Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

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Paperman
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Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Paperman » Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:43 pm

Im new to T’s, working on my 27’ to get it in running order. Seems the thrust load on the crankshaft and the brass bearing in the transmission would be hard on them if kept in neutral for extended times. Any thoughts?

Im just thinking I’m sure to have allot of idle time playing with the car initially.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:59 pm

I don't like to idle in neutral for very long. it should be idled long enough to get the oil circulating into the front of the engine, and when testing for fuel mixture or whether it is running on all cylinders. Sometimes it is necessary in heavy traffic or in a parade or at a signal. It is also good to pull the parking brake into the neutral position while idling in heavy traffic or parades. Or even at long signals. This is because it is not always easy to hold the left foot in exactly the right position and if too far in it drags the low band or too far out drags the clutch. It will eventually wear the thrust on the bearing, however low will wear more on it than idle.
Norm


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Les Schubert » Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:49 pm

Some options to consider;
1. If you have an auxiliary transmission like a Warford, put it in neutral and leave it in high.
2. Put the rear axle on some Good jack stands again leave it in high.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by MichaelPawelek » Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:00 pm

When idling for a long time be sure you have the spark lever advanced a bit or the engine may over heat. I found this out years ago in a very slow parade on a hot day.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by JohnM » Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:04 pm

In theory yes, all bushings in the transmission are in play when you are in anything but high or direct drive. I would not be overly concerned. When the time comes for the engine to be torn down, it will most likely be for other reasons than transmission bushings.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by jiminbartow » Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:25 pm

Idling for long periods of time could be an issue whereby overheating could be a problem if you have an inefficient clogged up radiator. Even with a new radiator, overheating can become an issue. I have a new efficient radiator from Brassworks on my 1926 coupe and it will overheat and boil over on a hot day if I let it idle for too long, therefore, if I am idling it while working on it, I set up a big powerful hurricane fan in front of my radiator and turn it on full blast recreating the scenario of driving 30 mph, then there is no danger of overheating.

One essential accessory that every Model T’r should install on their T’s that will protect your T from damage from overheating is an exterior oiler that efficiently moves oil from the back of the engine to the front bearings and bushings. While a Model T comes from the factory with an interior oiler, it is not very efficient, especially if the tube gets clogged up with lint or residue. There is an exterior oiler called a “magneto post oiler”, in which a brass fitting is mounted to a threaded hole on the side of the mag post. The oil is suppose to go up into the mag post fitting, into a tube and to the front of the engine but the opening is so small, it is also inefficient. To me, the best exterior oiler is a “super duty outside oiler” that mounts on the top left side of the hogshead at about the 10:00 position in line with the ring gear and is connected to a tube that runs down beside the left side of the engine and connects to a fitting that enters the crankcase between number 1 and number 2 cylinders, that forces great amounts of oil into the scoop and flows through the tube to the front of the engine. In the photo you can see the entry point of the copper tubing into the crankcase below the horn. Jim Patrick

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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:38 am

I have read that the mag post oiler doesn't deliver much oil, and I have read that it works fine. Has anybody here ever disconnected the front end of the tube and run the engine to actually see how much oil it moves?
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:52 am

I have one which lost the funnel from the inside oil line the first time I started the engine. I didn't know what had happened but the mag suddenly quit. It would still run on battery which I did for about 10 years. It had the mag oil line and just the inside line without the funnel. it ran just fine only was slower than most on tours. Then I rewound a few mag rings and decided to replace that one. That is when I found the funnel at the bottom of the crankcase. So If you are sure oil is flowing through the mag oil pipe, it should be sufficient to oil your engine.
Norm

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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Craig Leach » Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:27 am

Hi Robert,
I do a lot of idling in parades & I have not noticed any undo wear as of yet. I do use the hand brake lever to make sure I'm not dragging the
low peddle. As far as oil supplied with a Aux. oiler I had a line break an dumped almost all the oil out of the engine in just a few miles. I set
my spare engine up with a 3/8" clear plastic line so I could see how much oil was delivered to the front of the engine. What I discovered
is there is not a lot of oil delivered to the front of the engine at an idle when the oil is cold. As the oil warms up it flows much better. The
faster the engine is running the more oil will flow. A little oil will flow if the level is at the lower pet cock. Much more at the upper petcock.
If the RPM was raised then the oil would flow much better. Adding a extra quart will vastly improve the oil flow to the front of the engine.
(Not a recommendation just a observation.)
Craig.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Russ T Fender » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:09 am

On my '10 running the oil line down the side of the block with the steering column was problematic so I ran it down the carburetor side to the oil filler on the timing cover. Using an off the shelf toilet bowl part I extended the filler neck and tapped into it. I can take the cap off and easily see a very robust flow of oil getting up to the front. I also found that the oil flow starts almost immediately when the car is started. Those magnets certainly do their job slinging oil!

