Tinting Linseed Oil

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Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Tbird » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:34 pm

Any thoughts, suggestions in how to tint raw linseed oil black for painting duck canvas?
What has worked well for you?
Thanks
Mike


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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:43 pm

?!? What are you working on ?
"Tinting" is not really advisable, but you can make a serviceable paint with boiled linseed oil and carbon black (soot). Mix in enough black pigment so that the pigment load will reflect UV, too little, and the coating will fail sooner than you'd like to see.

Painting this over canvas, you will need to "size" the canvas with a glue solution so that it will not absorb the oil. Otherwise, the linseed oil will cause the canvas to rot in a relatively short time. Good luck !!

PS - raw linseed oil will be VERY slow drying unless your paint is amended with drying agents such as cobalt dryers. Recommend boiled oil !!
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Tbird » Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:09 pm

Rich,
I'm trying to figure out best technique for the Duck Canvas for the roof of my delivery car. I researched what was done on train cars with the duck canvas. I read that originally canvas roofs were painted with 2-3 coats of raw linseed oil tinted with pigment (usually black). This information was coming from a man who restored some train cars. I also read to use a canvas preservative paint first because linseed oil rots canvas?

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:27 pm

Did some internet searching.
https://fredrixartistcanvas.com/archives/1376
When primed, pure cotton duck canvas is ideal for oil and acrylic paints. However, primed canvas can be expensive. Fortunately, cotton duck canvas is available for purchase either primed or unprimed. Besides price, some artists prefer to purchase raw (unprimed) cotton duck canvas for ultimate control over stretching and priming. Others prefer it simply for convenience, as raw canvas rolls are super portable and lightweight.

This company sells black primed duck canvas https://www.chicagocanvas.com/product/b ... nvas-8-oz/
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:41 pm

Mike, what was done for train cars may have no bearing on a suitable top for your delivery car. If it were me, I would invest in yardage of the top materials used in restoration that will give decades of service. Otherwise, I think Frank posted a very economical alternative, i.e. the black primed artist canvas. However, since it is not intended for exterior applications, may not be weatherproof, or robust enough for service on a vehicle for an extended period of time. Good luck, and have fun, whatever you decide to do !
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Feb 07, 2023 1:55 pm

this just cries out for: NO!!!

you're doing far too good of a job on this body to have the roof structure deteriorate from unseen elements trapped within the covering

linseed oil is the perfect food for mildew fungi...it is NOT something you want on anything which will get wet and be slow to dry in any sort of humidity.
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Rich P. Bingham » Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:44 pm

Scott, amen !!
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Tbird » Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:37 pm

So does anyone know how tops were done if linseed oil is a big no no?
I’m definitely using a duck canvas that will be stretched over cotton batting and over the roof slats. I’m planning on using a 8lb duck canvas.

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Humblej » Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:15 pm

Methods and materials by Ford in 1912 would not include duck canvas for top material. A reasonable educated guess would be to use Ford turf vinyl top material, same as used for an open car top. That's my opinion anyway.

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Tbird » Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:29 pm

Humblej wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:15 pm
Methods and materials by Ford in 1912 would not include duck canvas for top material. A reasonable educated guess would be to use Ford turf vinyl top material, same as used for an open car top. That's my opinion anyway.
Hi Jeff,
So the bodies for the Delivery car were built by Beaudette. The roofs are constructed of steam bent hard maple slats 5/16 thick that are nailed on to the top bow pieces. Then they are covered with a cotton batting and then a duck canvas that was waterproofed by staining/painting. I have seen these materials on two original bodies.


