MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:31 pm**

Current status: Shifter broke where someone had previously welded the casting down where it attaches to the transmission. Easy enough fix, just need to order a new shifter.

In the meantime, the axle is in low and we've been graced with a few sunny days following more arctic-like weather. I'd like to drive the car and not be in low axle gear all the time.

Should I support the rear, get the wheels spinning (no, not with the motor running), and ease the Ruckstell back into high? I tried the lying on my back method and jiggling the shifter rod back and forth to no avail. All wheels on the ground.

I don't have a good understanding of what goes on back there with the Ruckstell. Might be some magic involved for all I know. Or maybe the spell wore off.
Thanks for any suggestions.

Gerrit

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:36 pm**

you can jack up one rear wheel and have someone turn it very slowly either at the wheel directly, or while in gear and someone slowly cranks the engine, all the while you put a short pipe wrench on the shifter (or short pipe over the shifter) and with modest pressure, it should snap into place when the gears line up internally in the differential.

It will "go" when things line up so don't go and bust something by horsing the differential shift lever with too much force

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:47 pm**

Thanks, very helpful. I'll give that a try. It is not necessary to have both rears off the ground?

Gerrit

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:54 pm**

it shouldn't be

I'd jack the driver's side, put it in gear and have someone turn the engine over

it should change gears pretty quickly

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:59 pm**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:54 pm
it shouldn't be

I'd jack the driver's side, put it in gear and have someone turn the engine over

it should change gears pretty quickly

Ok thanks. I'll check back with any progress.

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:04 pm**

meant to also say "or just turn the drivers wheel" while trying to shift

In any event, you are trying to get the gears to line up for the sliding clutch gear to engage across the assembly https://www.modeltford.com/item/P146.aspx

to do that either the differential must rotate slightly relative to the axle or the axle rotate slightly relative to the differential

you should have success in no time flat

Posted: **Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:36 pm**

Scott_Conger wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:04 pm
meant to also say "or just turn the drivers wheel" while trying to shift

In any event, you are trying to get the gears to line up for the sliding clutch gear to engage across the assembly https://www.modeltford.com/item/P146.aspx

to do that either the differential must rotate slightly relative to the axle or the axle rotate slightly relative to the differential

you should have success in no time flat

Understood, thanks. I have a little idea of what needs to happen and will try to gently ease the shifter back to what I call the “normal” position. I’ll have some time—and help—later in the week.

Posted: **Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:18 am**

Try simply rolling the car back and forth a bit........

Posted: **Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:44 am**

Without the shift lever in the car… hook a box end wrench over the shift lever on the rear axle and rock the car back and forth while putting some pressure on the shift lever. It should snap into gear without any problems

There is a “short” bronze shifter body and a “tall” cast iron shifter body, the tall shifters have a spring loaded mechanism that will not allow shifting until the gears are unloaded. The short shifter can be forced with less fiddling about

Posted: **Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:42 pm**

Thanks for the replies and suggestions. Still working on it. This Ruckstell has been hard to shift since I've owned the car and I suspect that's why the shifter mount at the transmission broke and was welded in the first place. Then broke again. I don't have any other Ruckstell to compare it to, however.

I'll check back with any progress or questions. Thanks again.

Gerrit

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:37 am**

Sounds like your shiftlock spring is too tight?
What shifter do you have? The late unit has a long casting. On the end is a slotted plug with a spring under. That plug can be backed out some to detention the spring or remove.
If its an earlier unit, you can remove it, disassemble & replace the spring.
If someone before you messed with it there could be several issues. Too long/tight spring?
The plunger may have been replaced & is binding. I have found the plunger repop is made larger than stock. If the hole has minimal wear it can lock up as it depresses into the casting.
A well versed rux builder should look @ it.

It may be operator error as implied.
All the stars & planets must align to get a shift change, but breaking off a shift lever is uncommon.
There is a learning curve to optimal rux operating.

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:16 pm**

Take the shifter housing off the rear end to learn how it works and while you are at it apply grease on all the moving parts so they work smoother. This area can dry out and become harder to shift.

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:44 pm**

Thanks, I will take a photo of the housing and also where the shifter broke at the casting. I agree this is probably an unusual problem and I have seen an experienced model T driver struggling to shift my rear axle. He was not, however, familiar with the Ruckstell.

I’ll check back, want to resolve this.

Gerrit

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:57 pm**

I agree with Michael. Once was a time I couldn’t shift my TT Ruckstell while moving or standing still. Someone gave me the advice Michael gave you. I removed the shifting mechanism from the left Ruckstell housing. It was dry inside. I slobbered much grease in it, reinstalled and the shifting ‘clicked’ real easy afterward.

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:27 pm**

Thanks everyone for your input. Here are a couple visuals. Are there any unusual precautions I should take when removing the shift housing to look inside and clean? Springy things ready to fly out? Still in my first year of Model T ownership so I’m treading very softly here, don’t want to damage anything else.

