MTFCA Forum

Hello, my name is Jacob and I am 14 years old and I have a 1924 TT Stakebed with a Warford aux. transmission. Anyways, it hasn’t ran in about 20-25 years and I am trying to restore it. The engine used to be completely free but it is not anymore. What happened was when I was cranking it (as I usually do to make sure it has not locked up) I was able to crank it a few revolutions before it got to about 3 o clock and locked up suddenly. I have done all the obvious things like making sure it has the full amount of oil, making sure the Warford was in neutral and not seized, adjusted the clutch lever as well as pulling the bendix and starter. At this point I am kind of stumped and my only other guess is that maybe something is bound up in the planetary gears. I hope I can find a solution before I completely remove and rebuild the engine. Any information is appreciated.
Thanks, Jacob Mangold

Have you removed the spark plugs and added some light oil, such as Marvel Mystery Oil, to each cylinder, then let it set overnight before trying to crank it with the spark plugs still out? It's unlikely that anything broke when it was not running. After doing the above, if it's still stuck, try putting it in high gear and the Warford in high gear and then see if you can rock the vehicle, if its sitting on its wheels. (Air up tires, etc, if needed) Sometimes rocking a vehicle in gear will break loose a stuck engine. Working the pedals might loosen a stuck transmission band. No need to get rough with them, just press and release them a dozen times or so. Also, try turning the engine backward. If it moves backward easily, it may indicate some kind of mechanical issue. If the engine has sat with the plugs out, it may have a dirt dauber nest in one or more cylinders.

I have put some mmo in the cylinders as well as pushed it back and forth. When I try to push it back and forth, it does not move, even in neutral the tires are aired up and I have even attached a ratcheting come along and tried to pull it forward with no luck. The engine has also never sat without the plugs in and previously it was stored in an enclosed storage unit. I’ve heard of putting mmo down the cylinders and jacking up the car by the crank so I might have to try that.
Thank You for your response,
Jacob Mangold

Welcome Jacob

I was exactly your age when my dad bought a Model T in boxes. Lots of fun. Lots of learning.

You're going to get lots of advice from folks here. My only advice for you right now is to find and buy a copy of the Model T Service Manual. It is often called the "Model T Bible". It clearly describes every possible job you will ever need to do on a Model T and is simply invaluable.

I am going to assume that your engine is original, meaning no major overhaul within the past 30 years. If this is the case, you should know that there are things called "magnet keepers" on the flywheel which hold down the magnets. These little flat plates are held down with brass screws. This is important to know, as brass parts have a practical lifespan before the metal changes a little bit and becomes brittle. When this happens, often times the screw heads will pop off, letting the keeper(s) fall down into the transmission. You may well have had one or more come off in the past (perhaps why the truck was out of service) and your cranking it has picked one up and like you are thinking, may have deposited itself into a place where things bind. I suspect that after fiddling with this one way and another (and another), you will finally have to pull the hog's head off of the top of the transmission to see if you can find what the bind is.

If you would post some pictures of your project, you will give the Forum Members a good idea of what you have and where it will make sense to start on your project.

Good for you for taking on this task. It will take time, patience, and spare $$ but it will all be well spent. My early experiences with mechanics propelled me into Watchmaking and finally into the Aerospace Industry making parts for the Space Shuttle and leading a team of engineers and technicians, among other things...you just never know where your project and new skills will take you, so Good Luck!

I freed up a crank by jacking the front of the car, putting the crank at 7:00, placing a cinder block under the crank and gently lowering the car with the crank on top of the block. Let sit overnight and chances are, the crank will slowly turn clockwise. Do it again the next night until it is broken loose. Jim Patrick

Jacob,

You say that the Warford is in neutral, but the fact that you can't roll the truck back & forth makes me wonder. Even though the T trans is in neutral, it's not uncommon for the high speed clutch to get stuck, simply from sitting. Please double check the Warford, or better yet, jack up a rear wheel and try cranking again.

I'm not a real big fan of forcing things that don't want to turn. If your trouble is just a stuck valve, you're definitely going to break something by jacking the car/truck up by the crank. Do more detective work before just applying brute force!

UPDATE: I reread your original message. Doesn't sound like a stuck high speed clutch. However, please take heed of my second paragraph.

Jacob.. by chance, although you didn't state in your opening post, did you try cranking the engine with the electric starter ? .... If the four mounting screws on the starter are not tight it would offset the starting gear against the flywheel and possibly jam so the engine would not turn over. Try removing the starter and then hand crank by hand.