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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Allan » Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:23 pm

Mike, I have always used sandy beige colour canvas for tops and side curtains on my cars. It comes, off the roll, at 8" wide. Today it has a small percentage of polyester in the weave to reduce shrimkage, but that is not a concern when fixing it down on a top like your delivery car. It does NOT have the grid pattern of stronger fibres to act as a rip stop like many modern materials do.. Over polyester webbing and cedar laths it gives excellent service, even allowing for bird dropping removal. I can wash it, brush it, sponge it and just let it dry. The weave is not quite as fine as I imagine your duck is, but it doesn't need to be to be impervious to water.
The good news is it is available in black! I rang my supplier. They have 40 metres in stock. It is AU$45 per metre. I can send you some if you are interested, or perhaps it is available over there. Maybe I can post a sample.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Tbird » Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:16 pm

Allan wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:23 pm
Mike, I have always used sandy beige colour canvas for tops and side curtains on my cars. It comes, off the roll, at 8" wide. Today it has a small percentage of polyester in the weave to reduce shrimkage, but that is not a concern when fixing it down on a top like your delivery car. It does NOT have the grid pattern of stronger fibres to act as a rip stop like many modern materials do.. Over polyester webbing and cedar laths it gives excellent service, even allowing for bird dropping removal. I can wash it, brush it, sponge it and just let it dry. The weave is not quite as fine as I imagine your duck is, but it doesn't need to be to be impervious to water.
The good news is it is available in black! I rang my supplier. They have 40 metres in stock. It is AU$45 per metre. I can send you some if you are interested, or perhaps it is available over there. Maybe I can post a sample.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
So I didn’t know black duck canvas was available! I did a Google search and found a supplier that carries 8# in black 60” wide and $14.85 per yard. I like the idea of using already colored canvas. I’m thinking this will yield a better result. Question though do you think it would still be a good idea to waterproof it like you would any canvas? Not that I plan on driving in the rain but…. You know


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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Allan » Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:39 am

Mike, I would not bother with waterproofing. especially on a dark colour. Canvas is made to be watertight. It can get wet to the touch but it will dry out again.. I have two fixed tops, one on my chocolate van and one on my 1917 shooting brake. The canvas is over 1/4" thick polyester batting, which is unaffected by moisture. The batting is over cedar laths which also are unaffected by water. I did get the underlying burlap wet at the front when heavy rain blew in off the top of the windscreen, but it just dried out too. The key is allowing it to dry completely. Cotton batting is likely to hold moisture, prolonging the drying time.
The van has been on the road since 1994. My cousin says he was almost drowned in it during a rainstorm on a National tour. I have been soaked also on some promotional work days. It has stood up very well over 28 years and I expect it to continue doing so.

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Kaiser » Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:12 am

Another way to ensure a watertight finish of the canvas duck material is to use the 'Dope' used to finish fabric airplane surfaces, it has the added bonus that it shrinks the material somewhat, thus tightening it and ensuring a lasting wrinkle free top.
Airplane 'Dope' is a mostly nitrocellulose based laquer.
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Loftfield » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:02 am

If the top is stationary (not folding or flapping, i.e. laid down on wood) the traditional technique used on canvas covers over cabins and the like on boats was to pull the canvas a tight as possible, tack down, then wet the canvas with water, then apply oil-based paint of the desired color. As the water dries, it shrinks the canvas pulling it TIGHT and making it completely waterproof as the paint dries. Seems weird but I have done this several tines with an antique schooner that was in my care for many years. It works.


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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Allan » Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:19 pm

Thomas is correct. Getting the canvas wet will shrink it and pull it tight. There is no need to apply anything else to achieve this. There is no need to apply a sealant/waterproof coating in this application, but your own preference to do so is just that. You could always do this down the track if you are not satisfied with the way the untreated top performs in service.
Many of the touring cars in Australia had canvas tops, including Fords. They performed well over many years. Folding them would be problematical if they were painted. Being fixed, you van top could be treated in this way, but it is not necessary.
Re longevity, when I bought my 1922 tourer in 1966, it still had the original canvas top. The rear curtain had been replaced when the lady owners had backed it into a tree branch. That top stayed on the car for another two owners untill a third fitted a new black vinyl top.

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Tbird » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:51 pm

Allan wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:19 pm
Thomas is correct. Getting the canvas wet will shrink it and pull it tight. There is no need to apply anything else to achieve this. There is no need to apply a sealant/waterproof coating in this application, but your own preference to do so is just that. You could always do this down the track if you are not satisfied with the way the untreated top performs in service.
Many of the touring cars in Australia had canvas tops, including Fords. They performed well over many years. Folding them would be problematical if they were painted. Being fixed, you van top could be treated in this way, but it is not necessary.
Re longevity, when I bought my 1922 tourer in 1966, it still had the original canvas top. The rear curtain had been replaced when the lady owners had backed it into a tree branch. That top stayed on the car for another two owners untill a third fitted a new black vinyl top.

