MTFCA Forum

Hypothetical.......

Model T Fords are to be identified by the motor engine number. The early Ford manuals suggest that when a new block or motor is place in a car whose motor needs to be replaced, the mechanic use stencils to place the old motor number on the new motor block....

So, should a 1927 roadster be reconstructed, whose title and older registration you have in hand, and the original motor be replaced, say with a 455 GM motor, would it be proper to stamp the original 1927 motor number on the replacement 455. Would the car be identified as a 1927 Ford Model T?

Asking for a friend.

It would vary from state to state. Idaho used motor numbers for years but now insist on the frame number. Lacking a frame number, they rivet a metallic red and silver tag to some prominent place. UGLY! They do accept the data plate if it has a number on it.
Stamping a number is a felony here.
Rich

Hypothetically...well, its cold outside so I will play along...for your friend. The Ford article implies replacing a model T engine block with a new unmarked model T engine block, failing that makes the discussion mute. When your friend replaces a 1927 model T engine with a modern GM 455 engine it seems to automatically become a 1923 roadster in most states for title purposes.

You see! Many don't like California and move to Idaho but Idaho has some bad laws too!
Norm

George John,
In Arizona I have seen model Ts with the AZDMV blue & silver sticker usually if they are titled with only a bill of sale. Both of my Ts are
titled off of the engine serial # . This means if I break a block and have to replace the engine & will need to go to DMV to change the
# on the title. But I can take the engine out & install it in an other T and it will be titled as the same car. I'm not sure of Federal Motor
Carrier regulations but in the state of Arizona if you add, alter, deface or remove a serial # you can be fined, jailed & they will
confiscate the vehicle and either sell it at auction or destroy it. Doing anything to a serial# is considered a criminal act the same as it
is on a firearm.
Craig.

Been Here Before wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:33 pm

Hypothetical.......

Model T Fords are to be identified by the motor engine number. The early Ford manuals suggest that when a new block or motor is place in a car whose motor needs to be replaced, the mechanic use stencils to place the old motor number on the new motor block....

So, should a 1927 roadster be reconstructed, whose title and older registration you have in hand, and the original motor be replaced, say with a 455 GM motor, would it be proper to stamp the original 1927 motor number on the replacement 455. Would the car be identified as a 1927 Ford Model T?

Asking for a friend.

Scanfordnumbers.jpg

Given the scenario you presented the answer it all depends on State laws not what Ford and other manufacturers did in 1927
For example some states would consider that a Custom vehicle or Hot Rod if your State does inspections and requires you to get it re-titled. They may also have a registration tax on horsepower.
-
To begin with what what the Ford manual said to do was no always followed by dealers or subsequent owners or mechanics. The MTFCA Encyclopedia
clearly states that "The engine number was also the serial number of the car. Engines were numbered when they were completed, and for the most part went into a chassis within a day or so. However, some engines were assembled and numbered at branch assembly plants. Highland Park would ship a block of engine-number records to an assembly plant and these engines might be made weeks or months afterwards. Consequently, engine numbers can only be used to date the "engine" NOT the car. https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/sernos.htm
--
Current Titles & registrations form have a VIN number field to uniquely Identify a specific vehicle globally
The VIN is a unique 17 position alphanumeric (letters & numbers) code for every on & off road vehicle. There are Global Standards to allow each manufacture to assign unique VIN numbers. When this occurred the filing system changed to just go by the number to get the details.
Unless you have a reference manual by manufacturer it is unlikely that you could decipher the VIN. The last six positions are used to uniquely id the similar combinations of values in the other portion of the VIN and is called a "production number". Not engine, body or frame number --
Back in the day each car manufacture assigned numbers to the vehicles to disguised each of their vehicles. When these cars were registered within a State it is likely they were filed by Manufacture and then by assigned number within that manufacturer. (There wasn't any national or global database to track stolen vehicles. The corresponding document then contained the detail about the vehicle and owner. So there wasn't and issue if a Ford & Dodge had the same assigned number because they were filed under the Manufactures name.
-
Today there is a conflict with some Model T owners who want to preserve the practice that Ford used back in the day and what their State & current system allows. Having said that. Understand that the purpose of a Title is to prove Ownership of a specific Vehicle not its pedigreed. There are many specific values on it that need to match.
-
Lastly, If you had a 2010 Buick and replaced the engine would you re-title it? No.

Stamping a 20 year old block with a 100 year old number in a specific effort to falsify a VIN is a felony.

Period.