Thank you guys for all the responses. To start, yes I have 100% made sure that the Warford is not engaged as I have taken off the service plate and inspected it. It shifts into all 3 gears and disconnects when in neutral. As for the starter, the original one is no longer in working order even after being taken apart.It seems like the field coils are damaged so I will be ordering a rebuilt one from langs soon. I will be taking off the hogs head next time have time to work on my truck. I also do not have many pictures at the moment but I will post the ones I do have and I will take more when I find time to work on it again.
Thanks again for all of the generous responses, Jacob Mangold

Here’s 2 pictures, one of the engine and one of the transmission from the inspection port.

Your brake band looks a bit odd. There is loose band material in the fork where the shaft goes through next to the spring. Can't tell from the picture, but looks like something might also be stuck under that edge of the band. It is possible some of that could be locking the brake band and causing the brake to bind. Also depending on what kind of oil you are using, the cold weather could be causing thick oil to bind the clutch disks, however if the Warford is in neutral, the clutch disks should not cause it to stop turning. In order to determine whether you have anything stuck on the magnets or starter ring gear, you would need to remove the hogs head to inspect.
Norm

Hi Jacob,
Welcome to the ever puzzling Model T hobby. I have seen crank ratchets modified to turn the engine both directions may be a possible option.
You definitely would want to try turning it backwards before forcing it forwards. You said it turned over just before it locked up? So a stuck
valve or piston is not very likely. Something falling into the triple gears or getting wedged in the ring gear or magnets sounds possible. Have
you tried going in through the starter hole and gently prying the starter ring gear backwards. You can also put a 9/16 wrench on the clutch
cover bolts through the trans inspection cover. Good Luck.
Craig.

Norm isn't that a large drum hogs head on a small drum trans?
Craig.

Do NOT modify the crank ratchet unless you remove it right after you use it to turn the engine backward for a test. If someone tries to crank start with that sort of modification almost a sure cause for injury. Because when the engine starts it will immediately grab the crank and push it forward very fast.
Norm

Norm,
That's right! I make one for setting valves. don't leave it on.
Craig.

Craig Leach wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:02 pm

Norm isn't that a large drum hogs head on a small drum trans?
Craig.

Yup, that's what he's got there.

Thank you for the suggestion Norm. That picture was from a while ago so I pulled the material of the brake band and it looked like it was a felt washer. I am not sure of the history of this truck because it belonged to my Great grandfather who has passed on. I do know that it was overhauled in the late 80’s or early 90’s but that is about it. The only modifications that I know of are the Warford transmission and the water pump. What does it mean if I had a large hogs head on a small drum transmission? I also have a 26 TT C cab that also belonged to him that is in storage. Could it have been swapped for that one? Anyways, I will try reversing the crank the next time I work on it which will most likely be next weekend. I’ll keep you guys posted.
Thanks for the responses,
Jacob Mangold

Great catch Craig L!

Jacob Mangold wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:41 pm

What does it mean if I had a large hogs head on a small drum transmission?

Thanks for the responses,
Jacob Mangold

It means that the brake band will not be centered on the brake drum. See how the band hangs over the back of the brake drum? It's not supposed to do that. The brake band should be located nearer to its neighbor, with maybe just an 1/8" gap between the two.

Wayne Sheldon wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 26, 2023 5:49 pm

Great catch Craig L!

Agreed. Not sure this would cause the lock up.
I am thinking a previous owner may have dropped a nut or washer down in.
Removing the HH will give you a good look @ the magnet keepers & possibly the dropped hardware.
Since you dont know the history, you should pull the inspection cover. Have a good look around. Could even be a busted rod or crank.

Will it still work with this hogs head Jerry? Will it cause me more problems down the road? Also, I don’t think a rod or the crankshaft would be busted because I was just cranking it by hand but I will look anyways.
Thanks for the responses, Jacob Mangold

I cringe when folks suggest ANY kind of force in freeing up a stuck engine. It has a very obvious mechanical interference somewhere. Figure out where it is. Does the crank turn backwards now? Grab the belt pulley and see if the engine turns backwards with the plugs out. Pull the tappet cover and see if all the valves are free to rise with help. Typical damage done with force is FAR more expensive than a couple gaskets in investigating the source.

FWIW. The worm gear in the rear axle of the TT makes it nearly impossible to push the vehicle or to rock it back and forth.

I forgot about that. The very low ratio would add further difficulty.

Jacob

you really must put the correct hog's head on the transmission. As it is, with the later one installed, your brake band is riding off of the brake drum due to it being positioned offset to the drum and expecting a much wider drum to be under it than there is...so now that you know that it MUST come off for replacement, you can take the opportunity to study what's going on inside.

