MTFCA Forum

I think i fixed the "surging" problem with cleaning gas line and sediment bowls. It is still a little weaker than it used to be going from first to second with a mild up slope. This last weekend while trouble shooting, one of the buzz coils wasnt sparking at all while running but later i looked at it and it was sparking fine. also before starting, when i turn the key on to battery, the coils dont always start up buzzing. is that normal? I push the starter button and i might hear them start buzzing or maybe not. I guess what im asking is what is normal with the coils?

When you turn the key to battery, one coil may buzz, or none may buzz, depending on whether the engine happens to be stopped where one of the timer contacts is closed or not. Turning the engine, whether with the starter or the crank, will usually cause one or another of the coils to buzz. With the engine running, all the coils should deliver sparks to the spark plugs, one at a time, in accordance with the firing order. If any one coil doesn't, there is a problem with that coil, or the wiring or the timer contact associated with that coil. The easiest thing to check would probably be the timer. They often need cleaning and oiling. I would NOT mess with the coils without reading up on them. I would NOT attempt to adjust the coils without access to service equipment.

A coil wont buzz until contact is made in the timer. The coils dont all buzz @ the same time.
If you turn on the ignition & dont hear a buzz, sometimes moving the spark lever will make that contact.
You dont want the coil to fire until the piston is in the proper position @ just past TDC with a charge of fuel present.
You may need your coil points cleaned at the least. Just having a buzz dosent mean your coil is firing or firing well.
High probability they need to be tuned. On an ECCT preferably.

There is a huge difference between a Model T engine that runs and one that runs well. You can get a Model T engine to run by adjusting the ignition coil points by ear but it will not run anywhere near its optimum.

Here is a link with a general overview of the Model T ignition system with detailed instruction coil testing and tuning.

https://youtu.be/RYcGD-8Ol3s?t=364

Good information here Bart. Your coils need the new type capacitors if they don't have them and they NEED to be set up on an HCC tester or a similar device. It's essential to the T's proper operation. Your car will never run as good as one with properly set up coils. Don't waste your time, as I did, on buzz boxes or setup by ear garbage. Capacitors and testing. well worth it.

The easiest thing to check would probably be the timer. They often need cleaning and oiling.

If it's a brush timer (like a New Day), clean but don't oil. Brush and roller timers can both be worn, with uneven surfaces that cause skipping at higher speeds.

A mixture of several things lead to a good running engine.. such as drivers use of the spark lever on the steering column and the throttle, coil physical and electrical condition, commutator physical and electrical condition, battery condition, magneto output and physical condition... Not even mentioning what others may say is a problem with fuel system or carburetor. As long as there's a good physical and electrical calibration to the ignition The next step may be towards checking the fuel system components.

I send my coils to Ron Patterson (the Coilman) to have them rebuilt and adjusted. If yours haven't been done by someone who specializes in coil maintenance, I would suggest you do so. Ron installs new capacitors and contacts and adjusts them for optimum operation.

A Model T will run on three cylinders but lacks power on hills, etc. Could be a bum coil, could also mean the contacts in the coilbox need polishing or adjustment. If the coilbox contacts aren't making good contact with the coils you could have a coil operating intermittently. If the coils move fore and aft in the box the contacts are suspect. Bend the contacts out a little or wedge something against the front of the coils to hold them back against the coil box contacts.

Good luck!

One thing not mentioned is the contact inside the coil box. Sometimes if the coils buzz without the spark wires or with the spark plug wires on but not connected to the plugs your spark will jump to the closest ground. If the wood of the coil box happens to be damp, which happens easily when you wash the car or on a rainy day, your spark might be grounded through the wood of the coil box and burn a carbon path through the wood. There are new coil box parts which are a type of plastic but look like wood. These are less likely to get a carbon line burnt. Also with the coil box. The contacts where the wires are connected need to be clean and especially where the heads contact the copper inside the box. Sometimes it is even good to clean and solder those locations. The spring contacts need to fit tight to the contacts on the coils and lastly you need a good lid to push the coils down into the box to make good contact with the ground strip at the bottom.
Norm

Thanks Norm, you're absolutely correct. If you are assured that the contacts inside the coil box are original, those are the best ones to clean and to resolder the connecting screw posts. The original contacts were bronze, the repro contacts now available are not bronze... . The original bronze contacts will give and retain tension on the coil unit contacts a lot better than the reproduction

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:46 pm

When you turn the key to battery, one coil may buzz, or none may buzz, depending on whether the engine happens to be stopped where one of the timer contacts is closed or not. Turning the engine, whether with the starter or the crank, will usually cause one or another of the coils to buzz. With the engine running, all the coils should deliver sparks to the spark plugs, one at a time, in accordance with the firing order. If any one coil doesn't, there is a problem with that coil, or the wiring or the timer contact associated with that coil. The easiest thing to check would probably be the timer. They often need cleaning and oiling. I would NOT mess with the coils without reading up on them. I would NOT attempt to adjust the coils without access to service equipment.