Based on memory, you have a lot of friends who ask very strange questions

Good for you Norman

The Law is clear in Maryland that the motor has to be stock to register a vehicle as Historic.

The Model T chassis and body with a 200 hp engine would get a hot rod plate in Maryland.

I know what happened to a guy in Maine a few years ago that added a big hemi engine to an otherwise stock Model T body with a heavier frame, drive train, and mag wheels.

He was pulled over by a State Trooper.

The trooper took the plates right off his car.

A state flat bed truck came and took his car to an impound yard.

The trooper gave the guy a couple tickets and left him standing near the edge of the road in a wilderness area where his phone did not even work.

He was a long time getting home that day.

It cost him almost $1,000 to get his car back from the impound yard with the proper license plates.

My motto has always been, "learn the rules and play the game!"

it does not depend on State law as though some allow it and some don't. With respect to law, Restamping a big block GM engine or any engine, with another serial number (of any kind) is a Felony. In every state.

no question at all

for example: https://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislatio ... 20-109.pdf

Norman,
The reason Idaho has the same stupid laws as California is because so many people from California have moved to Idaho and still vote the
same way they did in California. Personally I don't believe people from blue states should be allowed to move to red states. They should
have to immigrate just like people from foreign countries do ( prove that they will not partake of services, will learn the language, take a
test to prove they understand the laws and the constitution.) they should not be able to own property for 5 years or vote for 10. I have
more than a few naturalized citizens that will back me up on this. ( that's where I got the idea )
Craig.

I registered mine back in October in PA and had to include a picture of the block serial #.

Is it possible for a T owner to update their title to show a different engine S/N if they need to replace the engine for some reason?

A 1927 frame should have the engine number stamped on the frame at the right front under the floorboards. If you are not using the stock frame (and I hope that you are not), Then you will likely have to use a VIN assigned by the state. Alternatively as was suggested earlier, you could make or buy a VIN plate and stamp it with the 1927 number. I knew a guy from Massachusetts who built a supposed 1923 T-bucket on a tube frame with a small-block Chevy engine. He had the 1923 title, and the only part in the car that was 1923 Ford was the steering wheel. The Commonwealth was OK with the plate on the firewall.

I bought another engine for my 1927 that I had for over 10 years before I found out about frame numbers.

The area was covered with a piece of tin to keep the exhaust from starting a wood fire on the floorboard again.

As it turned out, the car was registered by the engine number as the original had froze up and cracked open.

I took the car on a trailer, with the old engine in my tow vehicle and the new engine in the T, to the DMV and had it inspected by a State Trooper there.

I showed him all three numbers and he verified they were correct with a memo to the clerk inside that gave me a new title and registration number on them.

His final comment to me was, "now you can change engines all day, if you want to!

The corrected title was half price, the registration cost again and it was $10.00 to correct my original plate registration and $10 for another permanent plate registration.

That was over 20 years ago, the system still works, but the price is higher.

The too, about that same time, I was contacted by a police officer to come and show him where the serial number was located on a 1921 Model T that had been stolen and just been recovered.

I showed him the number and he asked me to read the numbers, then he told me that was a good number, as it matched the paperwork.

I asked him what would happen if the numbers didn't match the paperwork.

He said the car would be taken to the impound yard and sold for salvage.

I asked if anyone could bid on it and he said only those with a salvage license could bid on it.

Then he told me those sales are made once or twice a year and the money goes to a police society.

This is the way it works in Maryland, each state may be different.

Been Here Before wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:33 pm

Hypothetical.......
Model T Fords are to be identified by the motor engine number. The early Ford manuals suggest that when a new block or motor is place in a car whose motor needs to be replaced, the mechanic use stencils to place the old motor number on the new motor block....

So, should a 1927 roadster be reconstructed, whose title and older registration you have in hand, and the original motor be replaced, say with a 455 GM motor, would it be proper to stamp the original 1927 motor number on the replacement 455. Would the car be identified as a 1927 Ford Model T?