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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by paulmikeska » Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:22 am

I installed a sight glass in the oil line from the mag fitting on my 26 Coupe. You would be surprised by how much oil flows through that goofy right angle fitting.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by jiminbartow » Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:31 am

Thank you for the correction, Russ/Val. I said to line up the scoop with the ring gear, when I should have said to line it up with the magnets which are the best at slinging the oil into the scoop. Jim Patrick


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:43 am

Idling a Model T requires "riding the clutch", since there is no true neutral. The throwout collar is a simple brass bearing, and it does not appear to be designed for extended use. The throwout collar is engaged any time the hand lever isn't all the way forward, and any time the clutch pedal is not all the way back.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:45 am

Use of a 5W30 or 10W30 synthetic oil will will promote quick oil circulation and full lubrication of all parts.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Adam » Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:03 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:38 am
I have read that the mag post oiler doesn't deliver much oil, and I have read that it works fine. Has anybody here ever disconnected the front end of the tube and run the engine to actually see how much oil it moves?

Where you have read that the FORD oiling system works just fine is absolutely correct information. FORD didn’t design & manufacture OVER FIFTEEN MILLION Model T’s for NINETEEN YEARS with a defective oiling system.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an i

Post by jiminbartow » Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:27 am

Adam,

With all due respect, Mr. Jelf was not talking about the Ford factory installed interior oiler that all Model T’s had, but was referring to the Mag Post exterior oiler, which was an after market accessory. There have been many instances of the Ford interior oiler tube becoming clogged up and failing which probably did not happen during the average life of the car, but happened way after the average life of the car with old thick oil, dirt, lint and rust being forced into, or hardening in the tube and clogging it up. While it was not a common problem for Model T’s in the day, it has become a problem for many Model T owners today 100 plus years later, that may have neglected to snake out the interior oiler tube during engine overhaul. Judging by the shallow downward angle of the oiler tube in the below diagram, it would not take much of an incline to level the tube so that the oil might slow or stop flowing. Jim Patrick

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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:44 am

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:43 am
Idling a Model T requires "riding the clutch", since there is no true neutral. The throwout collar is a simple brass bearing, and it does not appear to be designed for extended use. The throwout collar is engaged any time the hand lever isn't all the way forward, and any time the clutch pedal is not all the way back.
When the engine is idling, (and we assume the car is standing still), all the throwout collar does, is hold back the clutch spring. It is not working against a rotating component at that time, so yes it can be depended upon for "extended use". In fact, it is experiencing no more wear than it would be when the car is parked in your garage with the parking brake set.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:50 am

Part of the problem with the clogged inside oil tube is what my uncle used to say, which turned out to be not true. He said his car burned and lost so much oil, that he never changed it because it changed itself. He just added oil. Well I happened to be the next owner of the car. It was a 35 V8. It had a couple of sticking valves when I got it and I took off the intake manifold which was also the valve cover. It was packed completely with sludge. So I pulled the engine and cleaned everything up and overhauled the engine. Everything was full of sludge. In those days he used non detergent 40w oil. Sometimes even used old oil from the gas station which had been drained from other cars which got oil changes.
Anyway, with a Model T which uses the same oil in the engine and transmission, there is iron filings from wear, and band lint in the oil. No filter so it just keeps circulating in the oil. It should be changed often. Even though I probably put on less than a thousand miles a year on my Model T's I try to change the oil at least once a year and if I happen to be going on a long tour with the club I change it before I leave home.
Norm


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by jiminbartow » Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:57 am

PS. Several years ago, when I had installed a Mag Post outside oiler. After I installed it, I found that my T would not start. After some trouble shooting, I checked the mag post and discovered that the brass fitting was touching the mag post contact. I removed the brass fitting and installed two washers on the outside of the mag post so that, when tightened, the end of the fitting would be farther away from the mag post contact inside. It corrected the grounding problem and also opened up the opening so that more oil could enter the opening. You can see how small the opening would be without doing this. Anyone with a mag post oiler might want to consider doing this to provide a larger orifice for the oil to enter and make their oiler more efficient, but even then, the opening is still very small. Jim Patrick

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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:03 pm

So, only the crankshaft thrust bearing would see increased wear with the car standing still and idling in neutral.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by speedytinc » Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:22 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:03 pm
So, only the crankshaft thrust bearing would see increased wear with the car standing still and idling in neutral.
The thrust bearing surface is not seeing any pressure from the clutch spring. There is near neutral pressure.
The only force to the thrust is that created by the magnets pulling the flywheel into the field coil.
So idling in neutral is way easier on the thrust surfaces without the added clutch pressure.

