What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

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What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Catbird » Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:54 am

It seems like most Model Ts have been upgraded over the almost over 100 years since 1908 and 1927. Certainly engine numbers showing blocks that have been added or upgraded and made by Ford up until 1941 are not an indicator.

What does define a year?
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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by TMiller6 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:15 am

For purposes of titling, I believe we the owners do in the event there is insufficient paperwork. This probably explains how many “Model Ts” allegedly made in 1923 have 327 Chevrolet engines.

My friend just got amTT dump truck and is trying to ascertain the year. We both looked it over and are making guesses based on the rear axle, how many rivets are in the brake quadrant, etc. I did a similar exercise on my spare frame by looking for holes for a battery carrier that should not be there. Others look at running board holes.

It’s easy to look at my car and say it’s a 1926 or 27. The details tell you more. How is the trunk braced? Do the doors have stamped curtain holes or separate grommets? How are the headlights mounted? How is the upholstery attached? How do the A pillars match up to the cowl?

On earlier cars, the presence of a “rivet” in front of the rear doors can tell you something, Oval or square top irons can be another indicator as will the windshield hinges. Rear axle housings can tell you something,

In the end, it’s all a matter of reading the documentation and doing detective work. A Model T is more than just an engine.
Tom Miller
One who cannot find beauty in an engine cannot find beauty in the universe.

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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:16 am

There were changes constantly, sometimes many changes at the same time. In some cases a single feature is unique to a particular year, like the 1923 steel firewall. It was used in new Fords from January through July of 1923. But it was also sold as a replacement part for earlier Fords, so you also have to consider other features. I haven't researched to confirm this, but I think it's possible to determine the year of any T without considering the engine. But then you run into a parts salad, put together with pieces from several years. Do you go by the frame?
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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:24 am

To the best of my knowledge, Model Ts were not assigned a model year by Ford Motor Company.


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Been Here Before » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:51 am

From my limited years with a Model T, the determining factor of defining a "year" for a Model T is the engine number...mainly that the engine should be in the correct production design. Note as stated a 350/289 cuin in a Model t with fiber glass roadster body is not a model t - no mater the year..

As a Model T is defined as either Brass (1908/09 -1916/17), Black Shell (1917-1924/25) (Subset of non-electric and electric), or Improved (1925-1927).

The engine number in a car should be with in the proper production year of Brass, Black, or improved.

It is interesting that during the manufactured life of the Model T, the Producers of the Model T encouraged those who changed the engine to keep the motor number originally found in a particular chassis.
Scanfordnumbers.jpg
Too, I guess it depends on what you want to say about you particular Model T. To stand a round a 1922 tub with a 350 and say that it is a 1922 Model T, or to have the providence documented that it is a 1922 Coupe.
Scanmodeltartical.jpg
Last edited by Been Here Before on Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by JTT3 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:55 am

I believe it’s possible they could have based on early pre T original sales literature.
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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:00 am

One of the many benefits accruing to Humanity from the activities of Ford Motor Company was Ford's busting-up of the "Selden Patent" racket.


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:12 pm

You could do the same with a person who has had organ transplants. What if a 50 year man received the heart of a 20 year old? Would he be considered 20 or 50 years old? What about artificial joints or limbs? Same thing applies to the car.
I would count the year as what the majority of parts are. a couple of other divisions between Brass Black Improved would be Early brass with open front seats or later brass with closed front doors. Also Black era, Low Radiator High radiator and two man top or one man top. So there are actually 3 different eras of black cars.
Most people who see the cars today, don't even know what they are! I have had people ask if my 26 is a 30's or 40's car. Kind of like if you meet a stranger in an elevator and assume they are Chinese, but they are Korean or Japanese and feel insulted if you ask them if they are visiting from China. Much better to ask, "Where are you visiting from?" Let them answer.
Here in California I bought what was registered as a '22. The engine number didn't match the one on the registration. However the insurance information had '22 with the number under the hood which is a '26 engine.
I took the car and had it inspected by the California Highway Patrol and they verified the engine was not stolen and the car is now registered as a '22.
No problem to me, because it is a driver and parade car also take it to some shows which have no entrance fee nor judging.
Judging is a farce anyway. Way back in the 1960's when I had Model A's I drove one from San Diego to San Francisco and parked in Golden Gate Park with many Model A's, Some had driven across the United states to get there. Others were trailered in and pushed into place. The only ones to receive high awards were local cars with no oil or drip and the sand pits on the engines even ground down and polished. One car got an award for having driven the farthest to the location from Florida! No more judging shows for me!
Norm

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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by TRDxB2 » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:13 pm