Lets stick to your original hypothetical question and what has been stated so far. Its important to understand what practices and rules were in effect and applied at a point in time and by whom.
-It is true that Model T Fords are to be identified by the motor engine number as they were manufactured by Ford back in the day so Ford could keep track of its vehicles. When it was time for the owner to register the vehicle most States required two documents, like today. The Title identified ownership of the vehicle and is issued at time of ownership. The Registration is used to identify that the License plate belongs to a specific vehicle and such fees for that year were paid so the car could be driven legally in the state and changes fro year to year. Like Today, the Title was kept in a save place while the Registration with the driver. So when the Police pulled a car over they ask for the divers license & car registration (not the Title). So the Title headings may differ over time than what on the Registration.
Here are some copies of NY registrations from 1920 to 1963. You can see that the initially just the motor/engine number was used, then both a serial number & engine and eventually a VIN number. All the time what ever number was used is now called a VIN NumberAll the time the Title remains unchanged. Now when you sell the car the Registration is somewhat meaningless and only the Title is referenced to prove ownership and that's where its necessary to have some proof of ownership - like John said put the identification number that's on the Title on the 1927 Frame location .

Note on the current NY Title for there is no place for engine number - just a VIN number. How you & your respective State interpret VIN number is another up to the State

Scott posted a link to some U.S. legislation that appears to cover at least part of what the first poster was asking.

Without wanting to get too far into this (and obviously I come from a different part of the world) I was interested enough to read the detail:

s20-109 appears to relate to specific vehicles, and within that:

(a)(3) implies that you can stamp a number upon a vehicle (and further, to its engine) if the number is 'one assigned thereto by the Division'

George didn't say he was altering/defacing any existing number on the hypothetical GM block, maybe it doesn't presently have a number. Additionally there is nothing within the quoted legislation to say you couldn't have more than one number, say on the engine block, as long as any number you stamp there is what 'the Division' have assigned.

I should imagine there is other legislation that covers intent to fraud etc, but technically it would seem not 'improper' to stamp as above; this is not the same as thinking it a good idea!

Luke.

The question “Are motor numbers necessary for registration”. We can assume “registration” means to “Title” since that “Registration” is a different document. Simple answer: Today some unique identifier on the vehicle needs to be referenced under the heading VIN. That indenture needs to be unique for all Titles in a world wide data base. If the title document has a specific box to enter a “motor number” then one is required. If the vehicle has a Title tag is identifier on the vehicle and don’t change the title.

Don’t confuse what was done 100yrs ago with what current. State Laws require

In New Zealand they take whatever number they can see as a base, engine or frame. Then assign a new 'VIN" using the international standards. That means a tag is riveted (screws not allowed) to the car. The good news is that there is latitude in placing the VIN so it can be on bodywork or frame and location is variable, so a less obvious location may be possible.

Interesting, even though local laws apply yet there seems to be some commonalty creeping in here.
I would be intrigued to hear what is done elsewhere in the world.

When I finished my T pickup, everything about it is Model T parts except for the rods supporting the running board brackets, they are simply round stock.I weren't paying that kind of money for iron rods
But since i made the mistake of being honest and telling the inspector I used a 26 rear axle and wheels for larger brakes and safety, he couldn't write it down as original 1923.
So it is titled as a specially constructed Replica 1923 Model T pickup.
I was not thrilled about it but hey, it's legal, the title is laying here on the table in front of me,it is insured and I can DRIVE the results of many years of hard work.

As for the engine numbers, frankly the inspector ignored them entirely. Only after I mentioned it several times did he photo them and wrote them down as secondary numbers.

My 1927 engine had froze and busted, but it came with the spare parts.

I had the car several years before I found the frame number and knew they had frame numbers.

I took the car and original engine down to the Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration and asked for a state inspection.

The state trooper gave me a slip of paper with the frame number on it.

His comment was, "there, now you can change engines every week if you wish!"

I went back inside with that paper and my title and got a new title and registration.

The corrected copies were half the cost of the original title and registration!

There is a possibility that one of those replaced engines were actually rebuilt and reused at a later date, so two vehicles could have the same VIN.

That’s good that you got it done with your T at the inspection station. Hopefully there are still folks there that’s easy to work with. He had enough common sense probably and had a knowledge of old cars. If you went to a courthouse nowdays they would scratch their heads and wouldn’t know what to do.

If you went to a courthouse nowdays they would scratch their heads and wouldn’t know what to do.

I had a car that had been titled and registered by the engine number, not the VIN, and the engine had since been swapped out. I was dreading the ordeal of getting a corrected pink slip. When I arrived at the San Pedro DMV office a young woman consulted a book, got the VIN from the data plate on the firewall, and had me out of there in a few minutes. I believe whether a visit to the DMV is easy or hard depends to a great extent on which person you happen to deal with.

My '27 Tudor was titled when I bought it. NJ title. VIN was 2 letters and 3 numbers. Obviously not the engine # Or any frame # I could find.