sedan & based on the engine bay you shouldn’t have to many issues on cooling depending on your location but I would want to drive it a bit just to be sure overheating is not an issue. The frame & chassis picture wasn’t clear enough for me to see a lot of detail but from what I could see, if it is a T frame has had a lot of modifications but apparently no upgrade to the steering Per Pat’s comments do check on that braking. You’ve got a lot of weight mid frame forward. If you can get more pictures, do please post them.
Best John

Having now seen the candidate car, I have to ask: considering there are 100's of actual Model T's for sale in the USA every day, what is it about this particular car that appeals to you? Knowing that will go a long way toward offering you advice.

Morris it appears to be a Fordor which has significantly more wood in its skeleton than other 1927 models for a T.
I’ve got a 1926 Fordor & they are heavy T’s. Here’s a few pictures for the forum.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:10 pm

Adapting an 80 HP Izusu 4 cylinder engine and automatic transmission to a Model T body and chassis would be a major challenge. Not to say it can't be done, but it would not be an easy or straightforward job. Among other problems, the Ford T rear axle, driveshaft, and brakes would not be at all suited, nor would the steering system and front and rear suspension. Nor would the frame, radiator, etc. Then there is the matter of brakes. The Model T had no front brakes, and not much in the way of brakes at all. The T had no rear service brakes, no front brakes at all, and it depended on a single drum brake located in the transmission for general braking.

Appreciate the helpful info. This brings up a lot of questions I can ask before even taking the time to go look at the car.

Images in the online posting appear to show the engine to be a nice fit and it's clearly not the original radiator. There are also pictures underneath but I don't know if the rear end is original or not but I seriously doubt it. There appear to drum brakes on the rear. The front axle looks to be stock. It's a solid axle with a leaf spring but I lack any expertise to know for sure. The steering system also looks stock which would make sense if the front axle is stock.

Thanks for feedback.

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:36 pm

Having now seen the candidate car, I have to ask: considering there are 100's of actual Model T's for sale in the USA every day, what is it about this particular car that appeals to you? Knowing that will go a long way toward offering you advice.

It's close, the price seems fair (though I'm more than willing to be corrected on that point), and it's easier to drive than a stock Model T (assuming it is as advertised).

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:40 pm

Morris it appears to be a Fordor which has significantly more wood in its skeleton than other 1927 models for a T.
I’ve got a 1926 Fordor & they are heavy T’s. Here’s a few pictures for the forum.

Thanks for the help!

What does "more wood in its skeleton" mean?

OK, there are lots of "T"s being offered for a fair price...as for easy driving, have you ever actually driven a "T" to make that comparison or or come to that conclusion?

You're going to do what you're going to do, and I will quit now with the questions. Good luck and be absolutely sure you want this thing...it isn't a hot rod, it isn't an antique, and it isn't any safer than either of the aforementioned (perhaps far less so, in fact). Hot Rods have their aficionados; Model T's have their aficionados; I'm not sure what you would call this car, but by whatever name, you will face a very very small pool of potential buyers should you ever decide this thing was a mistake and wish to get out of it.

Hi Morris

If you want a Model T then don’t buy that.
If you live in Tempe, AZ there are some
snowbirds in the east valley who can
mentor you and possibly point you
in the right direction regarding a specific car

Good Luck

FJ

Wood pictured courtesy of Fordwood.com, I’d encourage you to make sure the wood is solid with little rot, if not run, run very fast.

Not original but looks close to original from the outside.

Yes, but why? If I want to get somewhere fast I drive my Camry. If I have the time and want to enjoy an old car, I drive a real one. In my case that's a Model T, mostly stock. It's a free country and everybody can do anything he wants, automotively. But part of the allure of these ancient chariots is their century-old technology. Being retired and having the time, I love to go off on an interstate Model T drive (but not on interstates, of course). I've never traveled in that kind of a Frankencar, but I expect it would be much less fun than the real thing.

...it's easier to drive than a stock Model T...

How much have you driven a stock Model T? Driving a T is certainly different from a modern car, but I don't find it particularly difficult. After all, many millions of people have done it.

Unless you're talking early brass cars, 14 grand is at the upper end of the Model T market. You can get a very nice real Model T for that kind of dough.

Am I trying to talk you out of this in favor of a real T? Yeah, I guess I am. I would hate to see you plunk down that kind of dinero on this thing just because you happened to find it close, and miss out on the fun of the genuine article.

JTT3 wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 9:55 pm

Wood pictured courtesy of Fordwood.com, I’d encourage you to make sure the wood is solid with little rot, if not run, run very fast.