The MTFCA Forum Encyclopedia notes that "he engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the engine NOT the car. https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm."
BUT if the owner is attempting to restore for a particular state of assembly (as it came off the assembly line or as purchased from the dealer, for judging etc) then the engine year as well as all the other parts need to be correct.
--
Now ever State & Insurance company is likely to have their own criteria for identifying Make/Model/Year. But most will go by a generic image not nitty gritty details like rivet positions. So in dating a modified vehicle, your DMV is likely to first look at to make sure its not a hot rod, gow job etc.
Here is Illinois DMV rules for Custom Vehicles & Street Rods - reason for showing this is that it is what may first pop up in the head if looking at a Model T Speedster. , Model that Ford never made.
These rules are very straight forward and I think just the Model rule needs to be changed for Model T's
- The "make" of the vehicle on the title/registration will be the same as the manufacturer of the body (e.g., "Ford" if the custom vehicle or street rod is built from a Ford body, or "Superformance" if the custom vehicle or street rod is built from a kit with a body from that manufacturer).
- The "model" listed on the title/registration will be "Street Rod" (if the vehicle is built to resemble a 1948 or older model) or "Custom Vehicle" (if the vehicle is built to resemble a 1949 or newer vehicle). NO! for a Model T it is the Body Style - Touring, Roadster, Speedster etc
- The "year" listed on the title/registration will be the year of vehicle it is designed to resemble[/b]. (Examples: a replica 1966 Cobra would be Make: Cobra; Model: Custom Vehicle; Year: 1966. A 1923 T-Bucket would be Make: Ford; Model: Street Rod; Year: 1923.).
- The VIN listed on the title/registration will be the VIN shown on the body. (If this VIN does not conform to the layout of current manufacturer's VINs, the Secretary of State computer program will be overridden and the VIN appearing on the body will be entered.) If the manufacturer does not affix a VIN to the body, a Secretary of State-assigned VIN must be assigned and affixed.
- The body style listed on the title/registration will be the actual body style of the completed custom vehicle or street rod (e.g., coupe, sedan, convertible).

Make - Ford
Model - Touring
Year - 1925 (what most of looks like)
VIN - A VIN number is to be a unique single identifier across all Titled vehicles GLOBALLY. Currently each Manufacturer has their own coding method. So here you are at the mercy of your registration clerk. NOW the first thing is to understand your state's VIN rule. So in Illinois when they ask for the VIN number, one can say the number on the body is this (your choice body or engine but don't specify your choice just the number). If they can't work with that, see if you can influence the the 17 position VIN with something like this (1925MODELT12062487) or even (MODELT12062487
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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:25 pm

In California, at least where I had the car registered, there is not a designation, "Touring" so my 26 Touring is called a 4 door. I don't know what they would call the older touring's there is no designation 3 door either!
Norm


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:14 pm

Norman Kling wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:25 pm
In California, at least where I had the car registered, there is not a designation, "Touring" so my 26 Touring is called a 4 door. I don't know what they would call the older touring's there is no designation 3 door either!
Norm
:lol: My runabout is a "one-door" :lol: Consider the plight of owners of 1912 and earlier cars - "no door" ?!? 😳😂
Get a horse !

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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:30 pm

...the Producers of the Model T encouraged those who changed the engine to keep the motor number originally found in a particular chassis.

Assembled engines came from the factory bearing serial numbers. Bare blocks were unnumbered, to be stamped with the number of the presumably ruined block they replaced. Did Ford sell completely assembled engines. Obviously, yes. They kept making them long after they quit making the cars, up to 1941. I'd like to know if they continued making blocks after 1941. I suppose it's theoretically possible to have a 1909 T with a 26-27 style block, and stamped with the 1909 serial number of the original block, but mighty unlikely.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:00 pm

Some other things to consider: Cars sold toward the end of the calendar year are sometimes designated by the following year model. Some states registered them by model year and others by the year first sold. So it is possible that cars left over from last years model and sold in January would be dated the year sold and others in other states would be dated according to the model year. and vs versa. There is a particularly difficulty with year 22 and 23. I have known some people with the one man top registered as 22 and other cars with the two man top also registered 22 as well as the low or high radiator. Possibly Ford plants used up the parts left over and updated after they were sold.
Norm
Last edited by Norman Kling on Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:26 pm

Norm made a great comment about how Ford used up parts from the previous year and put on the next year. T’s can be to a point identified by their body style. Brass era from 09-16. Low cowl 17- early 23. High cowl 24-25 and improved T’s 26-27.
There are details in those 4 time frames that you can narrow down to to get it pretty close to what year it actually is. But it takes even more details to figure that out.