Scott, how do I tell the difference between a large drum and small drum hogs head?
Thanks,
Jacob Mangold

Jacob
You mentioned that the “field coil was damaged”. That VERY LIKELY means that’s where your trouble began. Something has lodged in the triple gears, stuck between the magnets and dragging and etc.

It doesn’t take much to lock up the engine in that area. Remover the transmission cover. Drain the oil and remove the lower engine pan and take a good look to see if you can see what’s going on. Hopefully you can find the issue just by doing that. If you don’t find anything you may have to do more as others have mentioned.

Jacob,
The large drum HH has a larger bulge on the right side, should have two ears on the top to bolt it to the engine, the spacing between the
peddle shafts are not the same, the low & brake peddles should be the wide style & the mag post is a pipe threaded hole instead of a hole
with 3 screws.
Craig.

I believe the OP referred to the starter field coils being damaged, not the mag field coils.

That is correct Pat.

the large drum hog's head (meaning "wide" brake drum) has the pedal shafts spaced differently than the narrow drum hog's head.

your hog's head is meant for a wider brake drum...because your brake drum is "narrow" or smaller, your hog's head has the brake shaft much further "back" and the brake band is running off of the narrow drum...if your drum was the later, wide style, the brake band would fully cover the drum and would not be running off of the drum.

"Wide" brake drum transmissions were from late 1925 through to the end of production in 1927. Being that your truck is a '24, it correctly has the "narrow" brake drum in the transmission, but someone has fit the latter hog's head over it.

OP turned the motor over "a few revolutions" then it locked up.
Smells like a dropped piece of hardware finally jammed.

One blatantly obvious clue makes it easy to ID a 26-27 hogshead. It has those two "ears" on top with holes in them for bolting it to the back of the engine. All previous hogsheads lack the ears.

WELL waiting to see but no one said pushing a TT is easy
The Worm drive rearend
Try turning it over with the crank
With aux trans in neutral
Also had mine lock up once in the high speed clutch
With the hand brake pulled back check the clutch figure see if they are loose and set right
Nv bob
BTW brake & Rev. Band appear to have soft material between the band ears and the hogs head?

The idea that you can't push a TT truck because of the worm drive is a myth. My '22 TT has the lower-geared rear axle (7 1/4:1) and a Muncie auxillary transmission. With the Muncie in neutral and the truck on level ground I can push it with one hand.

Worm drive gear boxes are known to be hard to turn from the output shaft. This is because they usually have a much lower ratio (10, 12, 20:1 or even lower) than what these trucks have.

Put your Warford in high or overdrive and the Ford transmission in high and you should be able push the truck backward a little to back the engine up.

Good luck and welcome to the affliction. Bob

Jacob,

Here's the bottom line. Barring anything simple, like a stuck Bendix, something is wrong either within the engine, or the transmission. Pushing, prodding, oiling and guessing may break it free, but it won't fix anything. Until you get "into" the engine & trans, you'll have the same problem you began with and the next time it shows up, the engine may be running and something might actually break. Count yourself lucky that it jammed up only while cranking. Further guessing and theorizing is fun, but it's time wasted, (mostly), that you can be using to get to the absolute root cause.

What makes me wonder is the fact that I could not push it even though the Warford was in neutral. That should have disconnected the read end completely and I should have been able to push it forward with the engine locked up. I will keep you guys posted on if I get the engine freed.
Thank you guys for your responses,
Jacob Mangold

Parking brakes could be stuck.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:43 pm

Parking brakes could be stuck.

Yes, as in brake shoes stuck to the drums with rust from sitting a long while.

It might not be this but it has happened, cranking it slow then it locked up, one thin to look at is the u joint pin might have fallen just enough to lock up everything, Bob

FATMAN wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:00 pm

It might not be this but it has happened, cranking it slow then it locked up, one thin to look at is the u joint pin might have fallen just enough to lock up everything, Bob

That is another possibility. Its easy enough to check. Remove the upper & lower pin access cover bolts & have a look.
The pin would normally fall straight down.

I too am restoring a TT left that I inherited. The blessing of this forum is all of the great suggestions everyone is willing to throw at any problem encountered. My suggestion would be to try raising the rear wheels off the ground. Do your best to get the aux transmission in neutral. See if you can hand rotate the rear wheels. If they rotate, then you can rule out brakes and anything else rearwards of the aux trans. You can divide it in half at least and then concentrate either on the front or the back.