This is very helpful. I didn't even know there was wood in the frame. Seriously! That fact alone gives me strong pause and warns me the tread lightly.

Thanks,

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:47 pm

Not original but looks close to original from the outside.

Yes, but why? If I want to get somewhere fast I drive my Camry. If I have the time and want to enjoy an old car, I drive a real one. In my case that's a Model T, mostly stock. It's a free country and everybody can do anything he wants, automotively. But part of the allure of these ancient chariots is their century-old technology. Being retired and having the time, I love to go off on an interstate Model T drive (but not on interstates, of course). I've never traveled in that kind of a Frankencar, but I expect it would be much less fun than the real thing.

...it's easier to drive than a stock Model T...

How much have you driven a stock Model T? Driving a T is certainly different from a modern car, but I don't find it particularly difficult. After all, many millions of people have done it.

Unless you're talking early brass cars, 14 grand is at the upper end of the Model T market. You can get a very nice real Model T for that kind of dough.

Am I trying to talk you out of this in favor of a real T? Yeah, I guess I am. I would hate to see you plunk down that kind of dinero on this thing just because you happened to find it close, and miss out on the fun of the genuine article.

Never drove a Model T but I'm sure it's not overly difficult. I learned to drive a tractor as a kid and the functionality was similar; throttle on the wheel, brake on the right, etc. Nevertheless, what I'm accustomed to is the more conventional arrangement. It's not a major factor in considering this car but it is a fact that it's easier to drive. For me, not being a purist, it could be on the positive side of the scales.

I think I've decided not to move forward on this. Two persuasive points brought to my attention here. First, it's not as good a deal as I thought and second, I did not know about all the wood in the body. The wood was the main deciding factor - I don't trust my competency to properly take care of that body.

Cheers to all and thanks for all the amazingly informative feedback.

Asperous wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:40 am

I think I've decided not to move forward on this. Two persuasive points brought to my attention here. First, it's not as good a deal as I thought and second, I did not know about all the wood in the body. The wood was the main deciding factor - I don't trust my competency to properly take care of that body.

Cheers to all and thanks for all the amazingly informative feedback.

There is a Model T Club right in Mesa AZ. East Valley Model T Ford Club https://evmtfc.com/
Get in touch with them. You'll be mentored, taught to drive,etc.

Along with Model T ownership you'll get in discussions with some that like to be 100% original to month/yr, some to just a year, some within a date range or some just period correct. The problem is that they ALL have good advice!

It does look good in the pictures. However, it appears to have a stock frame and front and rear axles, no front brakes, and probably stock rear brakes. The front radius rod socket would have to have been fabricated, and doing that correctly is critical to correct steering system function. If the rear axle brakes are unmodified, they are actually parking brakes, not service brakes. The Izusu engine has about 4 times the HP rating of the original engine, and should have a lot more torque via its automatic transmission. That could be a problem if the frame and rear axle are anywhere near stock. It appears that the car lacks front brakes. That's an issue, for sure. The vehicle could be safe to drive, if its limitations are respected. It might not pass state inspection. I'd want to check into that. The car may have cooling issues, as well as a number of other issues. If you're not well-versed mechanically, you need to have someone who is look the car over very closely. I'd also want someone with Model T experience to look it over, and give you some guidance on what is and what isn't actually Model T. It's a very odd duck, for certain.

Didn't look that close, but it looks like one of the few cars that was "adapted" with a Pinto engine in it since they fit in the engine space. Nice looking car, but....glad you're changing your mind. I could be wrong, but I swear this car was for sale for at least 2 years or more in various ads, including Hemmings. If so, there's a reason for that of course! Good luck.

The original Model T engine/transmission unit serves as a frame crossmember while providing an attachment and alignment point for both the front and rear axle assemblies. The engine/transmission unit also contains the car's service brake and universal joint. The brake, clutch, and gear shifting pedals and linkages are all part of the engine/transmission unit.

Replacing the Model T engine/transmission unit with any other type while retaining the Model T chassis and running gear is a major challenge.

In most cases, it's easier, cheaper, and safer to build or adapt an entire chassis to accommodate the T body.

If you want an old car that is more "Modern" than a Model T, a Model A Ford is a good choice.
The Model A has normal driver controls, 4 wheel brakes, steering much like a modern car, is capable of 55 to 60 MPH, and they're available at reasonable cost.
But a Model A, unlike a Model T, will not start itself.

That will go fast enough to be extremely dangerous. It still has Model T steering, 2 wheel brakes of some kind, & a stock rear end that won't live well with modern power going through it. The wood in the body would be the least of your worries. I will say, it looks to be nicely done. If it came my way, I'd throw the engine away and re-power it with a T engine.