And that depends if the car in question is as it was the moment it came off Fords assembly line!! So go figure! Ford wasn’t using a T shaped cookie cutter to make them all exactly the same!


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Catbird » Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:53 pm

Since Ford made Model T engines until 1941. So if I stuck one of these in a Model T frame, I could have a 1941 Model T!
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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:09 pm

I could have a 1941 Model T!

You could have a Model T with a 1941 engine. If I put a 1923 engine in a 1919, the vehicle remains a 1919. It doesn't become a 1923 because of the engine swap.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Catbird » Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:22 am

Steve, I am joking!
Bill

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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Alan Long » Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:59 am

Hey Norm.
Forget my Model T’s! I’m having a Stem Cell Transplant from European Donor who is under 22 years of age and a
50/50 chance it’s a Female!! Where does that leave a 69 year old Bloke? Hopefully Cancer free for the rest of my natural life!
Alan In Western Australia


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:17 pm

Depends on how you wish to identify, sweetie.
Last edited by speedytinc on Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:17 pm

Depends on how you wish to identify, sweetie. :lol:

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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by George Mills » Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:55 pm

There is no 'official' version as others have said.

Ford ran by fiscal year but in most states the original title was based on a calendar year.

Did Ford have 'tight' cut in dates for changes? The real answer is hardly...even though most believe because they are use to the 50's and 60's when there were hard shuts and retools in August at just about every car builder. Ford proved to the world that he could not handle bulk hard date changes first with the improved car...then turned around and repeated it with the '28 A (where A folks tend to shy away from)...For Ch@@y, it was duck soup as their lines were set up in the first place to be flexible manufacturing centers.

Is there an early 15 (built before Jan 1915) model year Roadster? Anyone ever check that Ford had thousands of '14's and '14 parts left over at branches come end of summer 1914? OOOOPS.

Some hold that revision dates on piece parts might yield provenance...unfortunately industrial anthropology of the time says that conventional practice of the times was to mark up a drawing for first off production batches, then do official revisions batched in arrears and usually such revisions were done by the most junior draftsman in the hall. Did Ford follow this practice? We don't know...but pretty much everyone else evolving in the American System of Manufacturing actually did!

An example I hold and folks have come around to is Aluminum Hogs heads carried over from 1915 'accepted model' year are legit and not bogus attempts at '16's being fake '15's... but can accept that probably none were left by the end of the calendar year by any stretch of the imagination.

I hold that many closed cars in the spring of 1925 actually had the bigger rear ends in them from the outset. Folks then back build to what they think applied because Ford never documented when the big rears started and in doing so ruin a true provenance in the process just to be socially correct...my guess would only be in Michagan, but I'll admit that is a guess. There are WAY too many still surviving examples left of closed cars built as late 25 models during the spring having large drum rears to be an accident or a replacement for factory crap being produced new in a single batch.

Ford didn't time their usage like we do with modern systems today...suppose they were buying a million of something, or ordering a million of something that was simple. If they wound up with excess did they throw away or rework? If they wound up short, who got let go?

As long as their is no note in the archives that confirms the true exact provenance of something, then its always a jump ball with this group :lol: :lol: :lol:

My own advice to folks is to use Bruce book as a primary source, check with MTFCI judging standards for your year...apply to be a certified judge within MTFCI...lol...its fun to be recognized that you passed the course on what is acceptable...or not... Bruce was ALWAYS open to change and revision, just passed on too soon. Bruce even confided in me many years ago right after edition 1 of the Bible was printed...he allowed some things to stay as Editor-in-chief that he really felt queasy about, but the committee was near unanimous in their voice about. That's not tossing rocks...that's just revealing what the man said to me when it was I researching things for him for the future CD edition, an item Bruce did not for convenience, but for the ability to edit.
Last edited by George Mills on Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:04 pm

At least as concerns repair parts, I've often seen announcements of changes in part design, followed by "When present stocks are exhausted, use ...... "


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Original Smith » Mon Jan 30, 2023 10:30 am

All of my cars are registered in California, and they say what the car is. What's the problem?


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Re: What defines a Model T as being a particular year?

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:39 am

My first car was a 1929 Model A. It was first sold in January 1929. It had some features of the 28. It had the red steering wheel. It had the Pinch top parking brake lever but was in front of the gearshift. Later they used one with a button at the top. It did, however have the single disk clutch. While I had the car I bought a used engine from a wrecking yard and installed it. I found out who the owner of the car had been from whom the engine was taken and he signed off a form which gave me ownership of the engine. I then went to the DMV and had the engine number changed on the registration. I don't even know what year the "new" engine was, but it ran. This was back in 1952 so don't know whether that would work today.
Norm

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