Allan from down under.
I did read from the 2 other guys that did Delivery cars (John Regan and Bill Brommer) to pre shrink the duck canvas before installation by washing it.


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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:22 pm

Yes, canvas has SOME waterproof qualities, and perhaps it's great for open car tops which can completely dry out, but honestly, a car with a canvas top over cotton batting, in Indiana and no waterproofing, is going to mildew and eventually damage the wood structure. It is going to start with the first thorough rain-soaking and continue until it becomes obvious. And, by the time it is obvious, you're going to want to kick yourself for not stopping it before it started.

I'm going to go out on a limb (and would never do this without experimenting), but canvas and other natural fabrics have been made waterproof for over 100 years by using wax. Formulas and methods are easy to find on the web so I will not pretend to be an expert on it and offer anything other than this as a suggestion.

Considering the care you're taking in the construction and the obvious intent to make the roof authentic to the period, I think you owe yourself the time to research this method. It works, and would be historically correct for your top material and is a popular choice for maintaining water-repellency of materials even to this day. With that combination of qualities, I don't see how you could miss.
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:35 pm

Late model Jeep Wrangler ragtops use a black or tan fabric material. It does not have the "vinyl top" look. It is claimed that it can be used through Canadian winters. The tops are made by Best Top. I don't know where they get the material or if they would supply the material to an individual buyer. The material will get wet on the outside but it will not allow water into the interior.


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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Erik Johnson » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:50 pm

You might consider using Stayfast canvas convertible top material on the roof of your delivery car:

https://www.haartz.com/products/stayfast

https://www.google.com/search?q=stayfas ... XUy7KP44AM

https://www.modeltupholstery.com/index. ... yard-goods

It's similar to the canvas convertible top material my father installed on his 1917 touring back in 1951 (because leatherette convertible top material wasn't available).

The only difference was back then the material was cotton on both sides of the rubber layer whereas today, the top side is acrylic so it is resistant to fading.

Here is the over 70 year old top so it has faded. (Years ago, my dad would also treat it with TopTite black top dressing to darken it up but that product was manufactured in the 1920s - he probably purchased it from Fenstermacher Auto Supply in Minneapolis which had a lot of NOS items in its inventory in the 1940s and 50s.)
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by A Whiteman » Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:06 am

Well,,,,, I used a water based bitumen sealant (like the one used to seal ponds) over washed dried canvas on the roof of my TT.

Repels water well. Nearly gassed me in the garage when putting it on :-(

Does not last forever and has re-coat about 12 years.

Works for me, so I guess it worked!

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:11 am

When I did my top on my Huckster, I used the lightweight canvas then coated it with a rubberized coating, sorta like Flex Seal. While the color faded somewhat quick, but not too bad, it seemed to hold up fine for a good number of years. Not 100% waterproof after a few years and required service every few, I think the end result was more in line with what might have been done back then when you could buy rubber based top coating in a can and was painted on.
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Allan » Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:59 pm

Polyester wadding like the quilters use has wothwhile advantages over traditional cotton batting. It does not hold moisture and so dries out much quicker. Being synthetic, it does not rot. It does not pull apart, so tugging on it to stretch it flat has no ill effect. You can buy thicker stuff than 1/4", but that gives an overstuffed appearance to a top.

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Will_Vanderburg » Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:05 pm

I size my canvas for waterproofing by using wallpaper sizing paste. I then mix semi-gloss paint and boiled Lind seed oil together with a tiny bit of Japan dryer

Paint it on with either a brush or roller. Let it dry. Look through the unpainted side towards a direct light source. If you see light, paint it again. Continue until it’s completely non-see through
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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Allan » Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:39 am

When I had the canvas top done for my tourer, the motor trimmer suggested I remove the size on the new fabric by giving it a good detergent wash and rinse. The idea was to allow pre shrinkage of the material, so that it would not shrink much when fitted. IIt was a difficult job to manage and to hang to get dry, but the top has certainly maintained its good shape and the side curtains are the easiest to fit of any I have used.