I circled where the shifter was welded or more likely brazed. I know most of you have a more discerning eye than the general population, just wanted to enhance the visual aide and besides I like playing with my phone’s photo editing feature.

Gerrit

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:38 pm**

The shiftlock unbolts as a unit. Nothing to fly off & get lost.
When you have it off you can manipulate it in a vise to check its function. Also move the internal locking sleeve with a screwdriver. It should engage/disengage easily with the correct lineup.
You might send a picture of the plunger & locking teeth area so we can access condition.

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:54 pm**

The whole unit comes out in one piece. The reason for inspection and greasing is that this unit receives no lubrication from the differential. Every one I have ever taken apart was dry….

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:53 pm**

I’ll have time Thursday to dig deeper, looking forward to seeing how the shift mechanism works. I’ll provide visuals on what I find.

As always, thanks for the help.

Gerrit

Posted: **Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:37 am**

I would look for another part. Yours is pretty bad. It is a late one too, made by Eaton.

Posted: **Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:03 pm**

First step would be to remove the shift lock from the axle. Dig into that as it is probably where the issue lies......
If the lever does not flip over then it must be jammed, possibly a broken spring.

Buy the MTFCA service manual on the Ruckstell (available on line from the Museum shop). Is a very good guide to tearing down and reassembling. A great investment IMHO.

Study Martynn's great drawings too, they help show what goes where: https://mtfca.com/phpBB3/app.php/gallery/album/249

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:23 pm**

Not much of an update, just looking for a window where I can devote some time to the car. Tomorrow looks good. Possibly as early as this evening. I read among the comments that the Ruckstell shares no oil with the differential. Does this mean I should not expect any oil to drain out when I remove the shift lock unit?

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:51 pm**

It’s all the same oil in there… the shift lock is high enough that little or no oil will leak out when removed

Posted: **Sat Feb 11, 2023 3:52 pm**

not likely going to be much if any, as it's way above the lubricant level

these benefit greatly from a good gob of grease and some exercising before reinstallation

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:28 pm**

Brief update with visuals. The shift lock assy came off easily. The shift rod and fork appear to move as one with no slop or play.

I’m also able to slide what I call the shift collar or bushing back and forth on the axle. Still not going into direct drive, though.

Feel free to ask anything that might put more light on this situation and thank you everyone for

the advice. Go Chiefs.

Gerrit

It looks like I’ve uploaded duplicates of the same photo. Not my intention, but I don’t know how to undo it so I’ll leave as is.

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:50 pm**

take a look at this video toward the end https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0blycihFifg

you'll see the "3/4 inch" movement you're mentioning and then with a slight manipulation to get things lined up perfectly, it throws fully into direct drive

are you moving either the differential or wheel some when trying to get the sliding gear to move?

It's time to try to find someone locally/nearby with experience, or you're going to end up tearing this thing down and I'm not yet convinced that this would be completely necessary (unless simply to learn how it all works, but that's a labor-intensive way to learn just for the sake of learning)

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:51 pm**

Slider movement looks ok. The shift collar teeth should be clear of the lock plate. The axle should be rotatable.
Check the plunger in the shift lock. It will be stiff, but movable. The shiftlock has been rebuilt or is new.
If the plunger body casting is original, you may have an oversized plunger locking up in its hole as I alluded to previously.
See if you can get that plunger to retract & return. Since you are able to easily move the slide collar, you issue is with the plunger and or spring.

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 8:58 pm**

The video doesnt show the lock plate engagement. It sits on top the bearing.
As shown the collar down still rotates because or the missing lock plate.
When it appears locked, the collar is up to high & into the brass bearing plate clearance teeth.
Misleading of the actual function positions.

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:00 pm**

Thanks John. I guess I didn't view it with a critical enough eye to realize that.

these are not my forte and I have apparently just confirmed that to the world

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:28 pm**

Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I’ll have more time tomorrow to investigate further.

Quick question: should I be looking for the mechanism to be moving outward towards the road wheel to disengage the Ruckstell? To reiterate, it’s now stuck in Ruckstell. At the moment I’d be happy with direct drive since I rarely used the gear reduction. The video was helpful, gave me a better understanding of how it works.

Gerrit

Posted: **Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:53 pm**

5 WoodenWheels wrote: ↑
Sun Feb 12, 2023 9:28 pm
Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I’ll have more time tomorrow to investigate further.

Quick question: should I be looking for the mechanism to be moving outward towards the road wheel to disengage the Ruckstell?

Guess I should have been more clear: the Ruckstell disengages towards the left rear (driver side) wheel?
Sometimes I write something then realize I’m the only one who could possibly understand what I was talking about

Gerrit

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:00 pm**

The sliding clutch gear (the thing you are looking at in the hole) slides towards the passenger side to engage the underdrive, to drivers side to disengage.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:06 pm**

There is also an in between spot, just as the sliding collar disengages the lock plate. Thats a neutral spot.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:13 pm**

The sliding clutch gear (the thing you are looking at in the hole) slides towards the passenger side to engage the underdrive, to drivers side to disengage.