If is a 26_27 Horseheads it will have 2 ears with 5/8 holes that bolt to the back of a 26 or 27 block. They used the wide brake band.

I fear that like others have stated it may be a magnet keeper, nut or bolt that has fallen off and into the triple gears but hopefully not. You might consider buying an inexpensive scope on eBay that will attach to your smart phone so you can have a good look in that area. It may give you an opportunity to remove what ever if any thing that may be causing the problem. Jacob good luck, it’s always inspiring to see young folks get involved. Let us know if we can help.
Best John

Ok guys, I got to work on my T for a little bit today and I ruled out the crankshaft pulley from being the issue. I am going to check the driveshaft and pull the hogs head on Sunday. Hopefully I get to the bottom of this.
Thank you guys for the responses,
Jacob Mangold

Jacob Mangold wrote: ↑

Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:39 pm

Ok guys, I got to work on my T for a little bit today and I ruled out the crankshaft pulley from being the issue. I am going to check the driveshaft and pull the hogs head on Sunday. Hopefully I get to the bottom of this.
Thank you guys for the responses,
Jacob Mangold

Have a look in the crankcase by removing the bottom inspection cover. Easy to do, and who knows

Hello guys. I am working on my model t and I have all of the bolts out of the hogs head and I can’t remove it. It’s stuck and I can pull it up and out. Suggestions?
Thank you for the responses,
Jacob Mangold

Make sure you’ve removed ALL the bolts around the engine pan and the ones where it connects to the drive shaft area. You probably have already. Carefully use a butter knife or thin dry wall knife and very carefully tap on it and carefully in different places around the edges. Eventually it will start to move upwards. Take your time and don’t forget to free up the drive shaft side too.

Sometimes they move fairly easy and sometimes they it takes more effort. Good luck.

And as always others will have ideas too. But this a good way to start.

Glad you solved the mystery, now you can move forward in your efforts to bring your TT back to life.

Thank you guys for all of the help. I got the engine unsiezed but it was not the transmission. After I got the hogs head off and I could see nothing binding it up I decided to pull the head just to take a look. Well, in cylinder #2, the was corrosion at the top of the cylinder and the piston was stuck because the head gasket was leaky and old. Anyways, I took a 2x4 and a mallet and tapped the piston down and it came free. I wiped out each cylinder and none of the cylinder walls were scored. I installed a new head gasket and torqued it and it turns freely. I also used the thumb method of checking compression and there was enough to blow my thumb out on each cylinder. The only thing left I need to do is replace the gaskets at the back of the transmission which seems like a pain in the rear. Does anyone know how to do that when you have a aux transmission?
Thank you guys for helping me get to the bottom of this,
Jacob Mangold

If you didnt remove the bottom bolts @ the 4th main, cut a 1/2 4th main gasket. Ultra silicone in, especially the corners.
No need to pull the aux transmission. If you unbolted it & ruined the gasket, clean the area & split the new gasket diagonally @ the top. Fit it in with the 4th main pulled back a bit.

In situations like yours, where light corrosion occurs in a cylinder for any reason, turning the engine backward will usually free it. Turning it forward causes the piston and rings to scrape the corrosion and debris off the cylinder walls until it jams the piston.

The engine turns over smoothly now. I poured mmo down each cylinder and it turns very smoothly now.
Thank you for the responses,
Jacob Mangold

Pretty sure this is a scammer profile, guys.

What 14 YEAR OLD owns 2 Model TTs and a Model A and talks so casually about rebuilding such hardware?

RonGlowczewski wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:58 am

Pretty sure this is a scammer profile, guys.

What 14 YEAR OLD owns 2 Model TTs and a Model A and talks so casually about rebuilding such hardware?

How is it exactly that we were scammed? Anyone get cheated by this kid? Anyone lose any money? It's happened many times on this and the "other" forum, (when it existed), that a young guy was treated with suspicion and derision. Good luck getting young folks involved with that kind of treatment.

Looks like he exists, and is 14. It's none of our business how he comes to own Model T's. He was respectful and asked informed questions. Wow, what a scammer

I had old cars and a license when I was 14. Tough luck for the Polar Bears....

When I was Jacob's age, I was doing the exact same work on a '19 touring...making mistakes, and learning some more, and finally got it running. I also helped my father restore the AA bus that is now at the Ford Museum ferrying passengers to/from the parking lot. Sad to see that it lost its factory sidemounts..,they were really cool but I understand that they needed the wheels on other vehicles. At 16 I completely rewooded the side and rear doors of that beast.

Not every young man wants to be Prom Queen.