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by George Mills » Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:22 am

I hesitated piping in as it sounded that the subject was well covered...figuratively and literally.

Confirming what Allan suggested above...since you are looking at an era appropriate solution and seem pretty convinced you want old school...

With COTTON Duck, pure cotton Duck, and not polyester thread...take a look at the weave---the weft and the warp directions and see what you bought. Once you soak it and you do soak it, when it dries it will shrink on the order of 5% in one direction, 10% in the other direction depending how woven. That's good...because you don't want to put it on stock out of the bag and then have it get wet...will pull the tacks out or tear away at those type of shrinkage numbers.

Finish the top as you will...were I to be in the same situation and idea...my choice would be to buy the pre-black cotton cloth...do the detergent soak...followed by a plain water soak...let it dry thoroughly...then plain wax both sides before mounting/pulling/tacking...then top wax it a few coats with plain regular wax again then with a final rub out of black top dressing. Stored inside? That finish will last forever...and you can always polish it up from time to time.

My other recommendation.....only seat the tacks halfway until like Goldilocks the top is 'just right' and only then drive the tacks home---makes it a whole lot easier to just 'tug with a nudge' correct on something after the top sits for a day or two before taking the tacks 'home'.

Good luck.

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Tbird » Mon Feb 13, 2023 11:41 am

George Mills wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 9:22 am
I hesitated piping in as it sounded that the subject was well covered...figuratively and literally.

Confirming what Allan suggested above...since you are looking at an era appropriate solution and seem pretty convinced you want old school...

With COTTON Duck, pure cotton Duck, and not polyester thread...take a look at the weave---the weft and the warp directions and see what you bought. Once you soak it and you do soak it, when it dries it will shrink on the order of 5% in one direction, 10% in the other direction depending how woven. That's good...because you don't want to put it on stock out of the bag and then have it get wet...will pull the tacks out or tear away at those type of shrinkage numbers.

Finish the top as you will...were I to be in the same situation and idea...my choice would be to buy the pre-black cotton cloth...do the detergent soak...followed by a plain water soak...let it dry thoroughly...then plain wax both sides before mounting/pulling/tacking...then top wax it a few coats with plain regular wax again then with a final rub out of black top dressing. Stored inside? That finish will last forever...and you can always polish it up from time to time.

My other recommendation.....only seat the tacks halfway until like Goldilocks the top is 'just right' and only then drive the tacks home---makes it a whole lot easier to just 'tug with a nudge' correct on something after the top sits for a day or two before taking the tacks 'home'.

Good luck.
This is all good information guys… George you mentioned black top dressing… can you elaborate on that a little more and just for some more direction/details the duck material will be pulled down the sides and top and back then there is a shoe moulding/ drip rail that covers the edges of the material. Whatever fasteners I use they will have to be flush so the drip rail can mount flush to the roof rails. The side roof rails are 3/4” hard maple.

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Post by FreighTer Jim » Mon Feb 13, 2023 1:39 pm

Dean Yoder would be the one to consult.
He has practical experience which includes
sewing canvas on a commercial sewing
machine he keeps at his place.

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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by George Mills » Mon Feb 13, 2023 6:21 pm

Mike,

There is a specific dressing for canvas for original pre-vinyl convertibles but a quick look online says it may have taken dump in the world of EPA as I can't find it.

I would then suggest that you look into OTTER Wax system of waxing/waterproofing, it comes in colors...and further ANY beeswax/carnuba hybrid in black for furniture would work as a top coat on a car. Wood fiber and cotton fibre...it won't care, it's organic.


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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by jiminbartow » Mon Feb 13, 2023 8:14 pm

I’m not suggesting you do this, but circus tents used to be waterproofed by dissolving paraffin wax into gasoline and brushing it onto the canvas. The gasoline would evaporate, leaving a layer of wax. Jim Patrick


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Re: Tinting Linseed Oil

Post by Dan McEachern » Fri Apr 21, 2023 11:48 am

Hi Mike- If you would like to contact me, I can contact Bill Bromer's wife and ask her what Bill used on the Pie Wagon Bodies he built- just send me a PM thru the forum and I'll get back to you ASAP.

Dan

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