Or the other way around for RIGHT Hand Drive cars

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:55 pm**

A Whiteman wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:13 pm

The sliding clutch gear (the thing you are looking at in the hole) slides towards the passenger side to engage the underdrive, to drivers side to disengage.
Or the other way around for RIGHT Hand Drive cars

You are right of course.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:34 pm**

Mark Gregush wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:55 pm

A Whiteman wrote: ↑
Mon Feb 13, 2023 2:13 pm

The sliding clutch gear (the thing you are looking at in the hole) slides towards the passenger side to engage the underdrive, to drivers side to disengage.
Or the other way around for RIGHT Hand Drive cars
You are right of course.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 3:50 pm**

Thanks for the replies. Now that I’m on a more intimate basis with the Ruckstell, is there a way for me to manually get it out of underdrive? You know, in case I’m itching for a wild night on the town and want to go faster than 15 mph?

For those reading this far, you get another photo. I see there are two detents in what I’m calling the shift fork. Is it possible the wrong one is engaged? Does it matter? It looks like I may have to take apart that assembly but I’ll accept any reason you may give NOT to do that.

Gerrit

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:23 pm**

at great risk of looking silly twice in a single thread, I'll say that there is no right or wrong detent position. Those detents are what keep the sliding gear slid over one way or another; in planetary mode or direct mode.

As clean and dry as things look, is it simply possible that the detent is partly seized in it's hole and making the shift extraordinarily difficult?

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:52 pm**

Those detents are stout! You will need to clamp the shift fork or housing in a vice, and use a crescent wrench for leverage to toggle the throwout collar. If you can not get the collar to toggle over, ensure that the plunger is free by using a screwdriver to pry the plunger back

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:27 pm**

Using the hole in the plunger, try to pry it down into the hole.
The spring is stiff, but the plunger must retract to move to the next detent.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:44 pm**

Looks like I may have dragged a red herring through the discussion by mentioning “detents.”

Goal is still to disengage the Ruckstell. I welcome any thoughts on how to accomplish that. I’ll study the problem on my own as well.

BTW yes I cleaned the assy up to get a better look at parts I’m totally unfamiliar with but am getting to know better. That’s why it all looks so clean. I’ll reassemble with a good coating of grease.

Not loving the Ruckstell.

Gerrit

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:05 pm**

That C shaped thing in the shift lock has 3 sharp teeth. The detents are the 2 valleys between the sharp teeth. It would be possible to put in a vise & shift to the other detent spot. However that doesnt solve the problem. You want to be able to use rux as needed.

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:09 pm**

You stated in an earlier post that your sliding gear moves approximately 3/4”. This sliding gear has 2 gear sections on the same shaft. The gear section you can see thru the shifter hole simply engages and disengages into a locking plate anchored into the housing by 2 conical tipped bolts and jam nuts. The inboard gear section rides inside the sun gear and bronze thrust plate. When the sliding gear is pushed inward toward the center section, the sliding gear connects the sun gear to the locking plate engaging the Ruxtell gear reduction. As you slide the sliding gear outward toward the wheel, the sliding gear will disengage from the locking plate, and the inner gear section will engage into both the sun gear and the bronze thrust plate, now in direct. If the sliding gear is over traveled toward the wheel, you will find that the inner gear segment will disengage from the sun gear leaving the rear axle in neutral. The shift tower holds the sliding gear in the proper location for each gear. Pretty sure the sliding gear only travels about 1/2” when shifting…

Posted: **Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:23 pm**

Thanks for the additional info. I’ll study the exploded diagrams and the parts I see in front of me and make some sense of all that. I’ll check back with any progress.

Gerrit

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:35 am**

We used to soak them in vinegar and put them in the woodshed.

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2023 11:21 am**

You said :"Ease the Ruckstell back into high" you don't EASE a Ruckstell. Make your shifts FIRM and quick. I own two T's and both have Ruckstells. bobt

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2023 12:18 pm**

Gerrit you have the 2nd iteration of the shift lock I believe. They are really simple to disassemble. Just a possibility that I experienced with the same type shift lock. The tooth that is spring loaded that goes into the “detent” may have a jagged edge that is catching & keeping you from shifting . I found that to be one of my issues among many, so I took that tooth and dressed it with a file. It worked to a point but on disassembly I noticed that the “detents” on the yoke had wear ridges that were so deep it changed the angle for the tooth to slide over and were a major part of the problem. I choose to replace both pieces later for fear of getting locked into neutral but used the T for a few months with little issue. In addition the late Stan Howe, RIP, was an advocate of tapping a hole in the shift lock assembly for a zerk to keep it lubricated. Picture & examples from various posters. Just a few thoughts & I’m probably wrong, your mileage may vary.

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:39 pm**

Do you have this book? If not get it.
https://www.modeltford.com/item/RX3.aspx

Posted: **Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:46 pm**

Thread about shifters.
https://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/8 ... 1249688994

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