I’m not a scammer but maybe just a little mechanically inclined . Anyways, I inherited the old Fords from my Great Grandfather in case you wanted to know. I plan on restoring all of them with the 26 being my next project.

And yes, that is my PG baseball profile. I am surprised that you found that Jerry.

Jacob - you probably know this but if not, it would do you well to make contact with your local Model T Club. We help each other with knowledge, tools and extra hands.


Southern Nevada Model T Club <https://southernnevadamodeltclub.org/>
c/o Terry Sago <cherylsago@yahoo.com>
Las Vegas, NV 89131-1026

An excellent suggestion.

I was thinking about joining SNMTC once I get it running. I am not too far off from getting it roadworthy.
Thank you guys for all of your help,
Jacob Mangold

Don't wait to join the club. They can be a great resource and I guarantee you'll learn something.

Jacob Mangold wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:41 am

And yes, that is my PG baseball profile. I am surprised that you found that Jerry.

Jacob,

Please don't think I'm a stalker It took all of 2 minutes on a Google search to get that. Happy to have you with us.

Oh I know that it is an easy search Jerry. You’re all good, I don’t think you are a stalker

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:43 am

RonGlowczewski wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:58 am

Pretty sure this is a scammer profile, guys.

What 14 YEAR OLD owns 2 Model TTs and a Model A and talks so casually about rebuilding such hardware?

How is it exactly that we were scammed? Anyone get cheated by this kid? Anyone lose any money? It's happened many times on this and the "other" forum, (when it existed), that a young guy was treated with suspicion and derision. Good luck getting young folks involved with that kind of treatment.

Looks like he exists, and is 14. It's none of our business how he comes to own Model T's. He was respectful and asked informed questions. Wow, what a scammer

jm.png

GOOD GOD, some people can't take a joke. I've never heard of a person this young talking so technical about a Model T before. Nice stalking skills though, Jerry.

Jerry would not stalk you unless you had a mercury bodied speedster or two.

He is also a wealth of information.

Jerry is a great guy....definitely knows Model T's.

Here’s an idea to advance the hobby. As I have learned from my past post sometimes a private message/email is better suited to help a friend out. We all make mistakes, I am the worst of all. The good thing that there are some solutions that can minimize an issue with a post that you want to correct or revise. On your own post you can look to the upper right of your post and see an icon of a pen/pencil. By selecting that icon the forum will allow you to delete or revise your post. The only caveat is that you cannot leave your post blank unless no one has posted after you. If that’s the case you can delete your post entirely. So if someone has posted after you there must be at least 20 letters, symbols or numbers placed in the post to submit a revised post. In addition perhaps a PM to a poster to clear the air. Best John

Oh, brother, here we go again. Some of you may not have been with us long enough to remember Garrett. He introduced himself as a thirteen-year-old middle school student who was interested in Model T's. The first response to his post was "Go away." Some forum regulars assumed that he couldn't really be thirteen because he came across as socially awkward and his writing was too good. They theorized that he was a middle aged troll who was out to make them look like fools. Well, they did, but they did it to themselves. Dick Lodge and I both spent a few minutes on simple Google searches and confirmed that the kid was legit. That didn't sway the hostiles. Dick even arranged to meet Garrett and his dad and take them for a Model T ride, and posted pictures, but the unfriendly reception by some on the forum continued. It didn't take long for Garrett to decide that he wasn't all that interested in Model T's after all. Since then he has graduated from high school and college and is now putting his writing skills to work as a newspaper reporter. Last September when I was on my way to Michigan he went for a ride in my T, but I think that flame was extinguished long ago. It makes me sad.

Now that Jerry has confirmed reality, I hope the leapers-to-conclusions will desist.
And Jacob, be aware that most of us welcome you and wish you the best.

"Remember, I'm pullin' for ya. We're all in this together."

As a former teacher, I had the good fortune to work with a lot of accomplished young people who wrote and spoke well. It is definitely not a skill reserved for old codgers. What I suppose caught many off guard was the fact that here was a young person interested in Model T's. They are out there, and should be encouraged and mentored. Indeed, an effort should be made to bring them into the fold or there will be no hobby in the future. Believe it or not, there are still kids interested in getting their hands dirty, not just staring into a smartphone screen. Go back to your chapters and come up with some ideas to get kids involved....we'll all benefit.

I am glad to have so many people interested in me and my T. I am also proud to be into the Model T hobby. There is a ton of knowledge on these forums and I am thankful for all of your guy’s input and help. I am excited to get my T running and I will keep you guys posted about it for sure.
Thanks a bunch,
Jacob Mangold