Thanks Pat!!!! I was afraid of that timer. thought i would mess something up. is it easy to take the cover off and can you mess it up putting it back?
i assume when you clean it you add a thin oil like 3 and 1 ? or do you use one of those electrical friendly sprays?

speedytinc wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 28, 2023 5:53 pm

A coil wont buzz until contact is made in the timer. The coils dont all buzz @ the same time.
If you turn on the ignition & dont hear a buzz, sometimes moving the spark lever will make that contact.
You dont want the coil to fire until the piston is in the proper position @ just past TDC with a charge of fuel present.
You may need your coil points cleaned at the least. Just having a buzz dosent mean your coil is firing or firing well.
High probability they need to be tuned. On an ECCT preferably.

Thanks John!

After cleaning and oiling your comutator, did you get a better running engine?

IF you have an original type roller timer, they need frequent oiling with a light motor oil or Marvel Mystery Oil. They need cleaning from time to time, and wiping out the housing with a clean cloth is usually sufficient. They are subject to wear. Access is limited, and you need to be careful with the wires connected to the timer to avoid damaging them. If you haven't worked on a timer before, I'd suggest giving it a squirt or two of Marvel Mystery Oil. The original type timer ill have a metal cover and an oil cup. Oiling it may get it working better without taking it apart, if it is gummy and lacks lubrication. The Ford Service Manual gives information on how to service the original style timer. If you have a New Day type timer, do not oil it. There is a lot of discussion on various types of timers and how to service them on this site. Besides the original Ford style timer, there are several aftermarket styles.

Contrary to information posted above; the currently made reproduction Model T Ford ignition coil points are properly made to Ford print specifications with the correct Bridge Phosphor Bronze cushion springs, all correct materials and workmanship.
They are the best quality coil points made since the 1950's.
Ron Patterson

I believe the comment about incorrect contact material was directed & the soft COIL BOX contacts, not points.
Which I found to be true. Use the original contacts, even if they need to be salvaged from another box.

Thanks John for clarifying, and eliminating, any confusion on the topic

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:52 am

I send my coils to Ron Patterson (the Coilman) to have them rebuilt and adjusted. If yours haven't been done by someone who specializes in coil maintenance, I would suggest you do so. Ron installs new capacitors and contacts and adjusts them for optimum operation.

A Model T will run on three cylinders but lacks power on hills, etc. Could be a bum coil, could also mean the contacts in the coilbox need polishing or adjustment. If the coil box contacts aren't making good contact with the coils you could have a coil operating intermittently. If the coils move fore and aft in the box the contacts are suspect. Bend the contacts out a little or wedge something against the front of the coils to hold them back against the coil box contacts.

Good luck!

Thanks! i did see one coil was not firing so i tapped it lightly with a screw driver as someone suggested and it started firing. then i drove it and it ran great and climbed my small hills easily. what a difference. Then it went back to not firing again. a light tap and back on track. then off again. So I did take off that timer cover and there was some gunk inside so i cleaned it with a rag rubbed a tiny bit of 3 and 1 oil with my finger. (remember i dont know what I'm doing) while i was in there i saw a very thin brass plate that stays on the car when you take off the cover that was damaged. There were tiny parts of it that were torn and even folded back a little. this damage was next to the shaft. I know this needs to be replaced. I live in Colorado, are there any experts out here? if not i think i should have your coil man go over my coil or coils. Can you direct me to his contact information?
I've never seen a better bunch of helpful guys in a forum anywhere. You guys are amazing!

Get rid of the brass cover and just install a modern cam seal. The vendors have them. Link with example courtesy of Dan Trease’s post.
viewtopic.php?t=18699

Send them to Midnight Coil Repair

https://www.facebook.com/MidnightCoilRe ... tid=ZbWKwL

To have them refurbished and tuned for equal and consistent firing Time using the ECCT. It's the only tool that permits tuning coils for equal firing time by actually measuring coil firing Time for optimal enging performance.

The vintage HCCT measures average coil current as an indirect approximation of coil firing time because there was no accurate way to measure coil firing time back in the day. That's not the case today so no reason to settle for indirect approximation.

Mike .... I am fortunate enough to still have the strength to dig out those small capacitors in the plastic coils and I'm thankful I don't need the 75-ton press for help. ..... Wow, and he only charges $10 to change the capacitor ? Maybe I should sign up for Facebook...... Ha Ha !