T motors use a splash oiling system. There is plenty of oil being moved around internally as designed.

The only issue I am aware of is transmission bushings tightening/seizing if run in neutral after a recent rebuild with to tight in the clearances.
But seizing was inevitable anyway.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Paperman » Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:34 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:44 am
TXGOAT2 wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 10:43 am
Idling a Model T requires "riding the clutch", since there is no true neutral. The throwout collar is a simple brass bearing, and it does not appear to be designed for extended use. The throwout collar is engaged any time the hand lever isn't all the way forward, and any time the clutch pedal is not all the way back.
When the engine is idling, (and we assume the car is standing still), all the throwout collar does, is hold back the clutch spring. It is not working against a rotating component at that time, so yes it can be depended upon for "extended use". In fact, it is experiencing no more wear than it would be when the car is parked in your garage with the parking brake set.
The light came on after reading this, thank you. That makes sense about the collar, looking here Im trying to follow the path of thrust load. Guys were pretty smart then it seems.



Image


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:23 pm

That clarifies it. The design is better than I had thought it to be.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by speedytinc » Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:37 pm

In neutral, there could be more wear on the brass C collar in the "clutch collar" (throw out bearing)
Its taking all the clutch spring pressure in neutral.
This piece is normally running freely in high.
I have not seen many badly worn examples in a 100 years of service transmission.
How often do you see one that needs replacing?

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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by DanTreace » Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:50 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:38 am
I have read that the mag post oiler doesn't deliver much oil, and I have read that it works fine. Has anybody here ever disconnected the front end of the tube and run the engine to actually see how much oil it moves?
Steve


Below is a comparison of other's testing, and the outside magneto contact type oilers do perform well in my experience.

Birdhaven-Texas T Parts makes the High Capacity Outside oiler that mounts on the hogshead, they tested it to a std. magneto plug style outside oiler.(data on their website) and of course the High Capacity hogshead oiler out shines all others to deliver a massive amount of oil to the front of the engine.

The std.type (pictured below) Magneto Contact Oiler, tested at idle speed, puts out 32oz.(1 qt.) in 3 1/2 minutes. (Birdhaven test, Est. 500 RPM)

The later style large funnel Ford internal oil line puts out 16oz.(1/2 qt.) in 2 1/2 minutes. (Ford testing @ 500 RPM)



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The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:56 pm

The Texas T style oiler moves a LOT of oil, even at hot idle. I found it necessary to restrict the flow on mine by about 50% to avoid over-oiling the engine.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:56 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:22 pm
TXGOAT2 wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:03 pm
So, only the crankshaft thrust bearing would see increased wear with the car standing still and idling in neutral.
The [crankshaft] thrust bearing surface is not seeing any pressure from the clutch spring. There is near neutral pressure.
Not so. The compressed clutch spring pushes against the spring retainer cup. The retainer cup pulls on the output shaft/driving plate/brake drum assy. The brake drum is pulled against high speed clutch drum. The clutch drum pulls on the trans main shaft, which is bolted to the crankshaft flange. The crankshaft is pulled back against the forward thrust face of the rear main bearing.


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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:57 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 1:37 pm
In neutral, there could be more wear on the brass C collar in the "clutch collar" (throw out bearing)
Its taking all the clutch spring pressure in neutral.
Only true if the car is also moving while in neutral.

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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:59 pm

A quart in 3½ minutes sounds quite adequate to me. Added to Ford's pint in 2½ minutes it seems way more than adequate.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Idling in neutral for extended times, is it an issue?

Post by speedytinc » Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:34 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:56 pm
speedytinc wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:22 pm
TXGOAT2 wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:03 pm
So, only the crankshaft thrust bearing would see increased wear with the car standing still and idling in neutral.
The [crankshaft] thrust bearing surface is not seeing any pressure from the clutch spring. There is near neutral pressure.
Not so. The compressed clutch spring pushes against the spring retainer cup. The retainer cup pulls on the output shaft/driving plate/brake drum assy. The brake drum is pulled against high speed clutch drum. The clutch drum pulls on the trans main shaft, which is bolted to the crankshaft flange. The crankshaft is pulled back against the forward thrust face of the rear main bearing.
You are correct Jerry V.

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